Study to consider Borders Railway extension

[47271]

There has been quiet but excellent progress on Levenmouth in the last year. Transport Scotland have taken over promoting the project from Fife Council and Peter Brett Associates have been doing a thorough Option Appraisal report:
https://www.transport.gov.scot/our-approach/strategy/levenmouth-sustainable-transport-study/

The Stage 2 and 3 reports should be published over the next 6 months or so and assuming that a Levenmouth Rail Link is chosen as the preferred Stage 3 option then it could be official Scottish Government policy before the end of the year.

Stunning, I had no idea - do you want to open a new thread on it when there's the next piece of news?

 

[railjock]

That’s an amazing stat. I guess not many people live in the area, and maybe those that do arent the kind who commute a distance for highly paid jobs. Plus there’s plenty of room to drive and park!

Does Carlisle have a lot of people commuting to it for work full stop?

 

[Altnabreac]

Does Carlisle have a lot of people commuting to it for work full stop?

No. Which is another reason why it’s a poor choice for a rail route reopening.

 

[DH1Commuter]

For interest, from those in the industry at the time, what were the reasons for the failure of the project to build a basic single-track line at the southern end, for timber purposes, in the 1990s? Was this something that got stopped in the run-up to privatisation, or did the numbers just not make sense? Were there engineering issues?

I realise it changes nothing now (personal belief: Hawick should be/will be done for regeneration reasons, Carlisle will not be), but am curious as to why what seemed a sensible proposal for sensible reasons (high-volume, heavy freight being taken off the roads, a bit like coal) never got the nod.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

For interest, from those in the industry at the time, what were the reasons for the failure of the project to build a basic single-track line at the southern end, for timber purposes, in the 1990s? Was this something that got stopped in the run-up to privatisation, or did the numbers just not make sense? Were there engineering issues?

I realise it changes nothing now (personal belief: Hawick should be/will be done for regeneration reasons, Carlisle will not be), but am curious as to why what seemed a sensible proposal for sensible reasons (high-volume, heavy freight being taken off the roads, a bit like coal) never got the nod.

I looked after rail borne timber flows in the late 1980's for what was then Speedlink Distribution. The traffic was barely marginal - and not at all profitable. It added volume to the trains and some cash flow and not much more. We were getting £90 a wagon (a converted VDA to OTA - done cheaply) , from Taynuilt or similar to Workington and a cracking £50 from Carmarthen to Chirk0. Every wagon of course came back empty and we were lucky to get one trip a week - due to the long hauls and remoteness of some of the loading points.

We had long and complex discussions with interested parties - Forestry owners and wood consumers - they were averse to signing up long term contracts and could not really promise enough traffic for block loads. Though some of these now exist in a limited form. In some cases, then - it was hardly worth farming the timber as the transport etc costs were higher than the wood value.

I am reminded some years earlier on a ski-ing holiday in St Johann in Tyrol (which had a large pulp mill) and being of an inquisitive nature asked the rail staff (very amenable) as to why there were numbers of PKP (Polish) coal wagons coming in with timber - when Austria clearly has plenty growing. It was Russian timber , transhipped at the Polish / Russian border - moved virtually free to the border with Austria as the Russians were desperate to earn some (any) hard currency........all about economics I am afraid.

 

[70014IronDuke]

No. Which is another reason why it’s a poor choice for a rail route reopening.

Well, it must have some, because there is an S&C train from Leeds timed to give commuters a run in from Kirkby Stephen. It even had such a train c 1960.
Ditto, it now has two trains arriving in the 08.00 - 09.00 hour from Newcastle/Middlesbrough, one from Barrow and one (maybe 2) from Dumfries.
This is not to say commuter traffic to Carlisle could justify, let alone support, a train in on a re-instated Waverley route, of course. I have no doubt it would do nothing of the sort.

 

[route101]

Well, it must have some, because there is an S&C train from Leeds timed to give commuters a run in from Kirkby Stephen. It even had such a train c 1960.
Ditto, it now has two trains arriving in the 08.00 - 09.00 hour from Newcastle/Middlesbrough, one from Barrow and one (maybe 2) from Dumfries.
This is not to say commuter traffic to Carlisle could justify, let alone support, a train in on a re-instated Waverley route, of course. I have no doubt it would do nothing of the sort.

There is definitely commuters from Dumfries/Annan . To Glasgow , dont think there would many depsite it being just over an hour .

