St Pancras to stratford

[Yorkswatcher]

Now wanting a little reason to travel on the HS1 I thought I would look at this route as I had to go from that area to romford.

I checked the train website out it gave me the time the price and the route.

"St Pan to Stratford International and then bus to Stratford."

When I arrive at the station get my ticket from the machine. As per above.

Then I try to go through the gate and hey its locked up for me. So I say to the guy huh why is this not work.

That ticket is not vaild for this as it for stratford and not stratford international.

Is this right or are SE trains pulling a fast one.

 

[Clip]

Did the ticket say 'Valid on HS1' ?

 

[bb21]

How much did you pay?

 

[46100ROYALSCOT]

Travel from St Pancras to Stratford International

quote NRE : Access to Stratford International station

Passengers travelling to and from Stratford International are currently unable to access the station directly. A bus service will run between a location near to Platform 11 at Stratford Domestic station and Stratford International.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Interesting, because I've bought CDRs ( at St Pancras ) for St Pancras to Stratford International ( for the purpose of chasing a 395 or two ) and had no problems getting through the barriers with them.

 

[Clip]

Interesting, because I've bought CDRs ( at St Pancras ) for St Pancras to Stratford International ( for the purpose of chasing a 395 or two ) and had no problems getting through the barriers with them.

Thats because you bought one fro International. Think the Op just got one to Romford - not valid on HS1 because of the stations not being linked.

Though we do need clarification.

 

[Yorkswatcher]

No I got my ticket to Stratford I paid £2.65 as I have a DSB.

And as per my booking enquiry which I followed.

tationArrDepFacilities
London St Pancras 22:25SE
Stratford International22:31
Train continues to Faversham
StationArrDepFacilities
Stratford International 22:36SE

Stratford London22:41
Bus terminates at Stratford London

 

[Clip]

No I got my ticket to Stratford I paid £2.65 as I have a DSB.

And as per my booking enquiry which I followed.

tationArrDepFacilities
London St Pancras 22:25SE
Stratford International22:31
Train continues to Faversham
StationArrDepFacilities
Stratford International 22:36SE

Stratford London22:41
Bus terminates at Stratford London

Ok what did it say on your ticket? As they are not linked at the moment stratford and stratford international are 2 different stations.(I believe)

Did the ticket say 'Valid on HS1' ?

 

[ainsworth74]

Did the ticket say ROUTE: PLUS HIGH SPEED? If it didn't then your ticket was not valid on HS1 hence why the gate rejected it.

 

[MCR247]

Travel from St Pancras to Stratford International

quote NRE : Access to Stratford International station

Passengers travelling to and from Stratford International are currently unable to access the station directly. A bus service will run between a location near to Platform 11 at Stratford Domestic station and Stratford International.

Thats helpful :?

 

[Yorkswatcher]

Any route I think it said.

But this is not the point its the point that you can buy a ticket as per my route plan above which shows travel on the HS1 but when it comes to it you cant get on the thing.

You will see the bus is included.

 

[Clip]

Your route plan is different to the ticket you buy.. You have to ensure that you buy the ticket that says PLUS HIGH SPEED. If you dont buy that ticket then you cannot go on the high speed train.

 

[LexyBoy]

St Pancreas to Stratford International is £3.55 with your railcard. Putting Stratford as the destination gives the journey with bus connection at Stratford Int, but if you check fares there are none available.

The £2.65 ticket is London Terminals to Stratford. HS1 is not a valid route, hence your ticket was rejected.

Clearly there is an issue with the TVMs at St Pancras, which should offer the PLUS HIGH SPEED fare as the default, since there's no way of using the ticket otherwise!

edit: Looking at the journey Kings Cross - Stratford, NRE happily suggests walking to St Pancras, then Stratford Int and Stratford with the £2.65 ticket Not sure what to make of that!

 

[Hydro]

Did the ticket say ROUTE: PLUS HIGH SPEED? If it didn't then your ticket was not valid on HS1 hence why the gate rejected it.

