Standing in First Class

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323Matt

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Hi,
Sorry if this has been covered but whilst travelling on a rather crowded FTPE service today (Class 185) I was standing in the small standard class section behind first and noticed people standing in the first class section.

This got me wondering as to whether or not passengers require a first class ticket to STAND in first class?

Personally I would imagine it's an area many people steer clear of to avoid the possibility of being removed or charged extra by the ticket inspector.

Thanks to anyone who can provide any information on this :)
 
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Michael.Y

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And to breathe the First Class air, look out the First Class Windows, hold on to the First Class poles and handles, feel the First Class carpet 'neath your feet etc...


Sorry :lol: As someone who is going on their first ever 1st Class journey tomorrow, I'm a wee bit excited.
 

SS4

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And to breathe the First Class air, look out the First Class Windows, hold on to the First Class poles and handles, feel the First Class carpet 'neath your feet etc...


Sorry :lol: As someone who is going on their first ever 1st Class journey tomorrow, I'm a wee bit excited.

It's more what you can't smell that makes first worthwhile ;)
 

Simon11

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Or hear?!!!!!!!

If a First Class Passenger did end up standing, I would assume that they would be refunded for the difference between 1st & STD
 

ainsworth74

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If a First Class Passenger did end up standing, I would assume that they would be refunded for the difference between 1st & STD

They might be as a goodwill gesture (or if there is something in a TOC passenger's charter) but they wouldn't be entitled to a refund of any sort by default.
 

4SRKT

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Is there anything a passenger or passengers' group could do about standard class passengers consistently standing in some sort of appalling train like a Pendolino or a 185, where the provision of standard class seats relative to the total length of the train is woefully inadequate? What would there be to stop a contemptuous TOC providing even fewer standard class seats and just cramming the plebs in like sardines even more, while hopefully getting a handful more proper first class punters?
 

323Matt

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Well, on that journey, a first class passenger did vacate his seat for an elderly passenger also in first class, would the passenger have any claim to a refund, I presume not as he stayed in first class, only standing up.
 

ainsworth74

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Well, on that journey, a first class passenger did vacate his seat for an elderly passenger also in first class, would the passenger have any claim to a refund, I presume not as he stayed in first class, only standing up.

Automatically no, he paid for a first class ticket and travelled in first class (tickets are authority to travel not a guarantee of a seat). That doesn't mean however a TOC wouldn't give compensation as a courtesy.
 

DaveNewcastle

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If a First Class Passenger did end up standing, I would assume that they would be refunded for the difference between 1st & STD
No. That is not my understanding.
A ticket does not guarantee a seat, only a Seat Reservation does that, and as the Seat Reservation carries no cost, then the failure to provide the seat is not a financial one and no compensation value can be attached (unless a TOC offered to do so voluntarily).
However, the requirement to travel in the designated Class is a responsibilty of both the passenger and the TOC, and either party could be in Breach if they defaulted.

Well, on that journey, a first class passenger did vacate his seat for an elderly passenger also in first class, would the passenger have any claim to a refund, I presume not as he stayed in first class, only standing up.
They would have no right to a refund, though they would merit some meaningful appreciation from the other parties. I'd expect any staff aware of that gesture to add their own appreciation (as it is a shortage of facilities to which their employing Company and its Government Department have contributed, but which I'm sure they regret as much as any passenger or poster on here). Perhaps the elderly passenger would be able to express their appreciation too.

Similar questions will arise in the case of injured or less able passengers, of any age, and in any class of accomodation. These are ultimately bound to remain ethical questions and I for one am pleased that many of the most personal ethical questions in our society are not pre-determined by Regulation and Law, but are matters where we, as individuals chose to position ourselves in respect of others through will and free choice.
 
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dk1

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Trouble nowadays is many operators offer free wifi in 1st & some punters try it on just to tap into this. On MKIII stock you also dont pay good money for some free loading numpty to keep standing on the damn internal auto-door mat <D<D<D
 

gnolife

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No. That is not my understanding.
A ticket does not guarantee a seat, only a Seat Reservation does that, and as the Seat Reservation carries no cost, then the failure to provide the seat is not a financial one and no compensation value can be attached (unless a TOC offered to do so voluntarily).
However, the requirement to travel in the designated Class is a responsibilty of both the passenger and the TOC, and either party could be in Breach if they defaulted.

They would have no reight to a refund, though they would merit some meaningful appreciation from the other parties. I'd expect any staff aware of that gesture to add their own appreciation (as it is a shortage of facilities to which their employing Company and its Government Department have contributed, but which I'm sure they regret as much as any passenger or poster on here).

