Staff down tools at Manchester Victoria following assault 19/12/2019

[sportzbar]

Yes

Sigh.. isn't that part of what the job of the railway is? I don't say it is the responsibility of the dispatch team specifically, but the railway must provide appropriate information and support on the platform.

If dispatch team down tools, it worsens the status: more passengers and more frustration. Trains don't depart or arrive, more people let down, this time by the very people standing yards from them. Ordinary people, vulnerable people, old people, families out shopping - every one of them put at risk.

Think of the last time you were in a large crowd of people and felt unsafe. Or take any crowd disaster in history, and imagine if it would be improved by staff walking off when they are needed most, or would have been improved by staff bring there if there were none.

The TOCs here and NR need to up their game: if the staff are sufficient asked not doing it, they must go, if they are not providing sufficient, the companies need a bollocking.

I would be happy were a reasonable trade union to organise a strike properly in response to incidents or a trend of incidents on the staff to ask for more security and support, but a walkout at times of need is reckless.

I understand your point put can I just confirm that what you are actually saying is that the job description requires that some one who is in a safety critical position should put up with verbal abuse regardless of the fact that it may cause them to make a mistake?

 

[Kimi]

Yes

I understand your point put can I just confirm that what you are actually saying is that the job description requires that some one who is in a safety critical position should put up with verbal abuse regardless of the fact that it may cause them to make a mistake?

I don't write the job description nor do I recruit and test for ability to manage platform customer train relationship.. but in answer to your question - if air crew has verbal abuse from a passenger, they should walk off the job? Does this also apply during an emergency landing? Of course not. You don't walk when you are needed most.

The concern of the staff was their own perceived safety from verbal abuse - not their risk of failing at their safety critical function. Crowd safety (crush, platform fall) are as important as being able to see if a passenger is stuck in a door.

As you saw, but did not quote, my point is that their actions endangered people and would have been better handled by appropriate trade union representation, and that if this is a persistent difficulty then the TOC/NR need to sort it out.

 

[Bantamzen]

Sigh.. isn't that part of what the job of the railway is? I don't say it is the responsibility of the dispatch team specifically, but the railway must provide appropriate information and support on the platform.

If dispatch team down tools, it worsens the status: more passengers and more frustration. Trains don't depart or arrive, more people let down, this time by the very people standing yards from them. Ordinary people, vulnerable people, old people, families out shopping - every one of them put at risk.

Think of the last time you were in a large crowd of people and felt unsafe. Or take any crowd disaster in history, and imagine if it would be improved by staff walking off when they are needed most, or would have been improved by staff bring there if there were none.

The TOCs here and NR need to up their game: if the staff are sufficient asked not doing it, they must go, if they are not providing sufficient, the companies need a bollocking.

I would be happy were a reasonable trade union to organise a strike properly in response to incidents or a trend of incidents on the staff to ask for more security and support, but a walkout at times of need is reckless.

I don't write the job description nor do I recruit and test for ability to manage platform customer train relationship.. but in answer to your question - if air crew has verbal abuse from a passenger, they should walk off the job? Does this also apply during an emergency landing? Of course not. You don't walk when you are needed most.

The concern of the staff was their own perceived safety from verbal abuse - not their risk of failing at their safety critical function. Crowd safety (crush, platform fall) are as important as being able to see if a passenger is stuck in a door.

As you saw, but did not quote, my point is that their actions endangered people and would have been better handled by appropriate trade union representation, and that if this is a persistent difficulty then the TOC/NR need to sort it out.

Imagine you were the person being threatened with physical violence, would you continue or would you walk away? I personally know what it is like to be in that situation when you are doing your job, some people just say these things in the heat of the moment, but there are some who mean it. You can see it in their eyes, in their body language. I don't know if this was the case in this incident, but no-one, and I do mean no-one, should be expected to put up with that when they have no means to defend themselves.

Are you seriously expecting station staff to put themselves in harm's way? Would you?

 

[Djgr]

So a passenger, for instance, running towards a moving train with intent to board it should not be shouted at to stand clear. Or persons endangering their own safety in any other way?

That is not shouting as routine. It is shouting by exception. The Piccadilly shouters just shout.

 

[sportzbar]

I don't write the job description nor do I recruit and test for ability to manage platform customer train relationship.. but in answer to your question - if air crew has verbal abuse from a passenger, they should walk off the job? Does this also apply during an emergency landing? Of course not. You don't walk when you are needed most.