 

[JohnR]

I looked after rail borne timber flows in the late 1980's for what was then Speedlink Distribution. The traffic was barely marginal - and not at all profitable. It added volume to the trains and some cash flow and not much more. We were getting £90 a wagon (a converted VDA to OTA - done cheaply) , from Taynuilt or similar to Workington and a cracking £50 from Carmarthen to Chirk0. Every wagon of course came back empty and we were lucky to get one trip a week - due to the long hauls and remoteness of some of the loading points.

We had long and complex discussions with interested parties - Forestry owners and wood consumers - they were averse to signing up long term contracts and could not really promise enough traffic for block loads. Though some of these now exist in a limited form. In some cases, then - it was hardly worth farming the timber as the transport etc costs were higher than the wood value.

I am reminded some years earlier on a ski-ing holiday in St Johann in Tyrol (which had a large pulp mill) and being of an inquisitive nature asked the rail staff (very amenable) as to why there were numbers of PKP (Polish) coal wagons coming in with timber - when Austria clearly has plenty growing. It was Russian timber , transhipped at the Polish / Russian border - moved virtually free to the border with Austria as the Russians were desperate to earn some (any) hard currency........all about economics I am afraid.

From memory the plan was to open the line just as the Kielder Forest was hitting peak production, and I understand there would have been 2 or 3 train loads a day - the production is massive there. However, the Government were unwilling to provide help with the capital funding, so the traffic went by road. The Government then spent money on upgrading the roads.

 

[CEN60]

As a rail engineer (involved in the reopening of the Borders Line from the original parliamentary stage) there is a reason it stops at Tweedbank - and that reason is cost to renew / reopen infrastructure over the rest of the route - extension to Carlisle is not / will not happen. I understand the "well meaning" groups that campaign and support it - but....

For your information - the original estimate to reopen to Tweedbank was around £80m back in the day - by the time they got around to actually do it the cost was around £353m (£295m in construction cost) just to Tweedbank.

 

[Clayton]

As a rail engineer (involved in the reopening of the Borders Line from the original parliamentary stage) there is a reason it stops at Tweedbank - and that reason is cost to renew / reopen infrastructure over the rest of the route - extension to Carlisle is not / will not happen. I understand the "well meaning" groups that campaign and support it - but....

For your information - the original estimate to reopen to Tweedbank was around £80m back in the day - by the time they got around to actually do it the cost was around £353m (£295m in construction cost) just to Tweedbank.

Yes obviously it would cost money. It is probably not going to become anyone’s top priority, but if it is decided that the economic and social benefits are sufficient then it will be done.

 

[JohnR]

As a rail engineer (involved in the reopening of the Borders Line from the original parliamentary stage) there is a reason it stops at Tweedbank - and that reason is cost to renew / reopen infrastructure over the rest of the route - extension to Carlisle is not / will not happen. I understand the "well meaning" groups that campaign and support it - but....

For your information - the original estimate to reopen to Tweedbank was around £80m back in the day - by the time they got around to actually do it the cost was around £353m (£295m in construction cost) just to Tweedbank.

Using that information I've done a rough and ready calculation of present day costs for the extensions. I've used construction industry inflation from ONS, rather than RPI.

The full cost of the Tweedbank section works out at £11.76 m/mile. Now you might argue that was inflated, due to having to deal with mining subsidence, etc, but then you have to factor in additional expenditure needed on the existing line to accommodate more trains (longer loops etc).

Inflated to 2019, that comes in at £15.374 m/mile. So Tweedbank to Hawick is now £261m and Hawick to Carlisle is £699.5m.

I really cannot see anyone proposing to spend £700m on the Hawick to Carlisle section. A much better proposition would be to spend £100m on reopening the line to Penicuik (7 miles at £15 m/mile), or to Peebles for £292m. You could then spend the other £400m on other rail re-openings.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes obviously it would cost money. It is probably not going to become anyone’s top priority, but if it is decided that the economic and social benefits are sufficient then it will be done.

Regrettably , you can have all the business cases in the world , but nothing will happen until you have either firm commitment and cash. There are other places where there is a file full of worked up business case which would (probably) be worth doing , but did not happen due to the withdrawal of funding sources. Such is life.

 

[CEN60]

Using that information I've done a rough and ready calculation of present day costs for the extensions. I've used construction industry inflation from ONS, rather than RPI.