So looking at the flip-side, Lets say that first class is rammed, but there's space in standard, would a person on a first class ticket get penalised for travelling in standard?
 

All Line Rover

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Although it is worth remembering that, if a customer did complain, most TOC's would likely refund the difference. If they didn't, InterCity TOC's would loose some of their most valued passengers (those who buy FOR's!) and regional TOC's would have their First Class season ticket holders transfer to Standard Class upon renewal.

It's not often that First Class is full, so I assume that this kind of "goodwill gesture" is issued very rarely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So looking at the flip-side, Lets say that first class is rammed, but there's space in standard, would a person on a first class ticket get penalised for travelling in standard?

No, of course not, as even though it is not explicitly stated, the logic implied in Section G of the NRCoC makes it obvious that First Class ticket holders can travel in Standard Class accommodation whenever they like.
 

exile

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So looking at the flip-side, Lets say that first class is rammed, but there's space in standard, would a person on a first class ticket get penalised for travelling in standard?

Good point. A first class ticket is surely only valid in First Class unless there is no First Class on the train?
 

All Line Rover

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Trouble nowadays is many operators offer free wifi in 1st & some punters try it on just to tap into this. On MKIII stock you also dont pay good money for some free loading numpty to keep standing on the damn internal auto-door mat <D<D<D

Public Wi-Fi is extremely insecure. Whilst there is great benefit to a TOC of offering enhanced mobile coverage, offering free Wi-Fi is pointless, and those who use it are just asking for their laptops to be hacked into, and their personal files and details stolen.

Considering that the majority of people now have smartphones, it is much safer and secure to use mobile tethering instead of public Wi-Fi. It's also costs nothing, no matter where you are!
 

DaveNewcastle

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So looking at the flip-side, Lets say that first class is rammed, but there's space in standard, would a person on a first class ticket get penalised for travelling in standard?
You might like to read some of the previous debates on this matter.
Here : First Class Ticket Holders Occupying Standard Seats
Here : NXEA Finally respond regarding charging for 1st class when not advertised
and others.

There might even be help to be found here : Prosectution - sitting in first class with a standard ticket
 

All Line Rover

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Good point. A first class ticket is surely only valid in First Class unless there is no First Class on the train?

NRCoC:

If First Class accommodation is supposed to be available and is not available, you may claim a refund for the difference between your First Class ticket and the appropriate Standard Class ticket.

Logical conclusion:

If First Class accomodation is supposed to be available, is available, and you choose not to use it (once you have boarded the train, of course ;)), you may not claim a refund for the different between your First Class ticket and the appropriate Standard Class ticket.

Simple.
 

4SRKT

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Good point. A first class ticket is surely only valid in First Class unless there is no First Class on the train?

I don't think so. You can trade down but not up. For years I had first class privs and could sit in second class if I wanted (and often did if I was travelling with non-first class priv holders). The only situation where this wasn't allowed was if second class was rammed, and then I would have to move to first.

I suspect the only time a first class ticket holder cannot sit in second class if he chooses if if he is on a first class advance.
 

Ascot

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It's happened to me a few times before, once where standard was fairly quiet so I placed myself there. I've never tried to get compensation for it though but would love to hear stories of it.


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John @ home

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If a First Class Passenger did end up standing, I would assume that they would be refunded for the difference between 1st & STD

They might be as a goodwill gesture (or if there is something in a TOC passenger's charter) but they wouldn't be entitled to a refund of any sort by default.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage provide for "a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey" if "you have a first class ticket ... and the first class accommodation ... shown in the National Rail timetable is not available on any train you travel in". I am not aware of any rules requiring compensation if all first class seats are occupied but first class standing accommodation is available, but this does seem to be common practice.

Passenger Charters set out the levels of compensation payable if a reserved seat is not available. For example, East Coast's Passenger Charter says "If the seat you have reserved is not available, our staff will do all they can to find you an alternative seat. If we cannot find you an alternative seat we will give you compensation on the following basis:
• If your ticket is single, we will give compensation of 100% of the value; and
• If your ticket is a return, we will give compensation of 50% of the value.
"

Advance ticket terms and conditions require holders of Advance tickets to "travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s) ... where applicable".
 

tony_mac

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• If your ticket is single, we will give compensation of 100% of the value; and
• If your ticket is a return, we will give compensation of 50% of the value.[/I]"
FGW seem to give the same compensation, TPE is half that, but Virgin's offer is 5% of the ticket price.
 

andydcm

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FGW have signs saying that you cannot stand in a 1st class vestibule; must admit I would find this a bit if I was still a guard but some TMs enforce rigorously.

