Stock they should have built more of

[317666]

Seriously though, I'd go for the Turbostar family. Very comfortable and spacious, with only minimum rattle..if only some eccentric gazillionaire had bought enough to replace all the Pacers.

Sorry but I think you need to try using the XC and GA examples regularly!

Agreed that more 175s should have been built, and 333s too. Both very good units for what they do, just the former should be a few coaches longer as others have said.

 

[Manchester77]

In the 1990s, InterCity were planning to upgrade the West Coast Main Line using 225s: I was referring to the fact that had this happened, we wouldn't have had to endure Pendolinos on that route!

I thought that it was intercity 250 and a full line upgrade, then when the treasury didn't have the money intercity wanted 10 extra 225 sets for west coast which again was blocked because there wasn't enough money and privatisation.

 

[al.currie93]

Definitely more 91s and Mk 4s, enough to completely cover express services on the ECML, WCML and the GEML (the three electrified long distance express lines)

More 442s to cover all express services with shorter average time between stops, such as the Brighton fasts, Portsmouth fasts, etc (possibly also an ac equivalent and with new traction equipment to stop them spontaneously combusting)

More 455s to cover all third rail electrified suburban services, more 317s to cover all OHL electrified suburban services, more 150s to cover all diesel suburban services and rural services

More 158s to cover all diesel regional services, I can't think of any electrified regional services but correct me if I'm wrong!

More 465/365s for all electrified regional expresses and more 165s for the deisels

HSTs would then be able to cover all diesel express services (currently possibly pending replacemnt depending on what peoples opinions of that are which I won't go into) and we'd have a pretty standard fleet that was generally still in date

 

[klewer]

I still think that having more 376's could have made them a cracking replacement for a lot of London-area suburban stock - even more so if a pantograph was added for 25kv working.

 

[Genocide]

They should have built more 442's.

I could probably look this up, but was the number of 442's built directly proportionate to the number of recycled REP traction motors available?

When I was a more active follower of railways than I am now they always seemed a useful bit of kit; they'd have been useful in load 10 formation with only one buffet (as per BIGs and CIGs).

 

[59CosG95]

More 323s-without a shadow of a doubt. Also more 159s, more 376s, more Networkers, more Adelantes, and, most importantly of all, more 444s or an AC equivalent (I think 344 is still available). They'd be much better TPE units that the 350s. 385 should be used for an eAdelante if Alstom ever build one. 334s should be more common, particularly in the North and the South, getting rid of those flaky 315s.

 

[30907]

I could probably look this up, but was the number of 442's built directly proportionate to the number of recycled REP traction motors available?.

Pretty much - 15 REPs to 24x5WES. And REP traction motors were themselves non-standard (400hp against 250hp).

So al.currie93's suggestion of new equipment would have been the only way forward.

 

[BurtonM]

In my perfect world, Northern's stock would be solely 156/158, with 323s for electric services, and TPE would have a lot of three car 175s instead of 185s (which I despise). 170s are fine, and I'd also welcome more of them.

 

[Manchester77]

But northern operate services which need the 1/3 and 2/3 door layout otherwise the dwell times would be too high

 

[fowler9]

But northern operate services which need the 1/3 and 2/3 door layout otherwise the dwell times would be too high

You know Dwell Time seems to be the new trendy catch phrase. The train from West Allerton to Lime Street hasn't been scheduled to be slower for about 50 years.

 

[ainsworth74]

You know Dwell Time seems to be the new trendy catch phrase. The train from West Allerton to Lime Street hasn't been scheduled to be slower for about 50 years.

And of course we've got more people travelling than fifty years ago so imagine how slow it would be if we didn't try and keep dwell times down

 

[Manchester77]

You know Dwell Time seems to be the new trendy catch phrase. The train from West Allerton to Lime Street hasn't been scheduled to be slower for about 50 years.

But in the peaks at busy stations in urban places having end doors isn't ideal since it doesn't spread the load of passengers on the platform they congregate around fewer smaller areas. Boarding is further slowed since the doors are narrower.

 

[fowler9]

But in the peaks at busy stations in urban places having end doors isn't ideal since it doesn't spread the load of passengers on the platform they congregate around fewer smaller areas. Boarding is further slowed since the doors are narrower.

And yet despite all these fantastic improvements in knowledge and engineering trains from West Allerton are less frequent and take longer than they did over 20 years ago. And there still isn't a clockface timetable.