The St. Pancs gates are crap, they will reject the "Any Permitted" tickets for a journey I do frequently into Kent, even though they are completely valid. I wouldn't trust those gates to determine if my ticket is valid or not based on their rejection.

 

[Mojo]

Did the ticket say ROUTE: PLUS HIGH SPEED? If it didn't then your ticket was not valid on HS1 hence why the gate rejected it.

Tickets routed ''Any permitted'' are also valid on HS1 if travelling via HS1 is a valid route.

To the OP, what was the origin and destination of your ticket?

Presumably it's London Terminals to Stratford London. It is of my opinion (and I've said it in a post before which I can't find), that it is not a valid route travelling via Stratford International. However, the East Coast website says it is a valid route.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

I had this problem once. Had a Zone U1 to Chelmsford route Any Permitted and was refused travel on HS1 by the guard even though the route was valid by the 3 mile rule. After a bit of back and forth with Southeastern they admitted I was right but that it was an anomalous fare and route Any Permitted should not be available, and it would be fixed.

 

[Yorkswatcher]

Tickets routed ''Any permitted'' are also valid on HS1 if travelling via HS1 is a valid route.

To the OP, what was the origin and destination of your ticket?

Presumably it's London Terminals to Stratford London. It is of my opinion (and I've said it in a post before which I can't find), that it is not a valid route travelling via Stratford International. However, the East Coast website says it is a valid route.

Thats my ticket I even checked with on the SE website gives me the same route and price. Nothing about HST1 or not HST1 as I have seen on some other tickets.

I even purchased my ticket from the SE ticket machine at SP

 

[CompactDstrxion]

There's a negative easement on this specific journey 600069

Customers travelling from Stratford Domestic station to London St Pancras
may not travel via Stratford International. This easement applies in both
directions

Where is this Stratford Domestic station though? :P

 

[LexyBoy]

There's a negative easement on this specific journey 600069

Customers travelling from Stratford Domestic station to London St Pancras
may not travel via Stratford International. This easement applies in both
directions

Where is this Stratford Domestic station though? :P

That's interesting - would that explain why the National Rail site allows use of a London Terminals - Stratford ticket via International when Kings Cross in input as origin, but not when St Pancras is?

 

[Clip]

There's a negative easement on this specific journey 600069

Customers travelling from Stratford Domestic station to London St Pancras
may not travel via Stratford International. This easement applies in both
directions

Where is this Stratford Domestic station though? :P

A bus ride from Stratford international I reckon.

though i have no idea why they bother calling it Domestic - thats just silly.

 

[Mojo]

Negative easements are unenforceable owing to the fact that someone following the instructions of the routeing guide would have no reason to come across one.

Here is a previous post by me on this subject: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=413165#post413165

Also see my post #41 (and the posts of those who disagree with me) as to why I think travelling via International is not valid: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35773

However, if a journey planner gives that as a valid result (as the East Coast website does, without stating multiple tickets are req'd) then I cannot see how they can argue otherwise.

 

[Railjet]

Here is a previous post by me on this subject: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthr...ink. Have I done something naughty? :oops:

 

[Mojo]

Whoops, sorry I posted a link to a thread in the wrong forum.

Try this one: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=453954&highlight=Negative+Easement#post453954

 

[Railjet]

Thanks, Mojo. Has the negative easements issue ever been tested?

It's so obviously ridiculous you would think that NR would change it. NR describes it as "A list of easements, where Routeing Guide rules have been relaxed for certain routes." Imagine if they described it as "A list of easements, where Routeing Guide rules have been relaxed, or negatively relaxed, for certain routes.":-x

Surely if they were serious about it, they would call it "additional restrictions" or something similar, and qualify the relevant sections and instructions in the Routeing Guide.

I know there have been many threads about ridiculous easements, but the Easements section is a bit like a beautiful painting you go back to admire several times, and each time find something new.

30219
Customers travelling from London to Heysham Port may not travel via Douglas Isle of Man. This easements applies in both directions.

I mean, really.

 

[John @ home]

the Easements section is a bit like a beautiful painting you go back to admire several times, and each time find something new.

I agree that each time you find something new, but the similarity to a beautiful painting had escaped me!

