Task force to speed up Norwich-London route

[Shimbleshanks]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-24860394
The Government has announced a task force to speed up journey times on the Norwch-Ipswich-Liverpool Street run

Taskforce to speed up rail travel in East of England

A taskforce is being set up to find ways to speed up rail services to the East of England by as much as 25%.

Chancellor George Osborne MP said he wanted the journey time from Norwich to London to be cut to 90 minutes and Ipswich to London to 60 minutes.

At present, it takes about two hours from Norwich and about one hour and 10 minutes from Ipswich.

The taskforce will be made up of Department for Transport officials, Network Rail experts and local MPs.

The main line service goes through Essex, Suffolk and Norfolk.

'Efficient rail services'

Mr Osborne, who addressed the city's chamber of commerce, welcomed the "Norwich in Ninety" campaign by MPs, councils and business leaders, to speed up links to London.....

 

[gordonthemoron]

close all the intermediary small stations, just leave Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester, Chelmsford. There, easy

 

[HSTEd]

My obligatory response:

Construct a Great Eastern Shinkansen that runs from King's Cross to Cambridge to Norwich, with a branch to Peterborough.

Done.

 

[LexyBoy]

Answer 1: Divert HS1 via Norwich.

Answer 2: People work on trains nowadays, so there's no need to go faster. In fact, it should be slowed down enough that people can do their entire day's work on the train, just getting off at Liverpool St to change back onto their train home. This would bring economic benefits of £62 bn from freeing up office space in London which could then be converted into Starbucks and Amazon warehouses with the consequent tax revenues going to bail out the newly-privatised NHS.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Answer 1: Divert HS1 via Norwich.

Answer 2: People work on trains nowadays, so there's no need to go faster. In fact, it should be slowed down enough that people can do their entire day's work on the train, just getting off at Liverpool St to change back onto their train home. This would bring economic benefits of £62 bn from freeing up office space in London which could then be converted into Starbucks and Amazon warehouses with the consequent tax revenues going to bail out the newly-privatised NHS.

Actually if you do #2, you could divert the money you've saved into #1...oh wait...!!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Seriously, they seem to want a 90-minute schedule.
The best time these days is 110 minutes with 4 stops on one half-hour, 117 on the other with 7 stops.
Where do they find 20 minutes on a 100mph line (some of it)?
The current trains will do 110mph of course, but I'm not sure how much of the route could be passed for that.
And if you get a 90-minute Norwich schedule, what does that do to journey times and capacity on other services?

 

[gordonthemoron]

since a lot of time seems to be spent getting into Liverpool St, perhaps they could terminate the trains further out and that'd reduce their journeytimes?

 

[jopsuk]

Expensive option: add two extra tracks, mainly on the same alignment but in some parts not, at least as far as Ipswich, with minimum 140mph line speed (higher better- go full High Speed?). Allows "local" services south of Ipswich the full use of the main line, allows Crossrail the full use of those tracks to Shenfield. Couple this with a regigged "metro" Crossrail 2 option that takes the Enfield, Chesunt, Hertford and Chingford services into a tunnel, that frees up all the platform space in Liverpool Street you could ever want (and possibly allows Stortford-Stratford services to run into Liverpool Street).

Whilst your at it, convert the entire GEML system (and the West Anglia Mainline fasts) to GC+.

 

[stut]

Create an HS4 that involves a massive great bridge over the Wash. Not only will it benefit Norwich, it will utterly regenerate Skegness.

 

[cle]

If they can't go via Thetford, it'll need to be a 125mph type scheme at least north of Ipswich. Is that doable?

South of Ipswich - ten minutes?! Who knows. Isn't the 17:00 train non-stop in 59 minutes now?

Might Romford need to lose its fasts to speed up the trains between Stratford and Shenfield?

 

[WatcherZero]

Step 1: Create a committee of MP's to investigate the matter
Step 2: Hold lots of taxpayer funded site visits, lunch meetings and catered confrences
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit

Or Alternately

Step 1: Create a committee of MP's to investigate the matter
Step 2: Hold lots of taxpayer funded site visits, lunch meetings and catered confrences
Step 3: Produce an unachievable aspirational timetable
Step 4: Hire lots of consultants to tell you it cant be done for a reasonable cost
Step 5: Quietly drop the idea

 

[yorksrob]

Expensive option: add two extra tracks, mainly on the same alignment but in some parts not, at least as far as Ipswich, with minimum 140mph line speed (higher better- go full High Speed?). Allows "local" services south of Ipswich the full use of the main line, allows Crossrail the full use of those tracks to Shenfield.

I seem to recall from a documentary of many years ago that the route has the shortest section of quadruple track out of London of any of the InterCity main lines, hence less opportunity to overtake stoppers (and hence it appearing in the documentary).

 

[Suraggu]

In My personal opinion, The Liverpool Street -Norwich LHCS services could be replaced by 5 Car 110mph EMU. Doubling the EMU's to create a 10 car in the peaks unless current service provision needs full Mk.3 sets throughout the day, then 10 car EMU's (Class 444 type) could be used.

You could then use the superior acceleration of a EMU to shave off a couple of minutes or so but I would of said without major investment aka line speed improvements, and avoiders, taking out station calls would be a way to shave off some more time.

