Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[LBSCR Times]

Adrian Sanders MP (LibDem, Torbay) has opined on LibDem Voice. Sorry Adrian, agree with all you say right up to the end: we do need to be thinking about an alternative, and the LSWR route is sensibly clear favourite - even if it doesn't immediately help Torbay!

It could do!
Services from the North / London reverse at Exeter then via Okehampton, to Plymouth, and keep going to Newton Abbot, then reverse again for Torbay?
Run them as 2 half size sets (5 car IEP's) to Plymouth and split for Penzance and Paignton.
Just leave a residual service via the coast, perhaps Barnstaple to Paignton?

 

[Bald Rick]

I wouldn't worry too much. I can't see them closing the existing main line.

Exactly.

Which means the diversion has to make a case on its own, plus the benefit it would give on the occasional (and possibly more frequent) closure of the existing route, planned or unplanned.

If the quoted £250m is found down the back of the HM Treasury sofa, it would be good to see the folk of Devon and Cornwall asked what they would most prefer to see it spent on to benefit the regional transport system and/or local economy.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If Adrian Sanders and Sarah Wooleston don't kick up a proper stink about the proposed alternative doing jack all for their constituents down here in the Bay, I will be most annoyed.

I wouldn't worry too much. I can't see them closing the existing main line.

In fact, if the coast route is used slightly less by Plymouth services thanks to some services being routed via Okehampton, then there'll be more paths for extra Riviera services and/or more time to keep up with maintenance along the sea wall!

 

[Rich McLean]

An idea for the route, would be a 1tp2hr stopping services to Plymouth via Tavistock, maybe even hourly if demand is there, with capacity on the line being used for diversions

 

[YorkshireBear]

It could do!
Services from the North / London reverse at Exeter then via Okehampton, to Plymouth, and keep going to Newton Abbot, then reverse again for Torbay?
Run them as 2 half size sets (5 car IEP's) to Plymouth and split for Penzance and Paignton.
Just leave a residual service via the coast, perhaps Barnstaple to Paignton?

Are you taking the michael?

 

[Tobbes]

Exactly.

Which means the diversion has to make a case on its own, plus the benefit it would give on the occasional (and possibly more frequent) closure of the existing route, planned or unplanned.

If the quoted £250m is found down the back of the HM Treasury sofa, it would be good to see the folk of Devon and Cornwall asked what they would most prefer to see it spent on to benefit the regional transport system and/or local economy.

If the £250m is found in the NR credit card, then I'm sure that no-one in Devon and Cornwall will be given a vote. At some level, we have a representative government rather than one by referendum. I wouldn't be surprised if NR came up with Okehampton - Tavistock as a feasible option that it was announced this summer / autumn, along with electrification early in CP6 when the High Output Train was finished with the GWML and Newbury electrification.

 

[bnm]

If Adrian Sanders and Sarah Wooleston don't kick up a proper stink about the proposed alternative doing jack all for their constituents down here in the Bay, I will be most annoyed.

There is a reason why the Newton Road is gridlocked from 7 in the morning and 4 in the afternoon, and why the carriages are full and standing from EXC to NTA. It's because a vast number of people working and learning in Exeter come from Torbay! Shocking, I know

Good grief, what needs to be done to make them realize its not all about trying to get to damned London or Penzance all the time? Maybe we could have a Cream Tea Hub somewhere for their convenience? A Cider Chord perhaps? Possibly someone with a funny accent can read out the announcements? :neutral:

Hear, hear.

130,000 people in Torbay and 80,000 people in the South Hams left with a fair weather railway whilst folk in Plymouth and Cornwall have the supposed joy of meandering sedately round Dartmoor, reversing once or twice, to get to points north and east of Exeter, every time there are issues along the sea wall.

No. Don't waste time and money rebuilding the 'Withered Arm', get planning and building a Dawlish avoiding line NOW!

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly.

