Sunday trading laws discussion

[BingMan]

How exactly does it affect you?

Sixty years ago I enjoyed cycling on virtually traffic free roads on a Sunday.
Not some thing that I can do today.

 

[RT4038]

Sixty years ago I enjoyed cycling on virtually traffic free roads on a Sunday.
Not some thing that I can do today.

There may be factors other than Sunday trading that have also caused that though.

 

[Metrolink]

Sunday trading laws should be removed so that Saturday isn't the ONLY day where weekday workers have to do everything not possible during the week. I also think it's safe to say Sunday is not a religious day anymore (especially as a nation). If you want to treat it like a day of rest or leisure, that's your choice, but for most it could be more useful IMO.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Sunday trading laws should be removed so that Saturday isn't the ONLY day where weekday workers have to do everything not possible during the week. I also think it's safe to say Sunday is not a religious day anymore (especially as a nation). If you want to treat it like a day of rest or leisure, that's your choice, but for most it could be more useful IMO.

You do know that many supermarkets are open until late or even 24 hours during the week? When I had an office job even allowing for a commute I managed to do a weekly shop one evening thereby keeping my weekends clear for other activities. And when on shifts the 24 hour opening came in handy from time to time. Perhaps you could plan your "essential but tedious" activities a little more efficiently.

 

[Cross City]

You do know that many supermarkets are open until late or even 24 hours during the week? When I had an office job even allowing for a commute I managed to do a weekly shop one evening thereby keeping my weekends clear for other activities. And when on shifts the 24 hour opening came in handy from time to time. Perhaps you could plan your "essential but tedious" activities a little more efficiently.

Or you can open the shops and let people do what they like.

 

[jon0844]

Shopping habits have clearly changed, and people don't appear to be out super late to shop, or drink/eat, thus places are closing earlier.

If a supermarket wants to open longer, it has to pay for more staff. It has to determine if opening longer means more sales to pay for that, or whether the sales remain the same but spread out over a longer time. If the latter, why are you opening longer?

There seems to be no desire to go back to opening Tesco stores overnight, and pubs and bars seem to be back to closing at normal times. The cost of drinking out may likely play a part in this.. who can afford to stay out from 7 or 8pm until 2am?

I am sure if the retail and hospitality sectors were begging for longer opening hours to make more money, they'd be lobbying all day long. I suspect they're already aware that opening longer probably wouldn't bring them more money. Meanwhile the family run corner shop can open if it wants, so it seems like we are just fine as we are.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Or you can open the shops and let people do what they like.

So weekday daytime/evening/overnight is no use to you. And neither is Sunday daytime. Does that mean that Sunday evening is the only time you find convenient to go grocery shopping? You do realise that would put you in a very small niche market.

 

[Metrolink]

Perhaps you could plan your "essential but tedious" activities a little more efficiently.

The irony within this statement is outstanding. I’m not a 9-5 weekday worker. I work in retail with quite flexible hours (including Sunday), and i’m not complaining that my job stops me from doing things in the week because it doesn’t.

I don’t see the unneccessary need to keep larger shops closed when it improves accessibility around many different schedules.

Shopping habits have clearly changed, and people don't appear to be out super late to shop, or drink/eat, thus places are closing earlier.

If a supermarket wants to open longer, it has to pay for more staff. It has to determine if opening longer means more sales to pay for that, or whether the sales remain the same but spread out over a longer time. If the latter, why are you opening longer?

There seems to be no desire to go back to opening Tesco stores overnight, and pubs and bars seem to be back to closing at normal times. The cost of drinking out may likely play a part in this.. who can afford to stay out from 7 or 8pm until 2am?

I am sure if the retail and hospitality sectors were begging for longer opening hours to make more money, they'd be lobbying all day long. I suspect they're already aware that opening longer probably wouldn't bring them more money. Meanwhile the family run corner shop can open if it wants, so it seems like we are just fine as we are.

The cost of keeping a retail store open in towns and cities to open for 10 hours on Sunday instead of 6 hours is covered by the revenue. Admittedly, it is dependent on location (and should be) but the Sunday Trading Laws directly prohibit the companies freedom to choose whether they should be open based on their market/customer base.

 

[jon0844]

So retailers have done the research to show they'd definitely get additional revenue and not simply take it from another day/time?