The full cost of the Tweedbank section works out at £11.76 m/mile. Now you might argue that was inflated, due to having to deal with mining subsidence, etc, but then you have to factor in additional expenditure needed on the existing line to accommodate more trains (longer loops etc).

Inflated to 2019, that comes in at £15.374 m/mile. So Tweedbank to Hawick is now £261m and Hawick to Carlisle is £699.5m.

I really cannot see anyone proposing to spend £700m on the Hawick to Carlisle section. A much better proposition would be to spend £100m on reopening the line to Penicuik (7 miles at £15 m/mile), or to Peebles for £292m. You could then spend the other £400m on other rail re-openings.

Hallelujah Brother!! - someone else that talks sense and understands - oh and for the record we looked at extending to Melrose - but didn't think the locals would have appreciated the alignment that went across the Rugby Pitch!!!!

 

[David M]

for the record we looked at extending to Melrose - but didn't think the locals would have appreciated the alignment that went across the Rugby Pitch!!!!

Why would the route have gone anywhere near the rugby pitch? That's a completely new suggestion to me and involves more than just going over a rugby pitch - it's a completely different part of town to the original route. Logic suggests moving the bypass slightly over towards the hospital side and using Melrose station.

 

[Brush 4]

CEN60 seems to be implying that even a Hawick extension is not going to happen.

If the Hawick line went through Melrose Rugby Club, it would also go through many houses on either side so, that can't (shouldn't) be a serious idea. The new bits of A6091 and A68 mostly don't use the trackbed, as Satellite will show. Only a short stretch just east of Melrose station is taken, plus 5 places where the roads cross the trackbed from Tweedbank to St Boswells.

The sat imagery of Galashiels is well out of date, as the line isn't even under construction! This is good as it shows what can and was done to fit the railway in. A track and platform was somehow squeezed in next to the A7. Beyond there, a long building was demolished, the line squeezed around the back of Asda and then straight through some sheds used by businesses. Amusingly, the map version shows the buildings, and the railway going through them. I don't recall going through any sheds on the train in 2017!

Anyway, looking at Galashiels illustrates that if the commitment is there, great things can be done. There is nothing physically from Tweedbank to Hawick that is any more daunting than on the 35 miles from Edinburgh.

 

[railjock]

CEN60 seems to be implying that even a Hawick extension is not going to happen.

If the Hawick line went through Melrose Rugby Club, it would also go through many houses on either side so, that can't (shouldn't) be a serious idea. The new bits of A6091 and A68 mostly don't use the trackbed, as Satellite will show. Only a short stretch just east of Melrose station is taken, plus 5 places where the roads cross the trackbed from Tweedbank to St Boswells.

The sat imagery of Galashiels is well out of date, as the line isn't even under construction! This is good as it shows what can and was done to fit the railway in. A track and platform was somehow squeezed in next to the A7. Beyond there, a long building was demolished, the line squeezed around the back of Asda and then straight through some sheds used by businesses. Amusingly, the map version shows the buildings, and the railway going through them. I don't recall going through any sheds on the train in 2017!

Anyway, looking at Galashiels illustrates that if the commitment is there, great things can be done. There is nothing physically from Tweedbank to Hawick that is any more daunting than on the 35 miles from Edinburgh.

Apart from the gas or electricity pipes that caused Tweedbank station to be relocated perhaps?

 

[Brush 4]

Tweedbank is still on the trackbed so, it can't have been moved far. Underground pipes have to be taken into account on all rail, road or building jobs, just part of the routine.

 

[tomatwark]

From memory I think the line does not go over the electric cables, they cross the old track bed just after Tweedbank and will only be come an issue if the line is extended to Hawick.

I am sure there are warning signs as you enter the car park at Tweedbank

 

[adrock1976]

After reading some of the comments regarding the extension to Carlisle, I feel that if there are existing through fares that can be used on the bus, the buses should be well integrated to meet the trains at the end of the line at Tweedbank (or Hawick if extended).

These comments regarding Carlisle extensions has got me thinking as to which of the following will happen first in my lifetime, which are as follows:

1) Elvis Presley is found alive and well at Prestwick Airport
2) Glasgow to bring back trams
3) Reopening the railway from Tweedbank to Carlisle
4) My team Aston Villa to win the European Cup again, doing it the proper way i.e. winning the top flight division first as used to be the case
5) Tony Blair, Jack Straw, Geoff Hoon, George Bush Jr, et al to go on trial for war crimes at Den Haag

I would have 2) being first to happen and 3) the least likely to happen during my lifetime.

