Stopping at boundary station with a season ticket and a West Yorkshire MetroCard

[43094]

My friend has an annual Zones 1 - 5 Bus and Train West Yorkshire Metrocard. He also has an annual Steeton and Silsden to Skipton season ticket.

Does anyone know if the services he travels on are required to call at Steeton and Silsden (which is the boundary station of the West Yorkshire Metrocard)?

On previous occasions, on enquiring (at Leeds) before boarding a train that doesn't stop at Steeton, he has been told by one guard that it's fine (and allowed to travel, without being made to purchase an additional ticket), and been told by another guard that it wasn't allowed (and prevented from travelling with the ticket combination above)

Enquiries at a travel centre revealed that the staff there were unsure also.

Is anyone able to shed any light on this?

 

[142094]

Perfectly fine - I used to commute from York to Leeds using a York - Mickefield Season and a WY Metro Pass, using TPE services which do not stop at Micklefield.

It is covered under Condition 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage section (c):

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);

(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

EDIT:

However, it does depend on where he is travelling from. For example he would NOT be able to use the above combination of tickets when travelling from Wakefield Westgate, Leeds or Shipley on an East Coast service to Skipton.

 

[43094]

Cheers for that.

Is there anything written down that my friend could print and show if challenged again?

 

[142094]

NRCoC is online - probably best to take a printout.

Note, I edited my first post but didn't see your reply. Your friend wouldn't be able to use this on an East Coast service, but would be able to use it on the Northern services between Carlisle and Leeds which don't stop at Steeton and Silsden.

 

[IanD]

Your friend wouldn't be able to use this on an East Coast service, but would be able to use it on the Northern services between Carlisle and Leeds which don't stop at Steeton and Silsden.

That's interesting - what is the logic behind that?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Where a passenger holds two or more zonal
tickets in combination or one is a rail season
ticket and one is not, then the train does not
need to call at the station where they change
from one ticket to the other. Please note that
these combinations of tickets do not apply to
services operated by CrossCountry, East
Midlands Trains or East Coast.

http://www.wymetro.com/NR/rdonlyres...7-9864DAB24758/0/CrossBoundaryinfoleaflet.pdf

 

[KingBBoogaloo]

Cant you get a Metro Card that covers Skipton these days?

 

[43094]

Thanks for the replies. Will direct him to the links above.

Cheers!

 

[dvboy]

It only covers buses....crazy I know

Only covers rail actually so your friend wouldn't be able to use the bus services in West Yorkshire.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Only covers rail actually so your friend wouldn't be able to use the bus services in West Yorkshire.

That's correct. MetroCards for Rail Zones 6 and 7 are rail only products that allow travel from Skipton or Harrogate into West Yorkshire, then unlimited train travel throughout West Yorkshire.

 

[dvboy]

That's correct. MetroCards for Rail Zones 6 and 7 are rail only products that allow travel from Skipton or Harrogate into West Yorkshire, then unlimited train travel throughout West Yorkshire.

A bit annoying if you need the train from zone 7 and buses within zones 1-5, as suggested the OP's friend does.

In the West Midlands you can buy an nTrain out-of-county add-on to an nNetwork (bus, train and tram) ticket.

 

[34D]

However, it does depend on where he is travelling from. For example he would NOT be able to use the above combination of tickets when travelling from Wakefield Westgate, Leeds or Shipley on an East Coast service to Skipton.

I note the link to the WYPTE site, however I fail to understand how clause 19c isn't satisfied (for a journey from Wakefield to Skipton on the through train): one ticket is a season skipton-steeton and the other is a pte ticket (which for the purposes of 19c has the same status as a steeton-wakefield anytime day return.

I take it we are agreed that the metrocard is valid from wakefield to keighley? Or did this change previously?

I don't understand (and I am uncomfortable with) the idea that a paragraph that isn't even in the NRCOC can restrict a passengers rights.

 

[dvboy]

I note the link to the WYPTE site, however I fail to understand how clause 19c isn't satisfied (for a journey from Wakefield to Skipton on the through train): one ticket is a season skipton-steeton and the other is a pte ticket (which for the purposes of 19c has the same status as a steeton-wakefield anytime day return.

I take it we are agreed that the metrocard is valid from wakefield to keighley? Or did this change previously?

I don't understand (and I am uncomfortable with) the idea that a paragraph that isn't even in the NRCOC can restrict a passengers rights.

I think the words

(unless special conditions prohibit their use);

might cover that.

 

[island]

I think the words

might cover that.

No, because they're suffixed to condition 19 (a) and we are seeking to rely on 19 (c).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Condition 1?

 

[dvboy]

No, because they're suffixed to condition 19 (a) and we are seeking to rely on 19 (c).

my mistake, apologies

but C applies to the season ticket, not the Metrocard.

 

[John @ home]

my mistake, apologies

but C applies to the season ticket, not the Metrocard.

No, Condition 19(c) applies to them both:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies: ...

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass,
The annual Steeton and Silsden to Skipton season ticket meets this part of the test.

and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
The annual Zones 1 - 5 Bus and Train West Yorkshire Metrocard meets this part because it is "issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive" and therefore is not a "Season Ticket (for this purpose)".

 

[185]

Season Ticket & Metrocard - ok.
Metrocard & ordinary single/return - train must call.

Bet that one's changed since guards school.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Season Ticket & Metrocard - ok.
Metrocard & ordinary single/return - train must call.

Bet that one's changed since guards school.

Entirely correct.

I cannot see any problem using the combination on the East Coast service, nor similar combinations on XC services to South Yorkshire etc. They comply with NRCoC, and that is it.