The concern of the staff was their own perceived safety from verbal abuse - not their risk of failing at their safety critical function. Crowd safety (crush, platform fall) are as important as being able to see if a passenger is stuck in a door.

As you saw, but did not quote, my point is that their actions endangered people and would have been better handled by appropriate trade union representation, and that if this is a persistent difficulty then the TOC/NR need to sort it out.

Actually knowing people in the airline business, if a passenger becomes abusive they may well find themselves landing at an out of the way airport being met by that particular countries security services and a bill from the airline for the cost of the diversion so in that respect your aregiment doesn't hold up. Also I repeat ( a question that you will not satisfactorily answer becaise i suspect that you do not work in the industry and therefore do not know the railway bylaws and rules that support the actikn taken by the satff), are the staff supposed to continue to receive verbal abuse whilst trying to perform a safety critical role? Would you expect to be able to carry out your job to the highest standards whilst being bombarded? And if you perceived your own personal safety was at risk, would you carry on any way?

The system is broken. We all know that. What we all know is that no one in any role, anywhere, in any industry should be put in a position where they feel their personal safety is compromised. That is what happened that night. The staff did as they were trained to do. The staff should not be blamed for following the set procedures which is what you appear to be doing.....

 

[muz379]

I would be happy were a reasonable trade union to organise a strike properly in response to incidents or a trend of incidents on the staff to ask for more security and support, but a walkout at times of need is reckless.

You seem to be continuing to do what others have done and are suggesting that the walkout was some kind of quasi industrial action . It was not , it was the staff following company instruction which is that if a situation becomes so unsafe you withdraw for your own safety until such safety can be guaranteed . This is fairly standard in any customer facing role on or off the railway . And I dont really care what you or anyone else thinks on an internet forum . If in my role someone is threatening me , I will not be hanging around to find out if they are serious about that threat . I have a family I want to go home to thank you very much , they wont take much solace from the fact that my union would now in your eyes be legitimised in organising a strike about my death .

It appears that at the time the only way that this safety could be guaranteed was for the BTP to be present at the station .Maybe just maybe if the role of dispatchers is so important to their operations northern should put more pressure on BTP for a constant presence at Victoria when they know that there will be disruption .

 

[45107]

Couldn’t there be dedicated platform staff dispatching and separate staff tasked with providing information? Especially at peak times?

And when the ‘dispatcher’ says “Sorry, it is not my job to give information”, what response do you predict from the potentially irate passenger who is asking about a delayed train ?

 

[Ferret]

That is not shouting as routine. It is shouting by exception. The Piccadilly shouters just shout.

You have just proved my point about your inexperience. Sadly, it is routine. Every single day. And in our overly litigious culture, staff fear that THEY will be the ones up before a judge and jury having to explain why they didn’t stop a serious accident from happening.

You have an overly romanticised ideal about what working with the public entails nowadays. Do a dispatcher’s job for a month and let me know how you get on without shouting. I’ll give you an hour, two at most.

 

[Mogster]

And when the ‘dispatcher’ says “Sorry, it is not my job to give information”, what response do you predict from the potentially irate passenger who is asking about a delayed train ?

If you are about to perform a safety critical function you politely but firmly direct them to the guy wearing the “information” tabard who’s stood a few yards away.

 

[Meerkat]

If you get abusive on a plane you end up on the floor in flexicuffs.
I bet the platform staff would love to have that option!

 

[sportzbar]

If you get abusive on a plane you end up on the floor in flexicuffs.
I bet the platform staff would love to have that option!

Oh if only we had this option.....

 

[Grumpy Git]

I've only used Victoria station once in the last 30 years, one Sunday a year ago.

There was severe disruption and the on platform, Northern staff were giving us no information. After doing the Hokey-Cokey over the footbridge twice with luggage I asked on of them how the hell I was supposed to know when I could get a train to the airport and he threw a complete wobbly. He should have been fired on the spot, he was a disgrace.

 

[tpjm]

Couldn’t there be dedicated platform staff dispatching and separate staff tasked with providing information? Especially at peak times?

There are. Doesn’t change that customers will ask all staff for advice and lets face it, if someone said, “I’m just a dispatcher” wouldn’t that enrage people more?