Which means the diversion has to make a case on its own, plus the benefit it would give on the occasional (and possibly more frequent) closure of the existing route, planned or unplanned.

And I think you can only do that by doing something that provides a year round benefit to people. That's why the case for reopening Okehampton stacks up the best IMO.

 

[The Ham]

Depending on how long it takes to get to Plymouth going via Oakhampton SWT's could make quite a bit if they run services as an extension to their services to Exeter. As with only a few people traveling from places like Salisbury, Yeovil and even Basingstoke or possibly even further up each paying about £70 each and it wouldn't take many of them to make it viable to run an hourly service.

 

[Frank Scully]

While it is laudable that NR are taking the Dawlish problem seriously, I am extremely disappointed that NR have publicly discounted building the Dawlish avoiding line already. That must be the fastest internal route planning and costing exercise ever taken

If we imagine a scenario where the current Dawlish route is repaired and the Oke route is reopened to passenger traffic, would the Oke route be suitable for diversionary intercity traffic? I don't want to get all doom and gloom here but given that the current mainline Brunel Bridge over the Tamar is a single track with a pathetically low speed limit, how much is going to spent on the Oke route?

My concern is that if these storms become the norm for our winters, then Dawlish could be wrecked far more frequently. I'm not sure how much the rebuild will cost this year but multiply that over a storm of this magnitude occuring every 5 years - isn't it worth seriously considering the inland route now? No I guess not. We're English - what's the cheapest option we can build that puts a plaster over the problem for a few more years? Apologies for the sarcasm but this kind of thinking has blighted this country for years. I hope the MPs of Devon and Cornwall put serious pressure on the DfT to make them reassess their proposals (if indeed the BBC report is accurate).

 

[yorksrob]

Of course it would be. They manage diversions over all sorts of single track sections (Yeovil being the noteable example). A short section of single track on an otherwise double route would be even easier to manage, as with Ribblehead. Worth noting also that the Hastings line manages an intensive commuter service with four such sections.

 

[richw]

If the quoted £250m is found down the back of the HM Treasury sofa, it would be good to see the folk of Devon and Cornwall asked what they would most prefer to see it spent on to benefit the regional transport system and/or local economy.

Improved local economy comes hand in hand with improved transport systems.
It was quoted the other day that Cornwall will lose £20m in economy during the Dawlish line closure (based on 6 week projected closure)

If these figures are correct, the £250 million will pay for itself for the diversionary route at 71 weeks of closures.
Is there any data of how many days/ weeks have been lost in the last 10 years due to incidents between Plymouth and Exeter (not necessarily just at Dawlish), or even just network rail maintenance?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2014/02/11-network-rail-denies-dawlish-plan.html?

Further news....

 

[ianhr]

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2014/02/11-network-rail-denies-dawlish-plan.html?

Further news....

It seems they are just covering themselves while keeping all options open. They probably know that it is unlikely that there will be funding for anything other than immediate repairs to the sea wall.

If either the ex-LSWR line or the avoiding line are ever built it will only be as the result of huge political pressure + local funding, in reaction against London centred decision making.

Has anyone done a comparison of costs, engineering challenge, traffic potential etc between the Okehampton-Bere Alston route and the Borders Railway to Galashiels? I suspect that the Borders Railway would never have been rebuilt if it were not for Scottish devolution. I don't have any hard data but I suspect that the Okehampton route to Plymouth, or the section needing reconstruction is: (i) shorter, (ii) would be cheaper and (iii) serve a larger population and generate more traffic. Furthermore the Borders Railway has no use whatsoever as a diversionary route.

Those opposing the Okehampton route have made much of it being slow. The stretch from Exeter to Okehampton could be upgraded for higher speeds and improve access to a wider area of Mid Devon & East Cornwall. A direct rail connection to the rest of the network from a large area with poor public transport would be a huge economic benefit. The Barnstaple line is slow but well used, it is N. Devon's only rail line. Plymouth & Exeter both suffer from rush hour traffic congestion making driving to work slow as well. As an emergency diversion most people would rather stay on a train than change to buses even if the train takes an hour longer than a replacement bus. At least trapped rolling stock could be transferred and exchanged efficiently rather than having to move an entire HST set on low loaders.

