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Study to consider Borders Railway extension

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by och aye, 10 Apr 2017.

  1. Northhighland

    Northhighland Member

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    I suspect from your posts which are frankly quite rude, that few people in the Borders will have missed your presence. It is a lovely part of the world, full of really nice people who're very welcoming. I have spent many happy days there as a child and regularly as an adult. I have to say I do not recognise any of the stereotypes you mention.

    As to reinstating the line to Carlisle, I struggle to see the economic case for this, it would be difficult and expensive and unless there were a bigger strategic advantage then hard to see a case. Hawick though for sure would benefit from additional transport links. The cost of such schemes should be considered against the cost of building and maintaining cities like Edinburgh. Good transport links would make Hawick a commuter town for Edinburgh, far better to build housing in Hawick than Edinburgh in my view.
     
  2. Steamysandy

    Steamysandy Member

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    I was speaking to someone recently who has family in Hawick.
    Her view was that as it stands the train is of little use to her because it terminates short of Hawick. So she drives right through
    As I see it Galashiels is the only one of the Border towns properly served at present and that being the case there must be a large number of potential passengers out there who are being lost particularly from Hawick.
     
  3. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

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    Whether it makes sense to drive through depends on where you're going. The universal factor in Scottish rail reopening projects so far has been an easier and faster commute into the major employment centres of Glasgow and Edinburgh. If your journey is to pretty much anywhere else, it'll still probably be easier to just drive all the way. That's true of most journeys from anywhere to anywhere really. Someone living in Hawick commuting to Edinburgh now has the easy option of driving to Tweedbank and then letting the train take the strain of getting them into the centre of the city in a comfortable and timely fashion. Otherwise, they'll have to drive all the way and then have the joys of parking in the city centre.
     
  4. oldman

    oldman Member

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    Housing is going to be built in Edinburgh and the surrounding area - investment in transport is needed there. The forecast is another 50K people in Edinburgh, East and Midlothian by 2028; for the whole Scottish Borders just over 2000.

    Hawick is too far away to become a significant commuter town - some people already there commute but people aren't going to choose to move to Hawick over places closer to the city.
     
  5. Steamysandy

    Steamysandy Member

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    Living in East Lothian,I am aware of the amount of house building going on and planned.BUT to my mind the infrastructure is not keeping up with it I e the regular complaints re passengers being left at Musselburgh.
    In addition I would query the house price demographics being used.How many people can afford half a million for a house?
    I heard recently of one site where building has stopped
    Are we bheading for an Irish style bubble with empty houses littering the Landscape ( or what's left of it!)?
     
  6. tomatwark

    tomatwark Member

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    Haggisbotherer's remarks about people in the Borders are pretty offensive, and are not the real picture.

    I moved here 13 years ago, run a business, employ local people and while there are problems in certain parts, this can be said for anywhere in the UK.

    Perhaps Crossrail should be stopped because of all the crime in London or HS2 because of the crime in Manchester and Birmingham.

    I wonder if the reason he left, was that he was asked too.
     
  7. JohnR

    JohnR Member

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    And how much traffic would that be? Worth £600m?
     
  8. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    Corrected your typo.
     
  9. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    You don't know and I don't know until the feasibility study is done, but it could be.

    Who knows what it will be over 60 years.
     
  10. JohnR

    JohnR Member

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    Are you suggesting that an extension from Hawick to Carlisle could be built for £600,000 ??? My figure is more likely to be closer than yours.
     
  11. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    ,
    No, but that the value of the traffic each year would be worth about £600k!
     
  12. JohnR

    JohnR Member

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    I'd be very surprised if the diversion traffic generated that amount of additional revenue/savings every year. And even if it did, thats only paying back over 100 years. Not sure that will win any points in a Business Case.
     
  13. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    Who mentioned diversion traffic? I didn't.
     
  14. JohnR

    JohnR Member

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    Perhaps you should read the post I was replying to before you replied to mine.
     
  15. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    It would be easier to give me a number.
     
  16. Northhighland

    Northhighland Member

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    Agreed based on the current situation

    Struggle to see the sense in creating ever bigger cities. Costs rise and quality of life is not that great in some of the suburbs of Edinburgh.

    We need more diverse housing solutions for families that are healthier than city life.
     