That's perfectly possible for some retailers but I'm not convinced it would apply for all.

 

[Metrolink]

So retailers have done the research to show they'd definitely get additional revenue and not simply take it from another day/time?

That's perfectly possible for some retailers but I'm not convinced it would apply for all.

Yeah that’s precisely what I’m saying. I work in a large shopping centre that could stay open for a longer period. I’m not saying that every retail store should be open longer on Sunday, but that Sunday Trading Laws can be, and some times are a limiting factor.

 

[GB]

You do know that many supermarkets are open until late or even 24 hours during the week?

Stores that are open 24hrs are getting less and less. My local Tesco stopped some years ago and the local ASDA stopped being 24hrs just last week.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sixty years ago I enjoyed cycling on virtually traffic free roads on a Sunday.
Not some thing that I can do today.

Are there more or fewer cars around in general now than there were in 1965?

 

[jon0844]

Yeah that’s precisely what I’m saying. I work in a large shopping centre that could stay open for a longer period. I’m not saying that every retail store should be open longer on Sunday, but that Sunday Trading Laws can be, and some times are a limiting factor.

Can I ask how they did the research to establish that being open longer would generate extra business and not just shift it? And what types of retailers were/are they?

The thinking with supermarkets is perhaps a lot different to, say, a DIY store that loses sales if it can't be open extra early on a Sunday when someone wants to do some home improvement work - but opening earlier would mean losing sales later on.

Or maybe click and collect sales go down because there aren't enough slots.

I'm genuinely interested.

 

[BingMan]

Are there more or fewer cars around in general now than there were in 1965?

Lots more of course. But not enough to account for the massive increase in traffic density on Sundays

 

[sor]

I'm not sure there's much merit in the argument about how it may not be profitable to be open, so there's no reason to change the law. I see that as a reason to deregulate. If a retailer thinks its profitable then they get the choice to do so, if not then they don't bother, just like the rest of the week where (as it has been mentioned) many supermarkets no longer open 24 hours a day.

Corner stores aren't protected anymore because every supermarket has its own convenience store chain. Online shopping (including supermarkets), particularly those with same-day deliveries, mean that people are shopping anyway. And the religious argument should never have held sway in 1994 much less now - eg why is it solely Christians who deserve the "protection" - should we restrict Saturday trading hours for the benefit of Jews that observe the sabbath?

Scotland seems to manage with unrestricted trading so why can't E&W?

 

[Cross City]

So weekday daytime/evening/overnight is no use to you. And neither is Sunday daytime. Does that mean that Sunday evening is the only time you find convenient to go grocery shopping? You do realise that would put you in a very small niche market.

Not me personally but for someone yes.

More choice is always better.

 

[hexagon789]

Scotland seems to manage with unrestricted trading so why can't E&W?

Certainly up here, I would say Sundays are as busy if not busier than Saturdays.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

More choice is always better.

That seems more like a free-marketeer's favourite soundbite than a reasoned argument. Even with the competition from on-line shopping the supermarket chains continue to report good profits yet seem to want ever more. I would have more sympathy if they paid their front-line staff better especially for anti-social hours. Instead they seek to continually reduce staffing levels. As far as public demands go the main concern has been the reduction in staffed checkouts with customers being pushed into using self-checkouts especially late evenings/overnight. At least public pressure has forced supermarkets to row back some on this policy. That's a genuine choice that customers actually want.

Even longer opening hours will likely happen eventually but it should be due to demands from the public, not the businesses themselves. We already have too much soft oligarchy in this country.

 

[jon0844]

Tesco seems happy to have 6 staff covering 25+ self checkouts. Given the number of users needing age checks, rescans and general assistance it must be awful. And apparently those 6 must also cope with some being on break at any given time during the day, so in reality that's less than 6 for a lot of the time.

And it will only get worse because they are still actively avoiding recruitment and just making existing staff take up the extra workload, including being asked to change hours without the necessary three week notice. Presumably this is because local managers will imply that if they refuse their job might be at risk.

I can only imagine the same is happening at the other supermarkets and I wonder if all of them will axe the Sunday uplift payments now Tesco has.

 

[Metrolink]

Can I ask how they did the research to establish that being open longer would generate extra business and not just shift it? And what types of retailers were/are they?