 

[IanXC]

I'm not sure I buy the £250m figure for Okehampton, considering Bere Alston-Tavistock is about 5 miles and costed at £26m, with Tavistock-Meldon being about 16 miles? Clearly there will be other works to the existing lines at either end but even so?

 

[richw]

I'm not sure I buy the £250m figure for Okehampton, considering Bere Alston-Tavistock is about 5 miles and costed at £26m, with Tavistock-Meldon being about 16 miles? Clearly there will be other works to the existing lines at either end but even so?

I think the Tavistock to Meldon would be expensive due to the need to construct new Viaducts, and numerous compulsory purchase orders.

 

[ianhr]

I'm not sure I buy the £250m figure for Okehampton, considering Bere Alston-Tavistock is about 5 miles and costed at £26m, with Tavistock-Meldon being about 16 miles? Clearly there will be other works to the existing lines at either end but even so?

I would have thought it could be done incrementally starting with a relatively low cost scheme something like this:
1. parallel tracks Crediton-Yeoford could become a long loop before the junction with the Barnstaple line.
2. a loop at Okehampton.
3. a loop at Bere Alston.
This should allow a basic Exeter-Plymouth service passing at Okehampton, while retaining the Gunnislake line either direct or as a shuttle from Bere Alston. There would be some limited capacity for diversions/stock transfer. Okehampton & Tavistock regain their direct links.
The most expensive problems are probably Meldon Viaduct & compulsory purchase of properties in Tavistock ( as richw says above).

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I think the Tavistock to Meldon would be expensive due to the need to construct new Viaducts, and numerous compulsory purchase orders.

The North Meldon viaduct imo is repairable, at a much lower sum than a new one. My guestimate would be around 10 million! New timber decking, sandblasting the wrought ironwork, replacing wasted metal, and more steel bracing.
(The South viaduct is not as strong, it now has a concrete deck and used by the cycleway)
Tavistock Council have been shortsighted, and the demolition will add substantially to the cost.
Rolling stock - trains with guards vans, or a parcels van adapted for bikes. Ideal for carrying thousands of bikes, which could make the railway hugely popular. A bike trail!

 

[47802]

Hear, hear.

130,000 people in Torbay and 80,000 people in the South Hams left with a fair weather railway whilst folk in Plymouth and Cornwall have the supposed joy of meandering sedately round Dartmoor, reversing once or twice, to get to points north and east of Exeter, every time there are issues along the sea wall.

No. Don't waste time and money rebuilding the 'Withered Arm', get planning and building a Dawlish avoiding line NOW!

To me that sounds like the better option, whilst I suspect that the local benefits of reopening the Okehampton route could be largely served by reopening to Tavistock and Okehampton without the need to put the missing link back.

 

[tbtc]

If Adrian Sanders and Sarah Wooleston don't kick up a proper stink about the proposed alternative doing jack all for their constituents down here in the Bay, I will be most annoyed.

There is a reason why the Newton Road is gridlocked from 7 in the morning and 4 in the afternoon, and why the carriages are full and standing from EXC to NTA. It's because a vast number of people working and learning in Exeter come from Torbay! Shocking, I know

Good grief, what needs to be done to make them realize its not all about trying to get to damned London or Penzance all the time? Maybe we could have a Cream Tea Hub somewhere for their convenience? A Cider Chord perhaps? Possibly someone with a funny accent can read out the announcements? :neutral:

Hear, hear.

130,000 people in Torbay and 80,000 people in the South Hams left with a fair weather railway whilst folk in Plymouth and Cornwall have the supposed joy of meandering sedately round Dartmoor, reversing once or twice, to get to points north and east of Exeter, every time there are issues along the sea wall.