  17. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    Maybe enough commuters in the peaks could justify an express service non-stop between Gala and Edinburgh and vice versa.

    That would be around an hour journey time from Hawick stopping at St Boswells, Melrose and Gala only..
     
  18. JamesT

    JamesT Member

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    From an environmental POV, city living is probably to be encouraged. Higher density housing uses less resources per person and it's easier to provide decent public transport and other facilities when your users are all nearby. Whereas the countryside almost demands a car by default.
     
  19. Journeyman

    Journeyman Established Member

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    How many people in Hawick work in Edinburgh, at least on a daily basis? I'd suspect it's not actually that many, and the further south you go from Galashiels, the number will drop off sharply.
     
  20. Altnabreac

    Altnabreac Established Member

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    279 people living in Hawick travelled over 60km to work at the time of the 2011 census. I shouldn't imagine its hugely different now.

    I'd think the majority of those 279 people are probably working in the Lothians but by no means all of them will be central Edinburgh and even then rail will struggle to get more than 10-20% of the market so we're talking somewhere in the region of 20-30 people per day.

    That's not to say more of a market couldn't be created in the longer term. I also think there'd be a potential commuter market for Hawick - Newtown St Boswells (for the Council HQ) and the BGH (if a Melrose station were positioned close to the hospital). But its clear that its a harder nut to crack than Galashiels - Edinburgh journeys where you already had more like 1000 people a day already commuting to the Lothians.
     
  21. Journeyman

    Journeyman Established Member

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    Thanks, that's very useful info - it certainly makes Hawick sound a rather more dubious proposition than Gala/Tweedbank. It also doesn't tell us how many of those people head south towards Carlisle (which is 72km away according to Google Maps). If they're split between Edinburgh and Carlisle, an extension from Tweedbank to Hawick will be no good to those travelling south, but building a line all the way through is just far too expensive to contemplate.
     
  22. JohnR

    JohnR Member

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    I believe the figure was something like 46 people from Hawick and the Borders commuted to Carlisle and Cumbria. Probably indicates more of a problem with the local roads than anything else, but you're not going to get a lot of revenue from there, but it would no doubt increase as Cumbrians decide to relocate to the Borders, because theres a rail line handy.
     
  23. Altnabreac

    Altnabreac Established Member

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    Yes in 2011 less than 50 people commuted from Scottish Borders as a whole to Carlisle. You might imagine a number of them would be found in the Newcastleton area which is significantly closer to Carlisle than Hawick.
     
  24. Journeyman

    Journeyman Established Member

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    All I can conclude from this is that Tweedbank to Hawick is somewhat unlikely to ever be justifiable, and Hawick - Carlisle is in "snowball in Hell" territory.
     
  25. JohnR

    JohnR Member

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    Quite. If there was the possibility of a lot of freight [timber] being moved, that might help justify it, I suppose. If the line (even just the southern section) had been kept open for freight... all these things would make starting a new passenger service more viable. But it really isnt viable, and only really existed because of inter-company rivalry, and certainly the section south of Hawick was obsolete the day it was opened.
     
  26. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    You might be surprised. It is well known passengers do not like to change mode on a journey and for some do not like to change at all.

    If a through train from the Chiltern line via Birmingham NS and one from the East Midlands, Yorkshire via Settle Carlisle is run who knows. At the moment there is not a through train from Leicester via Nottingham to Edinburgh. Two through trains and half a dozen Gala-Carlisle trains would be a good service.

    A straighter route would be needed around Riccarton Junction avoiding reverse curves for higher speed.
     
  27. Journeyman

    Journeyman Established Member

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    I know quite a lot has changed since 1969, but the through St Pancras - Edinburgh services via the Waverley Line were practically empty north of Kettering. The line has absolutely no value as a through route.
     
  28. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Maybe not no value, but it brings very little to the table that the ECML/WCML don't provide. And even less once HS2 phase 1 opens.
     
  29. Clayton

    Clayton Member

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    That’s an amazing stat. I guess not many people live in the area, and maybe those that do arent the kind who commute a distance for highly paid jobs. Plus there’s plenty of room to drive and park!
     
  30. 47271

    47271 Established Member

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    Absolutely, if you remove the 'I guess' and the 'maybe' from your second sentence then you've summed up the situation perfectly!
     

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