Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[gshevlin]

For folks wondering about the condition of Meldon Viaduct...this pic shows the load restriction on the viaduct in 1984 http://goo.gl/1oDiZB

 

[47802]

You know that as soon as this line is closed for an overnight possession, there would be people trying to justify either reopening an inland route or a Oakhampton - Tavistock Shinkansen (as well as an excuse for a "Plymouth v Exeter" argument).

If we take the argument that we can't possibly have a link between two big places that doesn't have a diversionary alternative then there are plenty of other places that have no real alternative (why aren't we arguing for a diversionary route from Newport to Cardiff or a diversionary route from York to Thirsk? If either of those lines were to be put out of action for a long time then the alternative routes are so longwinded that we'd be looking at replacement buses)

No but York to Thirsk isn't next to the sea is it?, and Devon and Cornwall are fairly heavily dependent on Tourism, and significant number still travel by train.

I can see why the south west would be cheesed off given the money spent to be spent on HS2 and IEP while the South West doesn't even have a HST replacement yet, perhaps few hundred million might not seem unreasonable for an alternate route etc.

 

[Batman]

Just out of interest, are there still trains running between Plymouth and Penzance and on the Cornish branch lines? Or is that not possible because of refuelling/maintenance issues?

 

[47802]

Just out of interest, are there still trains running between Plymouth and Penzance and on the Cornish branch lines? Or is that not possible because of refuelling/maintenance issues?

If you look at First Great Western's website you will see that a normal service is being run with a couple of exceptions between Plymouth and Penzance and the Cornish branches.

 

[yorksrob]

York to Thirsk

Sorry tbtc, but how on earth is York to Thirsk remotely in a month of Sundays comparable to the "rest of the United Kingdom" to Plymouth and the whole of Cornwall. York to Edinburgh has a diversionary route, as does York to London and York to Manchester. A policy of not having diversionary routes between major centers has been shown, time and time again to be nonsense.

Even Wales, if things were really against the wall, you could send something via Shrewsbury.

 

[Llanigraham]

Which is one of the reasons the Heart of Wales line is kept open!

 

[Andyjs247]

Woud Plymouth really have a dual 3 lane motorway even if the terrain allowed it? The traffic counts I posted earlier show a clear drop in traffic west of Exeter so I'm not sure there would be justification for a dual 3 lane motorway to Plymouth. Hull has a similar population to Plymouth and also doesn't have a motorway (the M62 ends about 15 miles short).

They're not both dual carriageway in Cornwall, though. The A30 is indeed dual carriageway at Bodmin (although it isn't at Temple, but that's on its way to being rectified), the A38 definitely isn't apart from short sections e.g. the Dobwalls bypass.

The A30 is considered the superior road by far, but unfortunately it's still not dual carriageway from end to end, as it should be.

Also it's only in the last 20 years or so that the A30 has been considered the superior road. The A30 has had more recent investment than the A38 which was upgraded earlier. Its not surprising therefore that the A38 sees less traffic than the M5; most traffic heading for Cornwall will probably take the A30 nowadays. I'd suggest most traffic on the M5 continues beyond Exeter on either the A30 (for Cornwall) or A38/A380 for Plymouth / Torbay. I'm not at all surprised that the traffic count on the A38 is much lower than the M5, but it doesn't mean that all traffic ends up in Exeter!

Once upon a time the A38 would have been the road of choice for Cornwall as well. That situation is not too dissimilar on the railway - via Dawlish is the only option heading west of Exeter for Plymouth, Torbay and Cornwall. There is no 'Plan B'. It's quite clear that the railway needs a Plan B - which in the medium term would be to reopen the ex-LSWR route via Okehampton - Tavistock - Bere Alston.

Longer term the goal should be an alternative inland mainline route to link Exeter and Newton Abbott, tunnelled if necessary.

The coastal route via Dawlish would also remain but diminished in importance - not maintaining the sea wall is not an option so you may as well keep the line for local services. With population growth and climate change I can see that all the above will be needed; I don't see it as an either or choice.

 

[jamesr]

Let's be honest, there's not a chance in a month of Sundays of any of the alternative routes being opened in exchange for Dawlish without a major nationwide decision to invest in regional rail. The Okehampton - Tavistock link is wonderful in theory, but in reality, it's 16-odd miles of new rail (even if Tavistock is built), and if 16 miles of new rail were paid for to be built in the Westcountry, there are other more useful year-round candidates.

The rail connection to the South West is woefully slow west of Exeter, and most of the reliability issues are east of Exeter. Okehampton to Tavistock solves neither.

A month after Dawlish reopens, it'll all be forgotten again. It might happen again next year, it might happen again in 20 years. But the risk/return factor comes nowhere near warranting rebuilding a line slower than the existing line, or a new "direct" Exeter - Newton Abbot line through a tunnel the length of the channel tunnel.