The thinking with supermarkets is perhaps a lot different to, say, a DIY store that loses sales if it can't be open extra early on a Sunday when someone wants to do some home improvement work - but opening earlier would mean losing sales later on.

Or maybe click and collect sales go down because there aren't enough slots.

I'm genuinely interested.

Yeah so this one was purely based on my experience. Regional managers / Store managers in my company often talk about how they would be open for longer if they could be, some of this is defined by centre management but overall it is defined by trading laws regardless.

I do work in a large shopping centre and often there is a large demand, as people are still within the centre 1-1.5 hours after closing time with bars and restaurants not being subject to Sunday Trading Laws and therefore still supplying some level of demand. Therefore I’m not really talking about opening everything for longer when it’s not really feasible, as obviously there’s no point, but there should be some level of freedom to dictate based on location and not what is an archaic law IMO.

Also to answer your question my company is low order non-food goods, and my experience doesn’t necessarily carry over to every situation e.g supermarkets or other retail stores.

 

[geoffk]

Public transport providers in the UK still seem to treat Sunday as a "day of rest". Sunday working on the railway has been discussed here ad nauseam but bus services are also thin on the ground, despite the number of people out shopping and attending sporting etc. events. In contrast, European countries with very restricted Sunday opening (Germany and Austria have been mentioned, Switzerland is similar) generally run a 7-day timetable or at least a similar timetable on Saturday and Sunday.

 

[Hadders]

Another practical consideration is that Sunday evening is often the time of the week in large supermarkets that's used to carry out tasks that are difficult to do when the shop is open. For example:

Refrigeration heavy maintenance
Floor scrub and seal
Stocktaking etc

 

[GusB]

As someone who has worked in retail and other customer service jobs for most of my life, I appreciate when companies take the decision not to be open all hours. It can be particulary tricky for staff who don't have their own transport to get to work on Sundays when public transport doesn't start until much later in the day or, quite commonly, it's non-existent. When I was reliant on the bus to get me to work, I had to constantly remind my boss that I simply couldn't work before 2pm because it was impossible to get there for a morning start (she actually lived in the same village and was aware of the situation).

I don't have an aversion to shops opening on Sundays but those people who demand that they should be able to shop whenever they like should consider that some staff will have to organise a lift, spend a small fortune on taking a taxi or face a lengthy walk to get to work (and the same in reverse at the end of their shift). In those days I used to get paid double time for a Sunday, but even then if I had to take a taxi it would have wiped out any uplift in pay. These days, staff are contracted to work over 7 days and the extras for working at weekends are long gone; in some cases it will actually cost more to get to work and back than actual earnings.

I find it particularly galling when the 9-to-5 types crawl out of the woodwork and insist that all services must function on days when they're not working; is it not enough that supermarkets are open until late on the days that you do work?

Every year we have the usual threads about working over Christmas and New Year - this is no different. Some jobs are essential during these periods and we really cannot do without them; emergency services, those who work in the NHS and others who generally have to keep the country running.

If you want a genuine 24-hour society, that's fine. However, you need to be prepared to fund the transport to get people to and from work; it's not fair to expect low-paid people to pick up the tab because you can't be bothered doing your shopping at a more sociable hour!

 

[The Ham]

shops were habitually closed every Sunday (The Entertainer seems happy with this) then maybe we could debate, but six hours is quite a long time - and, as I said, smaller shops can legally open but likely are simply choosing not to.

The Entertainer was launched by Christians, which is why it doesn't open on Sundays - they've also opened stores but in the main shopping centres when their lease would have otherwise has required then to open on Sundays.

For them they have found that it works for them.

If you want a genuine 24-hour society, that's fine. However, you need to be prepared to fund the transport to get people to and from work; it's not fair to expect low-paid people to pick up the tab because you can't be bothered doing your shopping at a more sociable hour!

I do wonder if shops would be so keen to open longer hours if they had to contribute to staff travel costs outside of set hours/value (so would be more likely where there a bus service but less so if they had to pay taxi costs).

For example, staff (and this would be all staff) could claim the cost of non (personal) car travel beyond 45p a mile based on the cheapest option available for that time.