WYPTE does have a habit of putting some odd comments in their publicity. Their latest leaflet regarding discounts for Senior / Disabled bus pass holders states that you are limited to how many times you can change trains to reach your destination and there is a time limit on how long you can take to complete your single journey. (I can't find the latest leaflet online yet so can't copy the exact text).

 

[142094]

I cannot see any problem using the combination on the East Coast service, nor similar combinations on XC services to South Yorkshire etc. They comply with NRCoC, and that is it.

EC and XC conductors will not accept it for cross-boundary travel - Metro get several complaints about this but it has been like this for years and hasn't changed.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

In my dealings with Metro regarding rail ticketing involving their own tickets they ALWAYS refer me to NRES (calling them 'the train company') and refuse to take responsibility.

 

[142094]

In my dealings with Metro regarding rail ticketing involving their own tickets they ALWAYS refer me to NRES (calling them 'the train company') and refuse to take responsibility.

Depends who you're talking to - if it is the helpline then they'll probably not have a great amount of knowledge on ticketing, seeing as most enquiries are for train and bus times.

If you can get hold of someone on the Rail Delivery Team at Wellington House, they will know straight away.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

EC and XC conductors will not accept it for cross-boundary travel - Metro get several complaints about this but it has been like this for years and hasn't changed.

Well they should accept them - they comply with NRCoC - and as far as I can see, there is no authority for them to waive the conditions.

 

[142094]

Well they should accept them - they comply with NRCoC - and as far as I can see, there is no authority for them to waive the conditions.

They'll bring up the conditions of the MetroCard. How often it is rigourously enforced is anyone's guess.

 

[34D]

I haven't looked, but are the zone 6 or zone 7 metrocards given as valid on ECT?

 

[brompton rail]

WY Metro tickets have never been able to be used with tickets from the boundary station to outside WY. This applies to single, return, day rovers or Metro cards. They state - only valid to last stop in WY. That is why they say not valid on EC, XC, MML beyond last STOP in WY.

Otherwise combining a WY Metro Card and. SY Travel Master would be acceptable on those TOCs services, and it ain't!

Similarly SY Concessionary Passes are only valid from SY to WY destinations (& only to the trains destination - Leeds or Huddersfield) by using Northern. SY contribute to Northern's funding.

 

[142094]

WY Metro tickets have never been able to be used with tickets from the boundary station to outside WY. This applies to single, return, day rovers or Metro cards. They state - only valid to last stop in WY. That is why they say not valid on EC, XC, MML beyond last STOP in WY.

You can use a combination of a season with a MetroCard between a station inside the boundary and one outside without stopping at the boundary station on TPE services. As I stated earlier, I used to commute between York and Leeds with a York - Micklefield season and a 1-5Z Metrocard. This is perfectly acceptable and is not questioned by TPE guards. However, his combination is not valid on EC, XC and EMT services as shown in the MetroCard leaflet.

Whether this restriction is valid, someone can try it in court if they have the time. Until that, go with what is written down.

 

[Max]

Otherwise combining a WY Metro Card and. SY Travel Master would be acceptable on those TOCs services, and it ain't!

No it wouldn't, as neither are classed as season tickets, so the train would have to call.
SY Travelmasters have some similar conditions. They are explicitly banned from East Coast services (this is printed on the tickets), so that they cannot be combined with cheap season tickets between South Elmsall and Leeds. There is also an additional condition:

b. Zonal TravelMasters may not be used for part payment of rail journeys:
(i) leaving a zone unless the train stops at the last station in that zone to allow passengers to alight or
(ii) entering a zone unless the train stops at the first station in that zone to take up passengers.
c. Journeys, or part journeys, beyond a zone or the county boundary stops/stations, may only be made on payment of a separate fare at the time of boarding.

This means that the tickets cannot even be used for cross boundary travel on non-stop Northern trains such as the Sheffield-Leeds semi-fasts.

 

[John @ home]

WY Metro tickets have never been able to be used with tickets from the boundary station to outside WY.

No, that's not correct. They may be combined in accordance with NRCoC 19 subject to both those conditions and the Metro conditions. The relevant Metro restriction is:

Cross Boundary bus & train travel guide

Where a passenger holds two or more zonal tickets in combination or one is a rail season ticket and one is not, then the train does not need to call at the station where they change from one ticket to the other. Please note that these combinations of tickets do not apply to services operated by CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains or East Coast.

http://www.wymetro.com/NR/rdonlyres...7-9864DAB24758/0/CrossBoundaryinfoleaflet.pdf

So Metro introduces an additional restriction which does not allow its tickets to be combined with services operated by CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains or East Coast. But that still allows:

• a Metro ticket to be used in combination with a Micklefield - York season ticket on a TPE train via Micklefield which does not stop at Micklefield
• a Metro ticket to be used in combination with a Pontefract - Doncaster season ticket on a GC train via Pontefract which does not stop at Pontefract
• a Metro ticket to be used in combination with a Darton - Chesterfield season ticket on a Northern train via Darton which does not stop at Darton.

I have avoided using examples with tickets whose fares are set by South Yorkshire PTE because, as Max has pointed out, these carry additional restrictions.

 

[34D]

subject to both those conditions and the Metro conditions. The relevant Metro restriction is:

Perhaps I'm a pedant, but your extract is headed "Cross Boundary bus & train travel guide".

So is it a guide, or is it conditions that are part of the contract between every metrocard user and the selling outlet?

I still don't see how a metrocard can be valid on EC Wakefield-Keighley but not valid in conjunction with a Steeton-Skipton season under 19c to go Keighley-Skipton.