What do others think?

 

[keith1879]

After reading some of the comments regarding the extension to Carlisle, I feel that if there are existing through fares that can be used on the bus, the buses should be well integrated to meet the trains at the end of the line at Tweedbank (or Hawick if extended).

These comments regarding Carlisle extensions has got me thinking as to which of the following will happen first in my lifetime, which are as follows:

1) Elvis Presley is found alive and well at Prestwick Airport
2) Glasgow to bring back trams
3) Reopening the railway from Tweedbank to Carlisle
4) My team Aston Villa to win the European Cup again, doing it the proper way i.e. winning the top flight division first as used to be the case
5) Tony Blair, Jack Straw, Geoff Hoon, George Bush Jr, et al to go on trial for war crimes at Den Haag

I would have 2) being first to happen and 3) the least likely to happen during my lifetime.

What do others think?

Well - since you ask
1 is of course physically impossible and only included for comic effect, 5 is sadly politically incredibly unlikely so I would say that only 2,3 and 4 can happen.
I would say 2 is quite feasible since Glasgow seems to be very keen on public transport and remarkably I think that the full Waverley route reopening could happen (but very unlikely). Aston Villa winning the European Cup? I don't know how any team is going to break into the "big six" in England - but Villa, Everton and (gritting my teeth and holding my nose) Leeds are the three who might. So it's 2,3 and 4 in that order for me ....but realistically I only expect 2 to be feasible.

 

[keith1879]

I should add that my team are Burnley and it's not so long ago that I was using Burnley playing European football as a metaphor for the impossible......

 

[HaggisBotherer]

I suspect from your posts which are frankly quite rude, that few people in the Borders will have missed your presence. It is a lovely part of the world, full of really nice people who're very welcoming. I have spent many happy days there as a child and regularly as an adult. I have to say I do not recognise any of the stereotypes you mention.

Just for your own info, read my post #588 for a few of the things I witnessed while living there.

 

[och aye]

Borders Railway extension study supported

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-47772563

The UK government has announced its backing for a feasibility study into extending the Borders Railway.

It could see the line from Edinburgh to Tweedbank taken to Hawick and Newcastleton and then on to Carlisle.

Scottish Secretary David Mundell confirmed his government's support - as part of the Borderlands growth deal - in a letter to MP John Lamont.

Mr Lamont said it was "great news" for the campaign to take the line to Hawick and beyond.

"We need to improve transport links across the whole of the Borders and extending the Borders Railway is part of this," said the Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk MP.

"A full feasibility study will look in detail at the costs and benefits of bringing the railway to Hawick, Newcastleton and on to Carlisle.

"I'd expect this to look at things like impact on businesses, jobs and tourism as well as the implications of getting freight off our roads."

 

[Journeyman]

Borders Railway extension study supported

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-47772563

Is this new? I seem to remember reading something very similar months ago.

Still of the view that Hawick is marginal at best, and Carlisle is a very dead duck.

 

[InOban]

I think that what's new is UK government support, not just ScoGov backing.

 

[Journeyman]

I think that what's new is UK government support, not just ScoGov backing.

Ah, that makes sense.

 

[Steamysandy]

The Waverley Route was always freight oriented and with the East Coast mainline becoming Saturated with Passenger trains then it starts to make sense to look for an alternative route for freight as well as such local traffic as there is.

 

[Class 170101]

I think that what's new is UK government support, not just ScoGov backing.

Really? With Failing Grayling in charge. Seems he was frightened to travel by train today

 

[Roose]

The Waverley Route was always freight oriented and with the East Coast mainline becoming Saturated with Passenger trains then it starts to make sense to look for an alternative route for freight as well as such local traffic as there is.

Given capacity constraints on the existing route north from Tweedbank (you'll remember that the lack of a business case led to it being built as substantially singled with 'dynamic loops') it seems that such an alternative route is unlikely to be the Waverley Route.

Likely that the great 'Borderlands' project will lead to little more than new paving in Court Square outside the station in Carlisle and some good lunches for council leaders on both sides of the border at a series of 'productive' and 'important' meetings that will ultimately achieve little.

 

[JohnR]

Really? With Failing Grayling in charge. Seems he was frightened to travel by train today

April 1st is his birthday.