 

[jon0844]

When one of the largest supermarkets has given a not-so-impressive pay rise, but removing any extra Sunday pay, it suggests they wouldn't want to cover any increased expenses for staff to get to work on Sunday if the opening hours increased.

I don't know how their rostering works, but let's assume a supermarket relies on overtime like the railway, could we see supermarkets unable to open if and when staff simply decide working a Sunday isn't worth it?

Of course, we should be looking at why public transport can be so bad on a Sunday (not always trains, but very often buses). We have buses pretty much only because they serve a hospital and get a subsidy. In some places, Sunday gets a service where a Saturday does not - which is crazy, but down to the way things are set up.

 

[robbeech]

Certainly up here, I would say Sundays are as busy if not busier than Saturdays.

Certainly agree having just spend the last 2 weeks in Scotland.

Another practical consideration is that Sunday evening is often the time of the week in large supermarkets that's used to carry out tasks that are difficult to do when the shop is open. For example:

Refrigeration heavy maintenance
Floor scrub and seal
Stocktaking etc

I can relate this sort of use of closed time to something in my industry.

It turned out that in reality certain tasks being performed at a certain time were a result of usefulness rather than a necessity.

Do you consider it necessary to have that extended public free time to do some of those tasks listed or has it just been developed into the time it happens because that’s when it’s closed for longest?

For example if it suddenly opened 0700 to 2200 7 days would it not really be a problem to reschedule the tasks into the appropriate gaps?

Many theatre shows have Mondays off so bits of maintenance and the likes get done on the Monday, but then at times they bring Monday shows into the week, everything stills gets done, it just happens at other times.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I do work in a large shopping centre and often there is a large demand, as people are still within the centre 1-1.5 hours after closing time with bars and restaurants not being subject to Sunday Trading Laws and therefore still supplying some level of demand

I would be pretty confident that the overwhelming majority of those people fall into two groups:

- came there purely to eat

- came to shop during trading hours and stayed to eat afterwards

 

[jon0844]

I would be pretty confident that the overwhelming majority of those people fall into two groups:

- came there purely to eat

- came to shop during trading hours and stayed to eat afterwards

I've visited Westfield in Stratford loads of times and probably bought things on about three occasions (one being an Apple computer, the other being some toiletries or Secret-Santa gifts at Flying Tiger). We usually window shop, walk around the Olympic park and have a coffee/cake or maybe eat at the food court or a restaurant.

We're not big fans of fast fashion so don't really do Primark, which is incredibly popular. It's quite easy to see a lot of people walking around with no bags, suggesting a lot of other people aren't buying much either, but Primark is on a whole different level!

Obviously this is anecdotal. For one, we often go on a weekday evening and avoid Sunday (which can be extremely busy) so it's more likely people are there socially and to eat than shop, but if you look at any high street - including a Sunday - it's the cafes and restaurants that are busiest. I'm surprised more shops don't close entirely, like The Entertainer, when footfall is low.

 

[Metrolink]

I would be pretty confident that the overwhelming majority of those people fall into two groups:

- came there purely to eat

- came to shop during trading hours and stayed to eat afterwards

so it's more likely people are there socially and to eat than shop

I think that if people come to shop at centres socially rather based on necessity they should be open a bit longer to cater for different times, as the footfall isn’t concentrated in the same way that a supermarket is. That’s just my personal opinion though.

With Westfield, although I haven’t been, it is quite central to Stratford so I imagine it does become a place to eat as it is most likely an integral part of the area, though that is my assumption and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Hadders]

I can relate this sort of use of closed time to something in my industry.

It turned out that in reality certain tasks being performed at a certain time were a result of usefulness rather than a necessity.

Do you consider it necessary to have that extended public free time to do some of those tasks listed or has it just been developed into the time it happens because that’s when it’s closed for longest?

For example if it suddenly opened 0700 to 2200 7 days would it not really be a problem to reschedule the tasks into the appropriate gaps?

Many theatre shows have Mondays off so bits of maintenance and the likes get done on the Monday, but then at times they bring Monday shows into the week, everything stills gets done, it just happens at other times.

To be fair some of the task has developed into that time but it is extreely useful to have a longer close down on a Sunday evening. If that didn't exist then I could see a situatiuon where there might occasionally have to be early closures or late openings for 'engineering works'.