No. Don't waste time and money rebuilding the 'Withered Arm', get planning and building a Dawlish avoiding line NOW!

Agreed - the needs of the large number of people on the (southern) coast come above the wishlist of a scenic meandering line through rural Devon.

Exactly.

Which means the diversion has to make a case on its own, plus the benefit it would give on the occasional (and possibly more frequent) closure of the existing route, planned or unplanned.

If the quoted £250m is found down the back of the HM Treasury sofa, it would be good to see the folk of Devon and Cornwall asked what they would most prefer to see it spent on to benefit the regional transport system and/or local economy.

Out of interest, what would "£250m" buy you on the Exeter - Basingstoke line? Reoubling? Electrification? Gold plated platforms?

Would it pay for electrification from Bristol to Plymouth?

Or electrification of the B&H from Reading to Exeter?

Just curious in terms of what alternatives could be found for the money.

It only has to happen once to make an alternative route stack up financially. The BBC article at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26078464

says

"The line was left dangling above the sea after ballast was washed away, costing £8m a day in lost business according to local firms"

That £8M a day adds up quickly.

Improved local economy comes hand in hand with improved transport systems.
It was quoted the other day that Cornwall will lose £20m in economy during the Dawlish line closure (based on 6 week projected closure)?

This is why I'm always suspicious of these quoted costs - £8m a day? £20m over six weeks (roughly £0.5m a day)? Its "think of a number" territory.

 

[yorksrob]

Hear, hear.

130,000 people in Torbay and 80,000 people in the South Hams left with a fair weather railway whilst folk in Plymouth and Cornwall have the supposed joy of meandering sedately round Dartmoor, reversing once or twice, to get to points north and east of Exeter, every time there are issues along the sea wall.

No. Don't waste time and money rebuilding the 'Withered Arm', get planning and building a Dawlish avoiding line NOW!

Conversely, I think a Dawlish avoiding line could end up worse for those living in Torbay as it would possibly sound the death knell for the line along the coast, which in turn would mean loss of the local stations and services, particularly if the wall gets breached too often. At least with Newton Abbott and Torquay depending on it, they're obliged to keep services along the coast.

 

[Buttsy]

To me it seems like the two options can be labelled as such:

1. Quick build, easy, cheap (Okehampton);
2. Slow build, awkward, expensive (Dawlish avoiding line).

In a perfect world we'd have both, but in order to retain connectivity, I can see 1 being built in the next 5-7 years and once everybody realises that Dawlish is going to be taken out every year, 2 will be done. If 2 is done, then I can see singling happening bewteen Teignmouth and Dawlish Warren as services not due to stop at Dawlish & Teignmouth will be divered via the new 100mph+ route.

 

[yorksrob]

Out of interest, what would "£250m" buy you on the Exeter - Basingstoke line? Reoubling? Electrification? Gold plated platforms?

Would it pay for electrification from Bristol to Plymouth?

Or electrification of the B&H from Reading to Exeter?

Just curious in terms of what alternatives could be found for the money.

All nice to have's, but realistically how much difference is it going to make to a regular rail traveller whether their train is electric or diesel. How much better is the Basingstoke - Exeter line service going to be with double track throughout than it is already. If you're going to spend "£250m" on something, you might as well get a real, tangible improvement rather than "gold plated platforms".

 

[MarkyT]

I've updated my original document previously linked in the second post of this topic. This now includes some track schematics showing singling between Dawlish Warren and Teignmouth, and changes around Newton Abbot to accommodate the new route joining the existing main line via the Heathfield branch alignment.

http://www.townend.me/files/southdevon.pdf

 

[HowardGWR]

All nice to have's, but realistically how much difference is it going to make to a regular rail traveller whether their train is electric or diesel. How much better is the Basingstoke - Exeter line service going to be with double track than it is already. If you're going to spend "£250m" on something, you might as well get a real, tangible improvement rather than "gold plated platforms".