 

[Mathew S]

That is not shouting as routine. It is shouting by exception. The Piccadilly shouters just shout.

I don't know which staff you've come across or when you're travelling from those platforms, but as someone who travels home from Piccadilly in rush hour most weekdays I just want to state that what you've said is simply untrue. I can't remember the last time I heard one of the staff there shout. Politely, but firmly, ask a passenger to move when they're ignoring the announcements, yes, but I genuinely don't think I've heard shouting - from staff - on those platforms ever.

 

[Kimi]

If you get abusive on a plane you end up on the floor in flexicuffs.
I bet the platform staff would love to have that option!

They do have that option - it is called BTP. If the BTP should have attended but did not, they have to answer for it.
If the incident(s) was not serious enough for BTP, what should have been done instead?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As someone who has in the past worked public facing jobs, the lack of empathy shown by some here to the staff who were seemingly verbally threatened is quite honestly disheartening. I know first hand what it is like to be threatened with violence, and have the same person follow me, and if the staff did walk away from it they were perfectly right to do so. It is not acceptable in any circumstances to do this, no matter how stressful the circumstance. Just because you pay for a service does not mean you are "king" as previously suggested, I hate that kind of mantra because it breeds this kind of selfish behaviour.

These kinds of incidents can have long term, sometimes devastating effects on people. They can cause stress, trauma and sadly in my experience even worse. Staff in front line jobs face daily pressures, and when things go wrong as the did on this particular day trying to manage the situation adds to that pressure. So when someone oversteps the line and starts to abuse them this adds an unacceptable level of stress, and so they are well within their rights to walk away from it.

This is very true, but I do strongly take the view that it is Northern, not the passengers, who are to blame for this, because it is their incompetent planning (be it at the bid level or the ongoing planning level) that is the whole reason the service is unsatisfactory, which is the whole reason stressed passengers (you've got to think of them too) are getting angry.

If you run a good service, like for instance London Midland used to on the south WCML, the "ire" will be relatively few people - drunk idiots and that subgroup of commuters who would moan about finding a Metro News on their seat when they board. You can then come down on those people like a ton of bricks because they are being unreasonable.

As I mentioned, I'm inclined to say the Unions should be looking to arrange strike action.

 

[Kimi]

You seem to be continuing to do what others have done and are suggesting that the walkout was some kind of quasi industrial action . It was not , it was the staff following company instruction which is that if a situation becomes so unsafe you withdraw for your own safety until such safety can be guaranteed . This is fairly standard in any customer facing role on or off the railway . And I dont really care what you or anyone else thinks on an internet forum . If in my role someone is threatening me , I will not be hanging around to find out if they are serious about that threat . I have a family I want to go home to thank you very much , they wont take much solace from the fact that my union would now in your eyes be legitimised in organising a strike about my death .

It appears that at the time the only way that this safety could be guaranteed was for the BTP to be present at the station .Maybe just maybe if the role of dispatchers is so important to their operations northern should put more pressure on BTP for a constant presence at Victoria when they know that there will be disruption .

Or 3rd party security staff. I have seen TfW providing two security staff on Friday night trains to Pembroke Dock .. but NT/NR/Tpe provide nothing at Vic? Seriously, can that be the case???

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is not shouting as routine. It is shouting by exception. The Piccadilly shouters just shout.

TOCs and Network Rail should not contract security staff for anything other than security (i.e. protecting things where people should not be).

That would sort that one out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or 3rd party security staff. I have seen TfW providing two security staff on Friday night trains to Pembroke Dock .. but NT/NR/Tpe provide nothing at Vic? Seriously, can that be the case???

We really, really do not want that. They are never professional enough, they are mostly just hired thugs.

Properly trained Police Officers are needed, particularly given the complexity of the situation.

 

[Mogster]

There are. Doesn’t change that customers will ask all staff for advice and lets face it, if someone said, “I’m just a dispatcher” wouldn’t that enrage people more?

If there was someone visible already interacting with the public I’d say no. If there was no one else to ask then it’s a problem.

Having observed what goes on at Oxford Road of an evening I’d say there needs to be more interaction with the public. Too often there’s no one visible, or audible on the centre platforms as the trains arrive, sometimes with no announcement. Stressed passengers are turning to each other saying “where’s this going”. Just having someone shouting, Southport, Lime Street, Blackpool, Edinburgh etc as the services roll would be helpful, like the old days.