 

[CockneySparrow]

156's for me, useful little things.

The GA ones dont half rattle along

Remember getting on one at Cambridge on a Sunday evening, they coupled two together to make a four car set

Got to Ely really quick, well seems like it did

It was when the Ely to Ipswich line was closed one Sunday they were running a 156 between Peterborough and Ely, when service finished working it left the 156 in Ely so they coupled the following service from Norwich to it at Ely ran it to Cambridge and to Norwich as a four car set

 

[colchesterken]

306 and 309. thats just my era showing.. the good old days..

 

[fowler9]

306 and 309. thats just my era showing.. the good old days..

More class 37's, 50's and 56's for me. And a few more 304's and 87's for electric stock. Ha ha.

 

[sprinterguy]

While it is true that Class 180s are not cleared to use Birmingham New Street due to not being cleared through Proof House Tunnel, they could be cleared as ATW use 175s on several services from Shrewsbury to Birmingham International, 175s having the same body profile as 180s.

When did the 180s' clearance lapse? They have operated through the Proof House tunnels - When a few of them were stored at Oxley.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

159. As they are essensially a 158 with more capacity. could be useful on the Liverpool-Nottingham runs. And they are generally nice regional express units. Although a 100mph version could have been useful..

There's 3 car 158s as well. Of course, the (original) 159s were originally just higher powered 3 car 158s.

 

[Beveridges]

They should have built more 156's and that way, less 150's and Pacers would have needed to have been built! Or better still none at all.

90mph is usually not needed on Pacer routes so 156's were needed rather than 158's.

 

[306024]

306 and 309. thats just my era showing.. the good old days..

Indeed, no further discussion required

But to contradict myself, quite like the LM 172s and 350s, so wouldn't mind seeing more of those replace 14xs and 317s if someone had a big cheque book.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

309's were prototypes for the ECML electrification of the 1960's ! Fine units in their heyday - and not bad when refurbed , though the original Griddle car service must have been good for a steak sandwich after a day's work.

The class 120 Swindon DMU's were excellent units.

Closer to today - I do admire the Desiro units....

 

[themiller]

They should have carried on with the Pacer family, possibly going for a bogied version for longer distance routes!

Oh hang on a minute, they did!

Perhaps an articulated pacer with 3 bogies would have been more popular and a much better ride than the current version. A sort of tram train I suppose!

 

[Helvellyn]

Class 442
I believe that there were options to build an extra four units to supplememt the original 24; they would have used the electrical equipment from the Class 431 units (reformed 432/438 units) kept on by NSE due to growth. I have been told that if th fleet had grown to 28 units, that would ahve been sufficient to allow SWT to operate 2tph Waterloo-Weymouth - one of the reasons the 442s were handed back in 2007 was that there weren't enough to do this (leasing costs was another factor).

a.c. version of Class 442
16 5-car units for NSE out of Liverpool Street would have been a great replacement for the Class 309 fleet for services to Clacton-on-Sea/Walton-on-the-Naze. Not sure if there was a suitable a.c. traction motor available with sufficient power for a 5-car 100 mph unit, or if any a.c. version might have ended up with three motor bogies?

I always thought that a 5-car a.c. version of the 442 would have also been ideal for InterCity to replace loco-hauled services on the WCML that avoided Euston: Birmingham - Manchester; Birmingham - Glasgow; Manchester - Glasgow. The fact that the 442 was built allowing it to be hauled and heated by diesel locos would have been a boon for those WCML XC services that were Class 86 hauled Scotland-Preston, then Class 47 hauled Preston-Manchester.

Class 323
Regional Railways wanted their own spec EMU, and the Class 323 was it. Shame an order for WYPTE services never materialised (20 units could have operated the Aire Valley services, plus replaced the 321/9s on Leeds-Doncaster).

Class 365
Nice units, but were really a stop-gap order when NSE and IC were pitched against each other (IC lost out on 10 Class 91+Mk 4 sets ofr WCML services). Would have been so much better if the Class 471 unit had gone into production - that would have been the BR equivalent of the Electrostar.

Class 185
The original order size was cut back, and the proposal to make a number (should have been all) 4-car never got off the ground. Personally, also a shame they have no end corridor connections.

Class 175
As someone else has already said, shame the whole fleet wasn't built as three-car units. Shame Alstom also never picked up more orders - ScotRail and SWT could have been good given they both went for Junipers, but it never happened.

