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Study to consider Borders Railway extension

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Tobbes

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Note the deliverability score for rail on page 24. Sums it up nicely.



To be fair, the whole thread is extreme speculation.
I'm confused as to what 'Deliverability' is - it's presumably perfectly technically deliverable to reinstate the southern Waverley, it's just going to be very expensive for not a lot of obvious benefit as there are very few people south of Hawick.
 

najaB

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Note the deliverability score for rail on page 24. Sums it up nicely.
It's also noteworthy the size of the populations that would be served along the route (page 28) - that's a lot of railway to serve not many people.
 

92002

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Unless there are plans afoot to build a huge number of houses that we don’t know about.
Unless there is a population explosion in the area Harwich would seem as far as is needed. Although from Langholm
and Longtown to Carlisle could be attractive. The bit in between does not have too much potential passenger use.

There is the probable use from Keilder forrest for freoght going to Carlisle and beyond though.

46
Unless there is a population explosion in the area Harwich would seem as far as is needed. Although from Langholm
and Longtown to Carlisle could be attractive. The bit in between does not have too much potential passenger use.

There is the probable use from Keilder forrest for freoght going to Carlisle and beyond though.
That should of course be Hawick.
 

Tobbes

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It does feel reverse engineered to produce the answer 'extend to Hawick and Carlisle'. Now, as an enthusiast, that's fine - it was a beautiful line, with deeply evocative stations- Riccarton Junction, Steele Road - and glorious structures notably the Shankend viaduct; who wouldn't be moved by a certain A3 grinding uphill to conquer a route it absolutely wasn't designed for in common with the small A3 stud at Carlisle, or, if the curves were not too limiting, seeing what the new P2 could do? If it had never closed, we would hardly be talking about closing it now. There's also no obvious reason to me why the Lowland Sleeper couldn't be diverted to run over a reinstated Waverley, providing a direct London link to the Borders.

But my enjoyment and sense of history is on its own a pretty poor reason to spend probably somewhere north of a billion pounds in it, let alone the question of whether (i) this is the best incremental billion pounds or so you could spend on the rail network or (ii) even on the Scottish rail network; the fact that it hasn't featured in any official funding list rather suggests that it isn't the best use of an incremental billion pounds-or-so.

Hawick and maybe Penicuik? But full reinstatement is surely hard to see on anything other than political grounds.
 

markindurham

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Respecting admin's point about speculation here, but it has to be said - there are comparisons with Woodhead here. I agree that extending from Tweedbank to Hawick makes sense. However, from there, even to Longtown, has little or no potential for meaningful revenue earning, in the same way that Hadfield to Penistone on the Woodhead, even today, lacks.

Traffic flow Hawick to Carlisle? Not a lot. Ditto Hadfield towards Sheffield.

Speed? Woodhead was a 60mph railway, apart from its awkward location of Sheffield Victoria & no easy way to access Midland. The Waverley route isn't particularly fast either for Carlisle-Edinburgh services when compared to the route via Beattock & Carstairs.

Longtown to Carlisle makes sense as a long siding for forestry products, but could upgrading to passenger train standards be justified? That's debatable, I suggest.
 

DJ_K666

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Except for the fact that the single line sections on the existing stretch mean that there is little or no capacity for any additional trains.
Demolitions might be necessary to achieve doubling. Obviously whoever spec'd the line at the time must have left. That said perhaps passive provision for double track would have been better at the design stage..
 

waverley47

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Demolitions might be necessary to achieve doubling. Obviously whoever spec'd the line at the time must have left. That said perhaps passive provision for double track would have been better at the design stage..

The land along the whole line was bought up, giving a footprint that allowed for double track along its length.

How's wholesale rebuilding of certain sections, most notably the viaducts over the River Esk and at Hargreen, as well as Newtongrange station, however it is possible inside the land footprint owned by NR.

However, that doesn't really answer the question of "is it work rebuilding the whole thing?"

I agree wholeheartedly that if it were open today, we wouldn't be thinking of closing it, however the timetable runs well enough with 2tph at present, and wiring will speed those journeys up and make timekeeping easier, that redoubling seems a bit redundant.

Extending to Hawick seems a reasonable suggestion, and we'll probably see it done in my lifetime, however beyond that is a basket case, as this report basically proves.

If the report has to justify rebuilding as an environmental benefit to the farmers in the Borders by reducing air pollution, or that providing a 2tph service to Carlisle will somehow kickstart an industrial powerhouse in the Langholm valley, then personally I remain unconvinced.
 

haggishunter

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The argument is made that full reopening would make Carlisle the primary rail connected service centre for Hawick with a journey time 25 minutes less than to Edinburgh. There is a political aspect to that and reconnecting a rail route across the border which appeals to HM Government.

There’s political reasons to back this for Scot Gov too and the document does rate deliverability of the rail option well above a major upgrading of the full A7 to a modern standard from Carlisle to Edinburgh. What’s the costs per mile of a reopened pre-existing rail route vs a wholly new off route alignment for a trunk road?
 

Bald Rick

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What’s the costs per mile of a reopened pre-existing rail route vs a wholly new off route alignment for a trunk road?

Broadly the same.

Next question is - how many people would benefit from a similar spend on the new road compared to a new railway, in this specific example?
 