If used properly Wifi is fine, seems an obvious development for me and don't know why so many TOCs have lagged behind - should be free in 1st and charged / addition to season ticket in STD, if it's reliable people will pay. Certain routed, like the South West main line, have woeful 3G and this would be a real money spinner for SWT, for example.
 

4SRKT

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EMT seem to enforce this as well. I was on a late running train to St Pancras and was in danger of missing my FCC onward to Three Bridges. I know they run every 15 minutes, but I had a meeting to attend and thought I'd give it a shot anyway. I walked down to the front of the train to the first coach (1st class) to bail there. En route I passed a member of EMT staff talking to a few other passengers. A couple of minutes later she approached me right at the front and said "now I've just asked you nicely not to stand in the first class vestibule, but you've done it anyway". This really got my goat, both because it's utterly ludicrous not to allow people to disembark from a first class vestibule, and because she hadn't spoken to me at all, presumably assuming I was part of the small group she'd just addressed.

I proceeded to tear into her about how she hadn't spoken to me at all, and how I had a tight connection to make, and how I wouldn't normally be polluting the first class atmosphere of the vestibule with my inferior and scummy presence, except that I was in a hurry. "Everybody's in the same position she answered". "No they're not, because they aren't all going for the 10:24 FCC to Brighton, and it's EMT's fault anyway that we're running late, so to cause the situation and then attempt to prevent someone catching it up is a disgrace". She sloped off and left me alone.
 

All Line Rover

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EMT seem to enforce this as well. I was on a late running train to St Pancras and was in danger of missing my FCC onward to Three Bridges. I know they run every 15 minutes, but I had a meeting to attend and thought I'd give it a shot anyway. I walked down to the front of the train to the first coach (1st class) to bail there. En route I passed a member of EMT staff talking to a few other passengers. A couple of minutes later she approached me right at the front and said "now I've just asked you nicely not to stand in the first class vestibule, but you've done it anyway". This really got my goat, both because it's utterly ludicrous not to allow people to disembark from a first class vestibule, and because she hadn't spoken to me at all, presumably assuming I was part of the small group she'd just addressed.

I proceeded to tear into her about how she hadn't spoken to me at all, and how I had a tight connection to make, and how I wouldn't normally be polluting the first class atmosphere of the vestibule with my inferior and scummy presence, except that I was in a hurry. "Everybody's in the same position she answered". "No they're not, because they aren't all going for the 10:24 FCC to Brighton, and it's EMT's fault anyway that we're running late, so to cause the situation and then attempt to prevent someone catching it up is a disgrace". She sloped off and left me alone.

I have occasionally (very occasionally) heard requests on Virgin, and East Coast, that passengers with Standard Class tickets should not walk through First Class to disembark (or embark) the train. So other TOC's enforce this as well - at least at times.

I think it's fair enough, as you have no right to be in First Class is you have a Standard Class ticket. I don't dispute that discretion should be applied in certain instances, such as when the train is just about to depart (and you'd delay the train by walking all the way to Standard Class), or when you are on Virgin and have a very tight connection (and would otherwise have to walk past 4 First Class carriages), or if you need to speak to the guard/TM who happens to be in First Class. However with regard to the second point, most TOC's point out that one of the benefits of travelling First Class is having the carriage/s at the London-end of the platform. I think most First Class customers would be rather annoyed if all of the Standard Class customers barged through trying to alight the train, and when I'm travelling Standard Class, I always alight from a Standard Class carriage.
 

tsr

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I have occasionally (very occasionally) heard requests on Virgin, and East Coast, that passengers with Standard Class tickets should not walk through First Class to disembark (or embark) the train. So other TOC's enforce this as well - at least at times.

I think it's fair enough, as you have no right to be in First Class is you have a Standard Class ticket. I don't dispute that discretion should be applied in certain instances, such as when the train is just about to depart (and you'd delay the train by walking all the way to Standard Class), or when you are on Virgin and have a very tight connection (and would otherwise have to walk past 4 First Class carriages), or if you need to speak to the guard/TM who happens to be in First Class. However with regard to the second point, most TOC's point out that one of the benefits of travelling First Class is having the carriage/s at the London-end of the platform. I think most First Class customers would be rather annoyed if all of the Standard Class customers barged through trying to alight the train, and when I'm travelling Standard Class, I always alight from a Standard Class carriage.