For a few days we had someone with a walkabout microphone on the platform, now that seems to have stopped. Too often platform staff seem to be hiding in the tea room rather than out interacting with the passengers, a service is despatched and the platform staff disappear until the next service is due.

 

[Kimi]

Actually knowing people in the airline business, if a passenger becomes abusive they may well find themselves landing at an out of the way airport being met by that particular countries security services and a bill from the airline for the cost of the diversion so in that respect your aregiment doesn't hold up. Also I repeat ( a question that you will not satisfactorily answer becaise i suspect that you do not work in the industry and therefore do not know the railway bylaws and rules that support the actikn taken by the satff), are the staff supposed to continue to receive verbal abuse whilst trying to perform a safety critical role? Would you expect to be able to carry out your job to the highest standards whilst being bombarded? And if you perceived your own personal safety was at risk, would you carry on any way?

The system is broken. We all know that. What we all know is that no one in any role, anywhere, in any industry should be put in a position where they feel their personal safety is compromised. That is what happened that night. The staff did as they were trained to do. The staff should not be blamed for following the set procedures which is what you appear to be doing.....

The analogy with airline works for me. There is no reason an individual cannot find himself liable for railway disruption costs - if disruption is proportionate to the action.

I just don't know how serious the incident was.. witness info seems limited. What we know is that it's a powderkeg after lots of prolonged operational failure.

I am just saying safety of others in the crowd, not just staff, matters.. the safety critical role is not limited to trains, the platform counts too and is part of the safety case (and of passenger injury and fatality statistics). More safety risk was created to more people by the walk out.

This is one safety critical case I would support the union on..

 

[Grumpy Git]

One thing that is patently obvious is that both Northern Rail and TPE are not up to running a railway.

 

[Kimi]

We really, really do not want that. They are never professional enough, they are mostly just hired thugs.

Properly trained Police Officers are needed, particularly given the complexity of the situation.

I would like that - just hard to expect it to happen..

 

[Mathew S]

Or 3rd party security staff. I have seen TfW providing two security staff on Friday night trains to Pembroke Dock .. but NT/NR/Tpe provide nothing at Vic? Seriously, can that be the case???

Northern & TPE (and TfGM) do provide security staff at Victoria and elsewhere on the network. Just like BTP, though, they can't be everywhere.

I feel the need to say again that we don't know why (or even if) BTP didn't respond as rapidly as possible when requested. There are a whole host of reasons why an immediate attendance may not have been possible (e.g. dealing with another, more serious incident).

 

[sportzbar]

The analogy with airline works for me. There is no reason an individual cannot find himself liable for railway disruption costs - if disruption is proportionate to the action.

I just don't know how serious the incident was.. witness info seems limited. What we know is that it's a powderkeg after lots of prolonged operational failure.

I am just saying safety of others in the crowd, not just staff, matters.. the safety critical role is not limited to trains, the platform counts too and is part of the safety case (and of passenger injury and fatality statistics). More safety risk was created to more people by the walk out.

This is one safety critical case I would support the union on..

Fantastic that you support the union but I would like to point out that because the dispatch staff had walked out then no trains could move thus actally making it safer for those on the platform. Again another argument of yours that doesn't stack up. Are you saying that the majority of people are sheep who need to be herded and that without staff around they will simply act like lemmings and throw themselves off the platforms? Without staff are grown adults (majority of passengers) not responsible for their own actions?

I an glad that you can see that the dispatch corridor is safety critical but once again you fail to answer the question. After a large amount of verbal abuse (and according to railway rules and regulations which you seem are happy to ignore to suit your own narrative), the staff are instructed to move to a place of safety, what are they suppossed to do? Ignore their training and instructions? Dispatch under duress thus possibly causing a serious injury/ death and find themselves in front of a judge?

I would love to see you doing a 12 hour shift on a busy platform anywhere and prove me wrong.....

 

[Bantamzen]

This is very true, but I do strongly take the view that it is Northern, not the passengers, who are to blame for this, because it is their incompetent planning (be it at the bid level or the ongoing planning level) that is the whole reason the service is unsatisfactory, which is the whole reason stressed passengers (you've got to think of them too) are getting angry.