 

[Yorkswatcher]

Here is the reply. However you can still book the service on East coast trains website so I guess you will be able to on all others.

London Terminals to Stratford Regional station



Further to your enquiry, I thank you for sending a copy of your ticket so that we can look into the problem that you encountered.




I can confirm that the London Terminals to Stratford Regional ticket you have sent is not valid on your specified route between St Pancras and Stratford Regional. The ticket is valid for use between Liverpool Street station and Stratford Regional station.




Whilst the ticket does state 'any permitted route', the Highspeed route is not a permitted route for this ticket. This is because Southeastern do not receive any of the money for this particular ticket as the route is operated by another Train Operator. The ticket is also not marked with a '+' symbol so it is not valid on most parts of the London Underground network. However I note that there is an easement permitting use of the ticket on the Central line between Liverpool Street and Stratford Regional only.




I am aware that this particular journey has caused us problems in the past, due to an error on our ticketing system which resulted in the ticket displaying as valid for the route on our and National Rail Enquiries' website. This was brought to the attention of our Website and Fares Managers, and I believe this has now been corrected. Whilst the route is still shown on our website if you enter 'London Terminals' (or 'London all stations') and 'Stratford Regional' as the origin and destination stations, with 'Stratford International' as the via station, it appears that the tickets cannot be purchased online and the route has been disabled.




If you wish to travel from St Pancras to Stratford Regional station, you will need to purchase the ticket routed 'London Terminals' to 'Stratford International' with a 'Plus High Speed' routeing. This will also permit travel on the bus service to Stratford Regional, and the ticket is priced £3.55 for an Anytime Day Single with your railcard.




I am sorry for the inconvenience that you have been caused by this, and thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention. I trust this letter clarifies the position and you do not encounter similar problems again.




Yours sincerely




Daniel Westlake

Customer Relations Officer

Southeastern

 

[yorkie]

Whilst the ticket does state 'any permitted route', the Highspeed route is not a permitted route for this ticket. This is because Southeastern do not receive any of the money for this particular ticket as the route is operated by another Train Operator.

That's not the actual reason, and money allocation does not determine validity.

The ticket is also not marked with a '+' symbol so it is not valid on most parts of the London Underground network.

Interesting, he appears to be suggesting that if the ticket did have a '+' symbol it would be valid on "most" parts of the LU network?

 

[b0b]

He also doesn't say on what basis the ticket is not valid. I can accept that he claims the validity is an error, but they still have to honor the ticket and correct the error...

 

[LexyBoy]

Whilst the ticket does state 'any permitted route', the Highspeed route is not a permitted route for this ticket. This is because Southeastern do not receive any of the money for this particular ticket as the route is operated by another Train Operator. The ticket is also not marked with a '+' symbol so it is not valid on most parts of the London Underground network. However I note that there is an easement permitting use of the ticket on the Central line between Liverpool Street and Stratford Regional only.

That's not an explanation! Who prices the ticket and where the revenue goes is irrelevant to the passenger. The validity of a route is determined by the Routeing Guide, not by where the money goes.

I am aware that this particular journey has caused us problems in the past, due to an error on our ticketing system which resulted in the ticket displaying as valid for the route on our and National Rail Enquiries' website. This was brought to the attention of our Website and Fares Managers, and I believe this has now been corrected. Whilst the route is still shown on our website if you enter 'London Terminals' (or 'London all stations') and 'Stratford Regional' as the origin and destination stations, with 'Stratford International' as the via station, it appears that the tickets cannot be purchased online and the route has been disabled.

It does seem to have been fixed on the National Rail website.

More relevant is whether the ticket machines at STP show this fare! IMO they should not offer the "Any Permitted" fare if there is no valid route from STP to SRA.

 

[RJ]

Negative easements are unenforceable owing to the fact that someone following the instructions of the routeing guide would have no reason to come across one.

The NRG in Detail states in bold font "When you have chosen your journey, look to see if an easement applies to it."
This forms one of the documents under "Instructions and help" on the ATOC site so anyone choosing not to read it only has themselves to blame if their route is actually forbidden by an easement.