On some trains, enforcing a "No walking through First Class by Standard Class ticket-holders" rule would be somewhat problematic, given that the First Class section may be in the middle of the train, and thus perhaps form the only link between dividing portions for those who have boarded the wrong half of the train.
 
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Tringonometry

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On some trains, enforcing a "No walking through First Class by Standard Class ticket-holders) would be somewhat problematic, given that the First Class section may be in the middle of the train, and thus perhaps form the only link between dividing portions for those who have boarded the wrong half of the train.


<marie_antoinette>

Let them go to New Street.

</marie_antoinette>

Or get off the train and walk up the platform at Northampton. :idea:
 

All Line Rover

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On some trains, enforcing a "No walking through First Class by Standard Class ticket-holders) would be somewhat problematic, given that the First Class section may be in the middle of the train, and thus perhaps form the only link between dividing portions for those who have boarded the wrong half of the train.

Yes, such as London Midland or TPE, where it would be impossible to enforce such a rule (although on TPE the constant walking through First Class is only due to the bad design of the train).
 

4SRKT

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and when I'm travelling Standard Class, I always alight from a Standard Class carriage.

So do I, but not if I'm going to miss a tight connection. And I'm not having some scouser who's a member of an EMT buffet crew sounding off at me about it.
 

SS4

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Public Wi-Fi is extremely insecure. Whilst there is great benefit to a TOC of offering enhanced mobile coverage, offering free Wi-Fi is pointless, and those who use it are just asking for their laptops to be hacked into, and their personal files and details stolen.

Considering that the majority of people now have smartphones, it is much safer and secure to use mobile tethering instead of public Wi-Fi. It's also costs nothing, no matter where you are!

Indeed it is. Better yet use a VPN to access the WiFi or I can't see why secure connections would be affected though unless someone got hold of the encryption key (unlikely). It goes without saying I'd never log in en clair if at all on public wifi.
Smartphones (and by extension tethering) is a decent idea although recall that desktop sites use more data than mobile sites and apps, not well configured, can access far more than they need to perform their primary function.

It's moot of course since public WiFi is too slow to do much anyway and audio streaming is not allowed albeit for perfectly sensible reasons.
Would it be easier and quicker to put the WiFi password on the scrolling screen in the appropriate carriages. Asking for the password on demand would work although it may not prove very popular. Both these methods would rely on a frequently updated key although it wouldn't be hard with a random generator.

Back on topic: When does walking through first class become standing in first class? Mainly for the times when First is in the middle of carriage (by extension who controls the door? If I were in first I'd be very annoyed if someone kept opening the door or kept walking through back and forth) but also what about facilities? Would a toilet wholly in First be a de facto first class toilet?
 

All Line Rover

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Indeed it is. Better yet use a VPN to access the WiFi or I can't see why secure connections would be affected though unless someone got hold of the encryption key (unlikely). It goes without saying I'd never log in en clair if at all on public wifi.
Smartphones (and by extension tethering) is a decent idea although recall that desktop sites use more data than mobile sites and apps, not well configured, can access far more than they need to perform their primary function.

It's moot of course since public WiFi is too slow to do much anyway and audio streaming is not allowed albeit for perfectly sensible reasons.
Would it be easier and quicker to put the WiFi password on the scrolling screen in the appropriate carriages. Asking for the password on demand would work although it may not prove very popular. Both these methods would rely on a frequently updated key although it wouldn't be hard with a random generator.

That is very true, although setting up a VPN is much more complicated than setting up mobile tethering, which is why most people don't do it. All I'm saying is that because the vast majority of laptop owners also own a smartphone, offering Wi-Fi (free or not) is a pointless gimmick. And that includes on a train, although I don't know how much extra it cost Virgin to offer the Wi-Fi on top of the enhanced mobile coverage.

Back on topic: When does walking through first class become standing in first class? Mainly for the times when First is in the middle of carriage (by extension who controls the door? If I were in first I'd be very annoyed if someone kept opening the door or kept walking through back and forth) but also what about facilities? Would a toilet wholly in First be a de facto first class toilet?

Well I suppose I'm a bit naughty, as I consider the toilet in Coach G on a Pendolino to be a "multi-class" loo. ;) I justify that by saying that I haven't yet passed through the "welcome to First Class" door. Coach E on a Super Voyager is definitely a "multi-class" loo, which does slightly annoy me when travelling First Class because if that toilet is dirty there is no other one to use!

I reckon that the toilets in Coaches H & J are definitely "First Class only" though, unless all of the other toilets are out of order, which I can't imagine happening.
 
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