I didn't know they had singled from Basingstoke to Exeter? I think you meant Salisbury, not Basingstoke.

 

[yorksrob]

I didn't know they had singled from Basingstoke to Exeter? I think you meant Salisbury, not Basingstoke.

Amended for you

 

[HowardGWR]

I've updated my original document previously linked in the second post of this topic. This now includes some track schematics showing singling between Dawlish Warren and Teignmouth, and changes around Newton Abbot to accommodate the new route joining the existing main line via the Heathfield branch alignment.

http://www.townend.me/files/southdevon.pdf

Demon work with the crayon there, Mark. If the gradient each side were lessened, at the expense of the slightly longer central tunnel, would not quite a few viaducts be avoided?

 

[swt_passenger]

According to railnews, quoting NR, the BBC story about the Okehampton route being 'chosen' is completely premature.

NETWORK RAIL has denied reports that it has chosen another rail route through Devon, avoiding the vulnerable coastal stretch through Dawlish.

Damage to the Great Western Main Line caused by storms in south Devon will take some time to repair. Network Rail now says the link is unlikely to be restored beforre April, and the number of flights between London and Cornwall will be doubled from tomorrow.

But the company has denied a BBC report which claimed that the former Southern main line through Dartmoor via Okehampton and Tavistock had been selected for reopening, providing an inland alternative between Exeter and Plymouth.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2014/02/11-network-rail-denies-dawlish-plan.html

 

[The Ham]

Agreed - the needs of the large number of people on the (southern) coast come above the wishlist of a scenic meandering line through rural Devon.

Although I agree with you, no one is saying that the coastal route would be replaced by the route through Oakhampton (other than when the coastal route was closed for maintenance or due to storms)

Out of interest, what would "£250m" buy you on the Exeter - Basingstoke line? Redoubling? Electrification? Gold plated platforms?

Would it pay for electrification from Bristol to Plymouth?

Or electrification of the B&H from Reading to Exeter?

Just curious in terms of what alternatives could be found for the money.

There is no reason why if £250m was spent reopening the line through Oakhampton to allow Exeter to Plymouth services that the above projects would also not be able to go ahead (other than the need to potentially have to electrify the reopened route as well if it were an extenssion of SWT's services to Exeter and other than gold plated platforms would just loose their shine after a while!).

In fact, as I've hinted at before, if SWT ran the services as an extension to their Exeter-Waterloo services there may be enough people going to Plymouth from along their rail corridor to justify a regular (i.e. hourly) service, which may make some of the above more likely to happen - not less likely.

For example, if SWT's runs the service then it could be argued to enable them to have enough DMU's to run the service without ordering more, that the line from Basingstoke to Yeovil is electrified so that the other service in the hour (e.g. Yeovil or Salisbury to Waterloo) is run by EMU. This could then also result in a few of SWT's DMU's being possibly freed up for other TOC's.

In simple terms it may require, 8 x 159's to run 6 coaches hourly in each direction assuming the service takes 4 hours to run the return trip between Exeter and Plymouth then back again. Whilst the halving of the existing SWT's class 159 fleet (due to it being replaced because of electrification) would free up 15 sets, leaving up to 7 sets free for them to strengthen existing services and/or for other TOC's to use.

 

[transmanche]

In fact, as I've hinted at before, if SWT ran the services as an extension to their Exeter-Waterloo services there may be enough people going to Plymouth from along their rail corridor to justify a regular (i.e. hourly) service, which may make some of the above more likely to happen - not less likely.

SWT used to run services to Plymouth (and on to Penzance?) as an extension of the Waterloo-Exeter service didn't they? What was the reason for scrapping that service? Lack of customers? Lack of units? Lack of line capacity? Or just being told to by the DfT?

I guess the first thing to be done would be to tackle (and eliminate) whatever issue that caused the services to be scrapped in the first place.