What South Devon and Cornwall desperately needs is rolling stock which tilts in such a way that it cuts significant time of the journey west of Exeter, and a back up plan that means passengers can actually rely on the line to get them where they need to go. FGW's planned engineering works are well organised - but there's such a regular need for coach replacements, it's time they bought their own. As I said upthread, this could usefully be used on normal weekdays to provide an express coach from Exeter to points west.

 

[yorksrob]

Frankly, if the need for blockades is as regular as you say, then that just illustrates the need for a diversionary route even more clearly.

This would be an excellent opportunity for governments of all shades to show that they are serious about the National network as a whole and that after sixty years they finally understand its importance to the country as a whole.

 

[PhilipW]

No need to build anything new.

There is an easy alternative route already available.

Well, it made me smile

 

[tbtc]

No but York to Thirsk isn't next to the sea is it?, and Devon and Cornwall are fairly heavily dependent on Tourism, and significant number still travel by train

Did I mention the sea?

There are plenty of reasons why routes are closed for periods of time - e.g. a tunnel collapsing like Grantshouse (where there's no simple diversionary route from Newcastle/ Berwick to Edinburgh).

Other parts of the country get tourists too.

I can see why the south west would be cheesed off given the money spent to be spent on HS2 and IEP while the South West doesn't even have a HST replacement yet, perhaps few hundred million might not seem unreasonable for an alternate route etc.

If there's justification for a new route in the south west then it should be justified on its own merits, not because of some token pacification because HS2 isn't going to Penzance.

Diversionary routes are a fairly weak justification.

Sorry tbtc, but how on earth is York to Thirsk remotely in a month of Sundays comparable to the "rest of the United Kingdom" to Plymouth and the whole of Cornwall

York to Thirsk is an example of a key main line that has no diversionary alternative (yes, you could go York - Leeds - Carlisle - Newcastle - Thirsk, if you needed to swap stock about but if anything happened to the York - Thirsk line then we'd be looking at replacement buses).

York to Edinburgh has a diversionary route, as does York to London and York to Manchester

If the York to Thirsk line was closed, we'd all be put on buses for the duration, lets face it.

How are York to London and York to Manchester affected by closure of the line from York to Thirsk though?

A policy of not having diversionary routes between major centers has been shown, time and time again to be nonsense.

But as I'm trying to point out, there are plenty of routes with no realistic diversionary alternative - nothing unique about the Dawlish route in that respect. I know you want to find reasons to justify bringing back an old route, but it needs to stand on its own two feet.

 

[Goatboy]

Frankly, if the need for blockades is as regular as you say, then that just illustrates the need for a diversionary route even more clearly.

No it doesn't because the vast majority of the RRB's over the last few years have been used for obstructions NORTH of Exeter (Whiteball, Cowely Bridge x 2, etc).

Gonna build a diversion route around that as well?

 

[Bald Rick]

(why aren't we arguing for a diversionary route from Newport to Cardiff or a diversionary route from York to Thirsk?)

Or Brighton to London?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I sensed I may agree with tbtc in this lets no just spend 250 million on a new route. Yes that is the cost. Not 100 million.

It closes no more often than many other major routes and as people say the major closure last year would not be helped at all by the diversion. Interesting to suggest a tidal lagoon, potentially interesting but more environmental damage, a breakwater can have environmental benefits. This while slightly more costly than a diversion has far far more benefits. It protects the railway and the towns the second be very important.

 

[yorksrob]

In response to tcbc:

York to Thirsk is an interesting example. Much of it is quadrouple track, which of course makes it much easier to plan engineering works without full closure. This, I understand, was one of the (IMO exaggerated) justifications for the closure of it's own diversionary route via Rippon.

In terms of disruption, it is true that the dreaded replacement buses often put in an appearance, but as somone who travels on InterCity services quite often at weekends, I know that TOC's on other routes will often allow holders of other tickets to travel on their trains.

I believe it is fairly unique to have an economic area encompassing a city such as Plymouth and the whole of Cornwall without an alternative.

Given the other arguments around tourism in Dartmoor, congestion in Tavistock, economic regeneration in the Okehampton area, it seems that the anti-reopening brigade are desperately clutching at straws to come up with reasons not to reopen this route.

 

[Jonny]

I would have thought that because this line runs for several miles along the coast between Exeter and Newton Abbot that a diversionary route would have been built by now. Every year or so this route suffers some degree of bad weather which results in the line having to shut. They should have known this years ago and its not exactly rocket science to know that having a train line running on the beach will cause problems.

