SWR Repaints and Refurbishments

[spark001uk]

So basically 31st Dec, with a possible 3 month extension if they can prove they've done all they can up to that point? Seems a tall order given the time they have left. Is this refresh obligation just internal, or relivery as well?

 

[theironroad]

As the franchise terms are being renegotiated anyway, I'm sure all the refurb issues and extra seats will be part of the renegotiation and timeframes allowed to slip or even scrapped. it's a whole new world......

 

[TEW]

Is there a 450 and 444 being worked on ?

Must be photos somewhere

First class relocated and a guards office converted can't be causing this much delay surely

I hear 2020 the revised refurbishment completion date

450113 and 444040. Been in Eastleigh since December 2017.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

450113 and 444040. Been in Eastleigh since December 2017.

That's a pretty long time to work on each train, also there's still many more to do yet. This is why I think the whole SWR fleet won't get done by 2024 with a "rogue" handful still remaining with the SWT livery.

If SWR really needs to speed up the refurbishment of 444s & 450s then they'd better get out the 442s into service temporarily soon!

As it was already pointed out that SWR are renegiotating then the refurbishment could be delayed or extended without pressure then the DfT may be lenient because of the negative reception that both the railway & DfT are getting with the strike action, fare increases, NR infrastructure woes, timetable fiasco, poor specs of new trains like 700s & 385s etc.

 

[59CosG95]

That's a pretty long time to work on each train, also there's still many more to do yet. This is why I think the whole SWR fleet won't get done by 2024 with a "rogue" handful still remaining with the SWT livery.

If SWR really needs to speed up the refurbishment of 444s & 450s then they'd better get out the 442s into service temporarily soon!

As it was already pointed out that SWR are renegiotating then the refurbishment could be delayed or extended without pressure then the DfT may be lenient because of the negative reception that both the railway & DfT are getting with the strike action, fare increases, NR infrastructure woes, timetable fiasco, poor specs of new trains like 700s & 385s etc.

It's worth pointing out that these two are the "guinea pigs" for the full refurbishment, and that subsequent refurbishments may well be quicker based on the experiences had with the first two.

 

[43096]

As it was already pointed out that SWR are renegiotating then the refurbishment could be delayed or extended without pressure then the DfT may be lenient because of the negative reception that both the railway & DfT are getting with the strike action, fare increases, NR infrastructure woes, timetable fiasco, poor specs of new trains like 700s & 385s etc.

Surely the negative press ought to mean SWR being held to their commitments for refurbishments rather than being let off. If SWR cannot hit the deadline there needs to be some sort of penalty, preferably one that hits WorstGroup in the pocket and benefits passengers.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

As an occasional user of first class, the longer the 2 + 1 lasts in the 444s and the soft seats in the 450s the better, likewise the exterior livery which looks reasonably smart compared to what is replacing it. Just a good clean inside and out would do fine, and as I have already witnessed feet on seats on refurbished stock it seems pointless spending what, according to Meridian news is £100K per coach. So I hope they continue to work at a snail's pace.

 

[ScottDarg]

444019 (the unit involved in the Bournemouth Sideswipe) is having its damaged driving motor coach repaired; Allely's are taking it from Wimbledon to Kilmarnock by road, while the other 4 coaches will remain at Wimbledon.
I'd hazard a guess that this will be one of the last 444s to go through refurb.

Should arrive at Kilmarnock today. A friend spotted it heading North on the M74 near Larkhall this morning

 

[spark001uk]

Tbh I was surprised they didn't fully refurb 444040 for the unveiling, all the VIPs saw was a shiny new livery let down by the same old tired interior.
Mind you, the sight of that 'half a job' (and several other units) has somewhat explained their performance so far.

 

[Goldfish62]

As an occasional user of first class, the longer the 2 + 1 lasts in the 444s and the soft seats in the 450s the better, likewise the exterior livery which looks reasonably smart compared to what is replacing it. Just a good clean inside and out would do fine, and as I have already witnessed feet on seats on refurbished stock it seems pointless spending what, according to Meridian news is £100K per coach. So I hope they continue to work at a snail's pace.

