Study to consider Borders Railway extension

[Malcolmffc]

Borders Railway extension study supported

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-47772563

One would almost think there is an election coming soon and the Tories are worried about their Scottish Borders seats...

 

[Journeyman]

April 1st is his birthday.

Oh, that's comedy gold! You really couldn't make this stuff up.

 

[railjock]

One would almost think there is an election coming soon and the Tories are worried about their Scottish Borders seats...

Ironic given they were against the current Borders Railway.

 

[Glenn1969]

Of course, such a study doesn't guarantee the extension will happen. How does the business case and benefits compare to Castlefield corridor expansion for instance? I think it will happen to Hawick only because that would be entirely in Scotland and thus under the remit of Holyrood's devolved powers

 

[deltic08]

April 1st is his birthday.

Really, or is this an April Fool?

 

[Journeyman]

Really, or is this an April Fool?

It really is! I looked it up - 1st April 1962.

 

[JohnR]

Of course, such a study doesn't guarantee the extension will happen. How does the business case and benefits compare to Castlefield corridor expansion for instance? I think it will happen to Hawick only because that would be entirely in Scotland and thus under the remit of Holyrood's devolved powers

Also, I think the business case would be stronger for that section. Might need fewer improvements to the existing line than a full extension to Carlisle.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

A step closer?

A MULTI-MILLION pound deal has been signed off - bringing plans to add a new rail route and create a new gateway for Carlisle a step closer to fruition.

Politicians from Cumbria joined their counterparts from Northumberland and Scotland for the signing of the £394.5 million Borderlands Growth Deal on Monday.

https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/...derlands-inclusive-growth-deal-is-signed-off/

Would’ve been handy the other week as a diversion when both the West and East Coast had severe delays and blockages!

 

[najaB]

Would’ve been handy the other week as a diversion when both the West and East Coast had severe delays and blockages!

Not really. If (a) it was built as double-track all the way; and (b) there were drivers who signed the route then maybe.

 

[Elwyn]

Presumably the borders railway, is currently mostly operating at maximum capacity? The long single track sections must mean the 2 trains per hour each way is all the line can take (apart perhaps from late at night and overnight). So even if it was extended to Carlisle, it would have little capacity for any diverted or freight services, should anyone want to route them that way?

 

[deltic08]

If it is Carlisle and Cumbria signing, I hope they include reinstating Penrith-Keswick as that is just as important to Cumbria as Carlisle-Hawick is to Scots.

 

[Highlandspring]

Presumably the borders railway, is currently mostly operating at maximum capacity? The long single track sections must mean the 2 trains per hour each way is all the line can take (apart perhaps from late at night and overnight). So even if it was extended to Carlisle, it would have little capacity for any diverted or freight services, should anyone want to route them that way?

Yes exactly right.

 

[Journeyman]

If it is Carlisle and Cumbria signing, I hope they include reinstating Penrith-Keswick as that is just as important to Cumbria as Carlisle-Hawick is to Scots.

I'd say Carlisle to Hawick is extremely unimportant indeed. Tweedbank to Hawick is probably extremely marginal; practically no-one in Hawick would regularly commute to Edinburgh by train.

 

[Journeyman]

Presumably the borders railway, is currently mostly operating at maximum capacity? The long single track sections must mean the 2 trains per hour each way is all the line can take (apart perhaps from late at night and overnight). So even if it was extended to Carlisle, it would have little capacity for any diverted or freight services, should anyone want to route them that way?

Apparently the Borders Railway is a potential candidate for future electrification as (a) it would speed things up and provide a small amount of extra resilience and flexibility, (b) it would need to be electrified as a prelude to becoming a through route again anyway, and (c) it would make the very stiff gradients less of an operational challenge.

Also, the figure being bandied about for full reinstatement as a double-track electric main line all the way to Carlisle is a billion quid. I suspect there's better ways to spend that sort of money.

 

[BigCj34]

Presumably the borders railway, is currently mostly operating at maximum capacity? The long single track sections must mean the 2 trains per hour each way is all the line can take (apart perhaps from late at night and overnight). So even if it was extended to Carlisle, it would have little capacity for any diverted or freight services, should anyone want to route them that way?

There are three ways for freight to get from Carlisle to Edinburgh without needing the Borders line. As for passengers, an RRB would probably take as long as using the Borders route anyway.

 

[Clayton]

Well it would be good fun if happened. Iit’s a beautiful area that needs new blood, maybe they think tourists and young software developers would be attracted there and new houses built if there was a railway.