Because then they can't blame "man-made" global warming / climate change etc. for the resultant disruption.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

The sea wall at Dawlish has to be rebuilt anyway, and the railway reinstated.
After that Cowley Bridge should have a high priority.

LSWR route should be reopened anyway, and Dawlish adding a little more weight to the case. Express buses should link Launceston, Bude, Holsworthy etc.
Imo
An inland Dawlish diversion needs serious consideration, the route should be planned, and built within 20 years. The main consideration to speed up the service. A Parkway station could be incorporated with good A38 connections.
Part of the Dawlish route would probably then be single track. They should still have some long distance services. Popular also for those who wish to enjoy the view!

 

[yorksrob]

No it doesn't because the vast majority of the RRB's over the last few years have been used for obstructions NORTH of Exeter (Whiteball, Cowely Bridge x 2, etc).

Gonna build a diversion route around that as well?

There‘s already an alternative route to the lines North of Exeter which is used quite frequently by diverted trains. It goes through Yeovil and Salisbury.

 

[Woody]

For those interested in the GWR 193os planned Dawlish Avoiding Line (DAL) see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawlish_Avoiding_Line

Maybe it time to dust off those plans. As a FGW train manager said to me in Exeter yesterday we havent got to blast our way through hills these days using armies of workers to brick up tunnels because today we have high tech tunnel boring machines to do the job. If we can build the channel tunnel/HS1/HS2 and London’s Cross rail tunnels then a two mile tunnel through the Halden hills shouldn’t be that difficult, IF the money and just as importantly the political will are there.

 

[Tobbes]

Firstly, let's hope that there isn't significantly more damage over the next day or so as the current storm moves through.

But the Okehampton - Tavistock case - along with improvements to the whole route has been immeasurably strengthened in the last week; there is clearly a need for a diversionary route for damage to Dawlish (no-one expects less extreme weather as the climate changes), but also because the network effect of having near guaranteed access to Plymouth and Cornwall during engineering and whatnot. That a reopened modernised LSWR line will also provide significantly enhanced journey options to northern Devon is almost a bonus.

Given the politics (several LibDem and Conservative marginals in the area), I'd expect this to be announced this year, and implemented before the end in the next Parliament.

Tobbes

 

[tbtc]

Given the other arguments around tourism in Dartmoor, congestion in Tavistock, economic regeneration in the Okehampton area, it seems that the anti-reopening brigade are desperately clutching at straws to come up with reasons not to reopen this route.

There are plenty of routes in the UK that run by the sea

There are plenty of routes in the UK that have no realistic parallel route for diversions

There are plenty of routes in the UK that have been closed for periods over the last few years

There's nothing unique about the Dawlish line in this respect.

I'm all for re-opening lines that have a decent business case (or, y'know, opening brand new alignments that aren't necessarily following the trackbed of something built 150 years ago), but...

...an "inland" route through Devon should be assessed alongside other proposed new routes/ infrastructure spending (is it more of a priority than Bristol to Portishead? is it more of a priority than electrifying from Bristol to Weston once the wires reach Temple Meads? is it more of a priority than re-doubling the Exeter - Salisbury line) - not just a blanket assumption that we must reopen every old line.

 

[yorksrob]

With the exception of Portishead, all of your other examples are existing routes that already provide a decent service. None of these would provide anything like the improvement that reopening the mid Devon route would bring because what is there at the moment is already pretty decent.


The Secretary of State should do what he did with HS2 and bypass the flawed and discredited methidology of existing cost benefit analysis which has frequently underestimated passenger usage of new rail and connectivity benefits.

 

[47802]

There are plenty of routes in the UK that run by the sea

There are plenty of routes in the UK that have no realistic parallel route for diversions

There are plenty of routes in the UK that have been closed for periods over the last few years

There's nothing unique about the Dawlish line in this respect.

I'm all for re-opening lines that have a decent business case (or, y'know, opening brand new alignments that aren't necessarily following the trackbed of something built 150 years ago), but...

...an "inland" route through Devon should be assessed alongside other proposed new routes/ infrastructure spending (is it more of a priority than Bristol to Portishead? is it more of a priority than electrifying from Bristol to Weston once the wires reach Temple Meads? is it more of a priority than re-doubling the Exeter - Salisbury line) - not just a blanket assumption that we must reopen every old line.

Is anybody making a blanket assumption about reopening any old line I think not. You talk about other lines near the sea and yes of course there are and at some point in the future we may have to make some decisions about those which might include closure without an alternate, but we would need to assess the impact, but in the case of Dawlish we are talking about a mainline which serves a significant area of the country, and possibly it could be to some degree a political decision rather than just a pure cost benefit analysis.

In the last 35 years we have moved the East Coast Route to get around Subsidence of the Selby coal field and a collapsing tunnel.