I think it was explained at the time thst this figure was quoted that the average per coach factors in the re-tractioning of the 442s.

 

[Domh245]

It's worth pointing out that these two are the "guinea pigs" for the full refurbishment, and that subsequent refurbishments may well be quicker based on the experiences had with the first two.

It'd be depressing if they were any slower! Seriously though, if it's taken over 8 months to do the prototypes for each, how much quicker can they do it?

Even assuming a 1/x style decay in terms of how quickly they improve the times by my reckoning you're looking at 2 and a half years just to do the 444s once they've released the next one (my quick model says that the last one would take 9 days to do - I don't think that's unreasonable for the scale of works being done. The 450s would be ~3.5 years after train 1 - the final train taking 3.5 days - again, not completely implausible seeing as it'll have had a lot of the work done anyway. The one thing that isn't accounted for, is doing multiple trains simultaneously, which will no doubt be done in real life, facilitated by the introduction of 442s and postponement of timetable changes, but it is still going to be a while before they're all done!

 

[Goldfish62]

As an occasional user of first class, the longer the 2 + 1 lasts in the 444s and the soft seats in the 450s the better, likewise the exterior livery which looks reasonably smart compared to what is replacing it. Just a good clean inside and out would do fine, and as I have already witnessed feet on seats on refurbished stock it seems pointless spending what, according to Meridian news is £100K per coach. So I hope they continue to work at a snail's pace.

The exterior livery on most units is extremely faded and has taken on a mat appearance which no amount of cleaning will improve. It just looks dull and scruffy. If anything repaints are well overdue.

I haven't sampled the first class seats, which don't look great, but the repadded standard class seats in the 450s are, for me, a vast improvement given that the cushions had collapsed with wear.

 

[theironroad]

Does anyone have a link or easy way to find the meridian report about the refurbs?

 

[43096]

I haven't sampled the first class seats, which don't look great, but the repadded standard class seats in the 450s are, for me, a vast improvement given that the cushions had collapsed with wear.

But the refurbished seats are a very poor second over the seats as originally fitted i.e. with new padding and SWT red moquette (not SWR's cheap flat cloth).

 

[Dougal2345]

The exterior livery on most units is extremely faded and has taken on a mat appearance which no amount of cleaning will improve. It just looks dull and scruffy. If anything repaints are well overdue.

I'd rather see a proper, tasteful livery that looks a bit scruffy than a dark stripey mess that's new and glossy

 

[Goldfish62]

I'd rather see a proper, tasteful livery that looks a bit scruffy than a dark stripey mess that's new and glossy

SWT livery tasteful?

 

[Goldfish62]

But the refurbished seats are a very poor second over the seats as originally fitted i.e. with new padding and SWT red moquette (not SWR's cheap flat cloth).

They seem fine to me.

 

[Western Sunset]

SWR just HAD to have an unit in their new livery for the (rather low key) franchise start last August, to appear "different" from SWT. Hence why 444040 appears in stock footage whenever items about SWR crop-up in the local (or national) press.

I can't see any way that all the Class 444s will be fully refurbished by the end of next March. No chance at all.

 

[Goldfish62]

SWR just HAD to have an unit in their new livery for the (rather low key) franchise start last August, to appear "different" from SWT. Hence why 444040 appears in stock footage whenever items about SWR crop-up in the local (or national) press.

I can't see any way that all the Class 444s will be fully refurbished by the end of next March. No chance at all.

At this rate I'm wondering if even one will be done by then.

 

[Western Sunset]

If they refurb two units a week (and I'm just talking about the Class 444s here), they'd only get 30 done by end of March.

I reckon two Class 444s a week is pretty optimistic too.....

 

[ginge8991]

Isn't there a 444 at broadies in Killie?