Class 170101

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Not sure the Scottish Government will build many roads right now. Whether they build many railways is another matter. Whilst there might not be many settlements between Hawick and Carlisle, not many settlements are being served by HS2 so a railway between Hawick and Carlisle should not been seen as a non-starter due to lack of settlements.
 

najaB

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Intermediate settlements
Well you wouldn't expect them to though, would you? High speed rail works best with long runs at cruising speed between large population centres. If you're constantly speeding up and slowing down it's going to be medium speed rail at best.
 

popeter45

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if this gets build i would be really suprised if they dont build it as a electrified line from the start and bundle in electrifcation of the current tweetbank section
 

Bald Rick

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Intermediate settlements

But that’s irrelevant. When you have the three largest centres of population in the country on the route, and plenty more served by the route, there will be plenty of traffic.

Meanwhile we know what the traffic between Carlisle and Edinburgh is, and it’s next to nothing.
 

BrianW

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A rudimentary 'textual analysis' of the 'prospectus' document; wordcounts-
Vision x 15; option x17; opportunity x 13; levelling up x 13, conclusion x 0; recommendation x 0
'£10M to allow the project to move forward (P36) IN ADDITION TO WORK TO ESTABLISH A SHARED UNDERSTANDING OF THE BENEFITS AND CHALLENGES OF OPTIONS TO EXTEND THE EDINBURGH- TWEEDBANK BORDERS RAILWAY TO CARLISLE (sorry pressed Caps Lock, tho' not inappropriate!)
ie Thank you Suckers for paying us for this 'report'- more money needed for us to say 'forget it'. Shared understanding?

A75 linking Carlisle(England) to Cairnryan (for Northern Ireland) a much better bet for UK ( and Scottish?!?) Government support ;) (With HGV truckstop/ Irish Sea border control of course- a true Borders Project)
 
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haggishunter

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Broadly the same.

Next question is - how many people would benefit from a similar spend on the new road compared to a new railway, in this specific example?

Cheers for that on the cost comparison. I guess the question of just how beneficial the road spend would be, could depend on what road in this area? The A7 is by and large a considerably better road SW from Hawick than it is going North, whereas quite a lot of the A68 has been improved North of here, the A7 is very much as it's been for a very long time. This seems to be an issue in this part of the world that there are parallel routes with less than great cross connections between them and it's not clear cut which route would bring the most benefit, I guess it's part of why we still have the single carriageway A702 as the signed principle route linking the Scottish Capital to A74(M) and the rest of the UK's Motorway network.

If I recall the poor state of the A7 vs the A68 North of Galashiels was one of the justifications the Lib Dems had for the Borders Railway reopening. Given where the reopening reached, what was the impediment for not getting the mile or so beyond Tweedbank to properly serve Melrose? It always seemed a bit odd that the line pushed on beyond Galashiels and the big transport interchange, but never made it to Melrose, let alone Hawick.

On Bald Rick's question, the A7 has certainly been improved South of Hawick since the railway shut, but Hawick has still lost 20% of its population since the closure of the railway. Splashing the cash to upgrade the A702 or the A70 to either dual carriageway or even alternating WS2+1 throughout with settlements bypassed would undoubtedly benefit far more people given it would be providing a direct high quality route from Edinburgh and Eastern Scotland to the A74(M) and onwards into England, however it would be for the benefit of people transiting through the region far more than for those that either live or work in it (or would do with better connectivity). Extending the reopened railway to at least Hawick feels like something much more beneficial for that area and it's population itself.

On traditional business case assessments as laid out by the Treasury the Borders Railway wouldn't have happened, you could argue it was just pork barrel politics to buy off the Lib Dems, so it was the political circumstances at the time that got any of the line reopened. However does anyone really now credibly claim that reopening it was a bad idea?

Thus I wouldn't rule out the full reopening purely because of the politics.
 

The Ham

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But that’s irrelevant. When you have the three largest centres of population in the country on the route, and plenty more served by the route, there will be plenty of traffic.

Meanwhile we know what the traffic between Carlisle and Edinburgh is, and it’s next to nothing.

Indeed, annual travel between London and NW was over 10 million pre Covid. Likewise a similar number between London and the West Midlands, and yet more London/Scotland.

Compare that to Carlisle station (total to all locations) is less than 1/4 of one of those flows (with to/from Edinburgh being a small fraction of that) and it's why the two just aren't comparable.
 

najaB

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Meanwhile we know what the traffic between Carlisle and Edinburgh is, and it’s next to nothing.
And considering that the Waverley route is going to be slower Carlisle to Edinburgh than the WCML you're only going to be getting a fraction of that next to nothing.
 

alangla

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I agree wholeheartedly that if it were open today, we wouldn't be thinking of closing it, however the timetable runs well enough with 2tph at present, and wiring will speed those journeys up and make timekeeping easier, that redoubling seems a bit redundant.

1TPH from May remember. 2TPH will only be Saturday daytime and weekday peaks. If you were going to spend money on the route, remodelling Newcraighall to Portobello as a genuine twin track route rather than 2 single lines and improving line speeds a bit seems a much better idea.
 

zwk500

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1TPH from May remember. 2TPH will only be Saturday daytime and weekday peaks. If you were going to spend money on the route, remodelling Newcraighall to Portobello as a genuine twin track route rather than 2 single lines and improving line speeds a bit seems a much better idea.
This may not get you the capacity you think because of the need to have a junction with the sub.
 
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