 

[itfcfan]

This was mentioned higher up the thread, but for anyone that's interested, the 1965 Western Region timetable on timetableworld.com shows journey times on the Exeter - Okehampton - Plymouth route.

There are only a few journeys that don't stop at all stations (apart from on Sundays when all journeys only stop at the main stations).

Westbound journey times are 1:40 (for example, depart Exeter St Davids 15:10, arrive Plymouth 16:50, with stops at Okehampton 15:43-15:45, Tavistock North 16:11, Bere Alston 16:25, Devonport 16:45). Eastbound journey times are 1:30 (for example, depart Plymouth 10:55, arrive Exeter St Davids 12:25, with stops at Devonport 11:00, not stopping at Bere Alston, Tavistock North 11:25, Okehampton 11:52-11:54).

These journey times are better than the Southern Region timetable of 1950.

Based on this, the best 1965 timings give a journey time of 90mins versus around 60mins for the route via Newton Abbot today.

The total distance (based on the 1950 timetable) is 58 miles for the route via Okehampton vs 52 miles for the route via route via Newton Abbot (at least according to Wikipedia's route chart).

For reference, this is the mile numbers I have on the Okehampton route:
Exeter St Davids 172.5
Yeoford 183
Okehampton 197.5
Lydford 207.25
Tavistock 213.75
Bere Alston 220.25
Plymouth 230.5

 

[LateThanNever]

There are plenty of routes in the UK that run by the sea

There are plenty of routes in the UK that have no realistic parallel route for diversions

There are plenty of routes in the UK that have been closed for periods over the last few years

There's nothing unique about the Dawlish line in this respect.

I'm all for re-opening lines that have a decent business case (or, y'know, opening brand new alignments that aren't necessarily following the trackbed of something built 150 years ago), but...

...an "inland" route through Devon should be assessed alongside other proposed new routes/ infrastructure spending (is it more of a priority than Bristol to Portishead? is it more of a priority than electrifying from Bristol to Weston once the wires reach Temple Meads? is it more of a priority than re-doubling the Exeter - Salisbury line) - not just a blanket assumption that we must reopen every old line.

Suggest that there has been no recent breach to any coastal railway line on such a grand scale and none that cuts off about half a million people from the rest of the UK.
On the basis of the greatest happiness of the greatest number, opening up an old route looks attractive firstly on cost grounds and second because it would also give better and nearer railway connections to North Devon and Cornwall as well as Okehampton. Diverting the current line a bit inland from Dawlish and Teignmouth is unlikely to be popular locally and as most of the avoiding line would probably need to be in tunnels is likely to be more expensive per mile than the Okehampton route, and you have also solved only the coastal problem. The Okehampton route has the advantage that it would solve the problem whilst also improving connectivity and providing traffic relief to the South Western approach to Exeter, which is mostly jammed, and according to the Council is generally the busiest road route into Exeter.
There is also the small matter of a new station at Marsh Barton which I believe is already in the budget and due to open next year? Most of the passengers have been surveyed as coming from TQ postcodes so any solution going direct from Exeter to Plymouth would probably not involve complete closure of the coastal route.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

The Secretary of State should do what he did with HS2 and bypass the flawed and discredited methidology of existing cost benefit analysis which has frequently underestimated passenger usage of new rail and connectivity benefits.

That I agree with, I would like to see the new methodology used for HS2 used to assess reopening other closed rail routes across the country, I wonder if could make some re-openings viable?

Also there is a political calculation for the Secretary of State to make, many West Country MP's are unhappy with the amount of spending on HS2 whist Devon and Cornwall are getting next it nothing in terms of rail spending, some are even threatening to vote against HS2. Reopening Okehampton - Tavistock would cost £250 Million or approximately 2% of HS2 £14 billion contingency fund.

 

[455driver]

A very good point but it must be very doubtful that the houses were there before the railway-

There was a very large house there before the railway and the owner insisted on the lowering so any walkers wouldnt be able to see into his house. That house was subsequantly demolished and the houses built in its place.

I wonder if part of the long term sollution is to build the lower part up to match the rest of the wall?

 

[LateThanNever]

There was a very large house there before the railway and the owner insisted on the lowering so any walkers wouldnt be able to see into his house. That house was subsequantly demolished and the houses built in its place.

I wonder if part of the long term sollution is to build the lower part up to match the rest of the wall?

Snobby git. Or - if it gets us a new railway - excellent fellow!

Think you're right about the new wall - the higher wall held although they mostly also had reinforcement at sea level where as the lower part didn't ...

 

[YorkshireBear]

I note exeter is cut off completely now. Which 50s railway lone will solve that!

 

[Zoe]

I note exeter is cut off completely now.

As is Taunton. A Dawlish bypass isn't going to help with either of these.