 

[Elwyn]

I think there’s a fair case for the potential extension to Hawick. The line to Tweedbank has led to a significant increase in house prices throughout that whole area with people now using it as a railhead to travel to Edinburgh. (I think Tweedbank is the busiest station on the line). Extending it to Hawick might prove similarly good for the local economy. However I don’t think there’s any real business case for extending it over the remote and unpopulated lands between Hawick and Carlisle.

 

[daodao]

I think there’s a fair case for the potential extension to Hawick. The line to Tweedbank has led to a significant increase in house prices throughout that whole area with people now using it as a railhead to travel to Edinburgh. (I think Tweedbank is the busiest station on the line). Extending it to Hawick might prove similarly good for the local economy. However I don’t think there’s any real business case for extending it over the remote and unpopulated lands between Hawick and Carlisle.

I agree. If there is a hard Brexit, I expect the Cheviots to become the major international land border between the rUK and the EU in the medium to long term, rather than the artificial line less than 100 years old partitioning the 9 counties of Ulster, which destroyed the GNR(I), CDR, LLSR and the SLNCR. Given the effect such borders have on international rail travel elsewhere (e.g. the main Wilno to Warszawa rail line via Grodno and Białystok, one of the earliest railways in Tsarist Russia, now sees no through traffic as one of the border crossings is closed), the case for reinstating the line between Carlisle and Hawick will die.

 

[scotrail158713]

Not really. If (a) it was built as double-track all the way; and (b) there were drivers who signed the route then maybe.

If it was built as a diversionary route would drivers not then be trained to sign that route? I don’t know the ins and outs of these kind of things though, so I appreciate this might not be the case.

 

[deltic08]

If it was built as a diversionary route would drivers not then be trained to sign that route? I don’t know the ins and outs of these kind of things though, so I appreciate this might not be the case.

Being a diversion route isn't enough reason to reinstate a railway line.

 

[najaB]

If it was built as a diversionary route would drivers not then be trained to sign that route?

Not necessarily. Keeping route knowledge current has costs associated with it so TOCs may or may not choose to do so.

 

[Highlandspring]

For example Virgin don’t sign the Settle Carlisle any more and very very few of the Polmadie men still sign the Sou’ Western via Dumfries and Kilmarnock so why would an extended Borders be any different?

 

[yoyothehobo]

Can we have a forum rule that as soon as the phrase "Would be a useful diversionary route" is used as a major plus point for rebuilding, opening, extending a line, that the thread is immediately locked and the idea immediately discounted.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can we have a forum rule that as soon as the phrase "Would be a useful diversionary route" is used as a major plus point for rebuilding, opening, extending a line, that the thread is immediately locked and the idea immediately discounted.

I think that phrase you mentioned probably translates as “we can’t find much of a reason to build this as a normal route”.

 

[HSTEd]

Electrification of the Tyne Valley would probably do more to improve actual diversionary operations than building Hawick-Carlisle

 

[edwin_m]

Probably the most vulnerable point on the WCML is Carlisle station and the section immediately north of it. It's been badly flooded several times in the last few years and the only alternative route is the ECML. The Waverley route never provided an alternative for this section.

 

[scotrail158713]

Not necessarily. Keeping route knowledge current has costs associated with it so TOCs may or may not choose to do so.

Ok, thanks for explaining that. I thought this was maybe the case but I wasn’t sure.

Being a diversion route isn't enough reason to reinstate a railway line.

Sorry, I wasn’t meaning it in that way. I just meant if it was built, and then it was decided that it was going to be a diversionary route, then maybe some drivers would sign it. As has now been explained, I now know this isn’t necessarily the case.

 

[railjock]

If it is Carlisle and Cumbria signing, I hope they include reinstating Penrith-Keswick as that is just as important to Cumbria as Carlisle-Hawick is to Scots.

For the people of Keswick to get their railway back they’ll need a far better case than that for Carlisle-Hawick.

 

[martinsh]

Given the effect such borders have on international rail travel elsewhere (e.g. the main Wilno to Warszawa rail line via Grodno and Białystok, one of the earliest railways in Tsarist Russia, now sees no through traffic as one of the border crossings is closed), .

VILNIUS please !

 

[deltic08]

For the people of Keswick to get their railway back they’ll need a far better case than that for Carlisle-Hawick.

How do you know? The case for Carlisle-Hawick has not been made yet.