Class 170
Not necessarily more units, but more centre cars. Midland Mainline only strengthened 10 of their 17 2-car units; if they'd done all 17 CrossCountry would have been in a better position.

Class 220/221
Again, not necessarily more units, but should have been built as 5-car and 6-car units.

Class 222
As much as I love a HST, Midland Mainline should have been able to order a fleet to replace everything with Meridians.

 

[455driver]

I'm sorry but I'm not really sure that you know what you're talking about. Pacers don't have bogies.

I'm sorry but I do know what I am talking about, although Pacers dont have bogies, their cousins, the 153/155 units do

Have a look at what was used in their construction, how they were constructed and where they were built!

 

[samuelmorris]

357s - or something that works in multiple with them.

Not necessarily for anything particularly good about the stock, but simply due to the considerable increase in usage on that line since the improvements a decade and a bit ago. When polled about increasing train length nowadays c2c say 'we are not allowed to order new rolling stock this close to the end of the franchise'. If that's true, they should perhaps have considered it a little earlier. I don't think for a minute that crowding is as bad on this route as several others, but there are still a fair few trains in the peak rush hour that are loaded to the brim, and I wonder whether those few services of 8-car length would be able to run as 12-cars in a cost-effective manner.

While I'm in pie-in-the-sky thinking mode, perhaps the order of 379s should have been larger to allow a further few 317s to be cascaded to the GEML, for the same reasons as above. There seems to be a far greater proportion of 12-car sets at peak time on the GEML though, so perhaps after the 321s came across from Silverlink they had enough. I would have said the order of 360s should have been larger, but it's easy to forget how long ago they were ordered. Back then perhaps it wasn't necessary.

 

[Bevan Price]

I would have preferred Class 151 (3 or 4 car versions) to have been the main design for suburban & short distance inter-urban services -- a much better passenger environment than 150s or 142s.
156s and 158s basically OK, but most of them should have been 3 or 4 cars rather than inadequate 2 car formations.

In some ways, Class 323 came too late, as there were already lots of fairly young 313 to 321 units available. However, for later electrifications, they could have become a standard design built instead of 332, 333 and 365 classes, reducing the number of different classes.

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

1. continued the APT program. Only traveled on it once, Preston to London...arrived 40 mins early!

2. Center cars for 156s and more for 158s

3. More 220s and 221s and extend the existing ones

4. Why stop at 35 11 coach Pendos? extend the whole lot! cheaper as a single build than another add on in a few years, surely?

5. More 175s, 376s, 444s, 180s,

And the main one for me.....

12 car 340s!

 

[Manchester77]

I would have preferred Class 151 (3 or 4 car versions) to have been the main design for suburban & short distance inter-urban services -- a much better passenger environment than 150s or 142s.

Off topic but do you know where I can find any images of the interior of the 151s can't find any on google?

 

[Bevan Price]

Off topic but do you know where I can find any images of the interior of the 151s can't find any on google?

Cannot find any interior photos, and it is a long time since my only trip in a 151 (Derby to Wirksworth & return, BR special trip). From memory, they were a bit like an elongated 142, with 3+2 bus type seating, but a vastly better quality of ride.

This site has a lot of information about Class 151

http://www.traintesting.com/Class151.htm

(The link to interior photos leads to a "dead" website.)

 

[jopsuk]

There's definitely some interesting "what if x program had been completed?"- APT is certainly one. "What if" they'd gone into full service on the WCML and ECML?

Then there's "What if" NSE had gone full steam with the Networkers- would they potentially have displaced the PEP and Mark 3 EMUs to Regional Railways and Scotrail?

 

[Manchester77]

Cannot find any interior photos, and it is a long time since my only trip in a 151 (Derby to Wirksworth & return, BR special trip). From memory, they were a bit like an elongated 142, with 3+2 bus type seating, but a vastly better quality of ride.
This site has a lot of information about Class 151
http://www.traintesting.com/Class151.htm
(The link to interior photos leads to a "dead" website.)

Thank you

Then there's "What if" NSE had gone full steam with the Networkers- would they potentially have displaced the PEP and Mark 3 EMUs to Regional Railways and Scotrail?

I'd imagine that the mark 3 EMUs would have stayed since they were pretty new when the networkers were entering services. I always thought that networkers would operate south of the Thames and on LTS.