If you run a good service, like for instance London Midland used to on the south WCML, the "ire" will be relatively few people - drunk idiots and that subgroup of commuters who would moan about finding a Metro News on their seat when they board. You can then come down on those people like a ton of bricks because they are being unreasonable.

As I mentioned, I'm inclined to say the Unions should be looking to arrange strike action.

Oh there are serious problems with the planning at Northern its true, but my point is very simple. I understand that punters will get fed up and angry, I've been there myself. But there is zero excuse for threatening a member of staff because of the failings of their managers. Zero excuse.

Like I said, I have been on the business end of some serious threats to my person for simply doing my job. And even as a thick skinned Northerner that can shake you to the core, especially when the individual follows you around. Some passenger threatening a member of staff with breaking their neck (as reported upthread) could easily frighten them enough into never stepping out of the house again, let alone turning into work. As a former union rep I've dealt with cases like this and they can have devastating effects on the abused. People have to remember that no matter how bad things get, they do not have the right to verbally abuse any member of staff. As others have said, when things go into meltdown the staff will be equally, if not more stressed. They don't deserve the way they are sometimes treated.

 

[Kimi]

Fantastic that you support the union but I would like to point out that because the dispatch staff had walked out then no trains could move thus actally making it safer for those on the platform. Again another argument of yours that doesn't stack up. Are you saying that the majority of people are sheep who need to be herded and that without staff around they will simply act like lemmings and throw themselves off the platforms? Without staff are grown adults (majority of passengers) not responsible for their own actions?

So, large crowds are responsible for their own safety? Bethnal Green, Hillsborough ring any bells?

Great for able bodied and tougher folks. Duty of care extends to more than staff.. I have been saying this consistently throughout.

Does stopping trains magically result in platforms emptying and crowds dispersing..

I an glad that you can see that the dispatch corridor is safety critical but once again you fail to answer the question. After a large amount of verbal abuse (and according to railway rules and regulations which you seem are happy to ignore to suit your own narrative), the staff are instructed to move to a place of safety, what are they suppossed to do? Ignore their training and instructions? Dispatch under duress thus possibly causing a serious injury/ death and find themselves in front of a judge?

Blimey.. you are arguing about things I have not argued for. To be clear, this incident has close to no facts getting reliable sources here.

I would love to see you doing a 12 hour shift on a busy platform anywhere and prove me wrong.....

Getting a bit personal now, so I will leave this thread - neither I nor anyone else should have to answer rhetorical questions, nor respond to exaggeration.

 

[sportzbar]

So, large crowds are responsible for their own safety? Bethnal Green, Hillsborough ring any bells?

Great for able bodied and tougher folks. Duty of care extends to more than staff.. I have been saying this consistently throughout.

Does stopping trains magically result in platforms emptying and crowds dispersing..



Blimey.. you are arguing about things I have not argued for. To be clear, this incident has close to no facts getting reliable sources here.



Getting a bit personal now, so I will leave this thread - neither I nor anyone else should have to answer rhetorical questions, nor respond to exaggeration.

Just to be clear I am still waiting for a reply to my question which you seem to keep ducking. This has nothing to do with Hillsborough etc (which incidentally had a large police presence). It's more to do with your attitude regarding safety critical staff remaining in position, trying to do their safety critical duties, in the face of something which should not be happening regardless of who is at fault. Again I ask you what should they do (bearing in mind that they are bound by rules and regulations I have already explained to you), beyond what they have already done?

As for being personal, I'm just pointing out that before criticising someone maybe try walking in their shoes......

 

[Bantamzen]

So, large crowds are responsible for their own safety? Bethnal Green, Hillsborough ring any bells?

I cannot believe you brought up Hillsborough, did you not follow how the events on that fateful day played out? I'm sorry to say it but that is a disgraceful comparison.

Also, I note with interest that you have not responded to me asking what you would do in similar circumstances. It is very easy to criticize those on front line jobs when you don't have to do them it seems.

 

[Meerkat]

We really, really do not want that. They are never professional enough, they are mostly just hired thugs.

Properly trained Police Officers are needed, particularly given the complexity of the situation.

I disagree. Why is a train different from a pub or a football match in terms of security staff?
You only get hired thugs if that’s what you specify and pay for.
Experience at football matches suggests that SIA stewards can be better than coppers - the stewards understand the mood of the punters better and are more pragmatic, whereas the coppers are trained to be physically assertive and some act like the badge gives them licence to do what they want.