 

[TEW]

There is a driving coach of one unit, for collision repairs.

 

[TEW]

450013 now has a part refurbished interior.

 

[RichSwitch]

Assuming the changes in layout (First class, cubicle removal) on the 444/450 are still going ahead one wonders how easy these are to achieve. I’m thinking more of the removal of the conductor’s cubicle and ‘buffet’ cubicle. Are these just, for want of a better term, ‘plug and play’ or are they integral to the construction of the coach? If it’s the latter I would have thought this adds another complication to the refurbs. Not to mention more £££.
I’d imagine the 442s should be near enough ready by now - assuming they are actually using them and it wasn’t just a romantic notion. I don’t know if the LNWR 350s are being released any time soon, but if so would it not make sense for SWR to take these rather than the 442s? I’d imagine the 442s are cheaper to refurb perhaps?

 

[Flinn Reed]

Assuming the changes in layout (First class, cubicle removal) on the 444/450 are still going ahead one wonders how easy these are to achieve. I’m thinking more of the removal of the conductor’s cubicle and ‘buffet’ cubicle. Are these just, for want of a better term, ‘plug and play’ or are they integral to the construction of the coach? If it’s the latter I would have thought this adds another complication to the refurbs. Not to mention more £££.
I’d imagine the 442s should be near enough ready by now - assuming they are actually using them and it wasn’t just a romantic notion. I don’t know if the LNWR 350s are being released any time soon, but if so would it not make sense for SWR to take these rather than the 442s? I’d imagine the 442s are cheaper to refurb perhaps?

The 350/2s due to be withdrawn from LNWR have a similar seating layout to the 450s, as they are intended for metro-style services from London to Tring and around Birmingham.

The 442s have a more suitable layout for long distance services. However, the 350s could potentially be reconfigured to a similar layout to the 444s.

I think SWR should have taken the 350s instead to have a more common fleet. Then keep the 707s and order additional Desiro Citys instead of the Aventras (especially given some of the reliability issues with the 345s at TFL rail). And possibly even use TPE's 185s on the routes via Salisbury to replace some 158s/159s.

 

[The Ham]

And possibly even use TPE's 185s on the routes via Salisbury to replace some 158s/159s.

Cue lots of comments about the 185's having less seats, with those posting it forgetting that a train formed of more 185's that 159's would have more seats (i.e. a 2 unit 185 had more seats than a single 159).

 

[TEW]

Cue lots of comments about the 185's having less seats, with those posting it forgetting that a train formed of more 185's that 159's would have more seats (i.e. a 2 unit 185 had more seats than a single 159).

Not much good when most the peak services are formed of 8/9/10 coaches already, any 185 formation would be a drop in capacity.

 

[TEW]

I think SWR should have taken the 350s instead to have a more common fleet.

Remember that the WMT franchise was awarded after the SWR one, so 350s were likely not an option at the time SWR were putting their bid together. A key factor in the use of 442s that they were (meant to be) available quickly, to allow the uplift in capacity from December 2018. As it turns out, both the timetable change and the 442s are delayed.

 

[The Ham]

Not much good when most the peak services are formed of 8/9/10 coaches already, any 185 formation would be a drop in capacity.

Most peak hour services in the direction of peak flow are 9/10 coach trains. Going the other way (where the trains can still be very busy - try getting a train from Woking betten 17:30 and 18:30 and a LOT of the heading TOWARDS London week be very busy including a fair few with people standing) they can be just 3 coaches long (although many are 6 coaches).

There's also at least one, possibly more, of the diagrams which due to running out to Exeter appear to avoid both peaks. Run any such services as a 9 coach 185 and you free up more 159's to release more 158's to allow more 10 coach trains.

 

[TEW]

The 1447 Salisbury-Waterloo is booked 3-159 (1550 at Woking), and the 1747 Salisbury-Waterloo is booked 3-159 (1850 at Woking). Everything in between is booked at least 6 coaches, but most more.