 

[Starmill]

Step 1: Create a committee of MP's to investigate the matter
Step 2: Hold lots of taxpayer funded site visits, lunch meetings and catered confrences
Step 3: Produce an unachievable aspirational timetable
Step 4: Hire lots of consultants to tell you it cant be done for a reasonable cost
Step 5: Quietly drop the idea

And there we have it. Infrastructure projects in the UK? ^

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Few real options this side of Colchester (and volume of traffic) - crossings east of Ipswich - therefore not huge benefits , and like Holyhead (a fav on this forum - the further west you go - the numbers drop off..)

10 min journey saving maybe ?

I do like the idea of an East Anglia "Shinkansen" - extend also to Cromer and back round via the wilds to Kings Lynn !!!

 

[jopsuk]

I seem to recall from a documentary of many years ago that the route has the shortest section of quadruple track out of London of any of the InterCity main lines, hence less opportunity to overtake stoppers (and hence it appearing in the documentary).

Even without doing the maths, I can easily believe it- barely makes it out of the M25 (Shenfield). The ECML, apart from a blip at Welwyn, makes it to Huntingdon- if Digswell and the section south of Peterborough were brought up to 4-track it would be so to just south of Grantham. The Midland makes it somewhere north of Bedford. WCML goes to two-track routes just south of Northampton. GWML west of Didcot (though it's Reading if you're headed for Devon). Basingstoke for SWML...

 

[Class83]

Would there be a reduction in station dwell times if the Mark4 coaches were sent over when the ECML moves to IEP? Other than that, top and tail with 90s/91s to improve accelleration, order some EMUs to improve accelleration or probably expensive engineering to allow higher linespeeds.

It's still a lot faster than journeys such as Edinburgh-Aberdeen.

 

[HSTEd]

But yeah, more high speed lines in all directions!

And to keep people happy elsewhere, for every kilometre of High Speed rail route opened there must be a kilometre of branch line route reopened.

 

[Aictos]

I think the government want the impossible, I can't see how they will managed to deliver this without it impacting on other services - I don't see them quadrupling any section of the GEML which needs it, I fail to see how it won't impact badly on other services both freight and passenger etc...

There's simply too much too sort out, what about the various level crossings not to mention the freight and the majority of the line is only dual track plus the difference of speeds by the various services using the line.

 

[dk1]

Ten years is the planned timescale of this project. Trouble is it is such a busy route with not enough infrastructure, no easy diversionary alternatives & growing usage. Where to start?

 

[HSTEd]

This is why I think the only even halfway practical option is a new line. Via Cambridge wins in those stakes because a fairly cheap and easy branch to Peterborough solves Welwyn as well.

 

[deltic]

I thought Railway Eye summed this up brilliantly http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/gideon-signals-panic-in-tory-marginals.html

What on earth is the Chancellor and a load of MPs going to come up with that hasnt already been looked at by Network Rail and the Rail Utilisation Strategies - just another example of political spin

 

[tbtc]

Maybe I should take the puerile approach of anti-HS2 campaigners and say "how would spending millions on the Norwich line help people in Cornwall"?

The whole thing looks a pompous waste of time - a Task Force? Sounds a bit overblown for making a couple of suggestions about level crossings that could be closer and maybe eventually replacing the 90s with EMUs.

But I suppose Task Force sounds more macho and credible than a humble "feasibility study" or "focus group"

 

[YorkshireBear]

Doesn't need a task force, just ask Network Rail, DBS, GBRF, FL, GA what they think and give them some money to bloody do it.

 

[306024]

Good to see the picture in the Eastern Daily Press showing the chancellor boarding a standard class coach at Norwich.

A report has already been written which explains how a 90 minute journey time can be achieved by a combination of line speed improvements, suitable traction and reduced station dwell times, with the existing station stops of the fast schedule. Unfortunately it stopped short of explaining how this schedule could be pathed amongst all the other passenger and freight services on the GEML.

I recall speaking to one of the local MP's once who seemed surprised that freight ran during the day. No doubt he is signed up for the task force already.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I thought Railway Eye summed this up brilliantly http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/gideon-signals-panic-in-tory-marginals.html

What on earth is the Chancellor and a load of MPs going to come up with that hasnt already been looked at by Network Rail and the Rail Utilisation Strategies - just another example of political spin

Yes - absolutely brilliant.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Doesn't need a task force, just ask Network Rail, DBS, GBRF, FL, GA what they think and give them some money to bloody do it.

Part of it will be to address the "What did HS2 ever do for us" brigade.
Also, I think the DfT wants people to understand the hard questions of trade-offs to achieve a particular result.

 

[59CosG95]

Would there be a reduction in station dwell times if the Mark4 coaches were sent over when the ECML moves to IEP? Other than that, top and tail with 90s/91s to improve accelleration, order some EMUs to improve accelleration.

91s are faster than 90s, but take longer to get up to full speed. So it makes sense to retain the 90s ATM, but use Mk4 or Chilternised Mk3 coaches instead. Or of course, a "Class 344" would make perfect sense. Then the 360's could be modified into 350's for SWT-style outer-suburban services, with a few dedicated for intercity use.

 

[Bald Rick]

Part of it will be to address the "What did HS2 ever do for us" brigade.
Also, I think the DfT wants people to understand the hard questions of trade-offs to achieve a particular result.

To save 4 min north of Ipswich = Spend at least £100m or not stop at Diss.

Quite a trade off.

 

[JGR]

For me at least (a mainly weekend traveller between London and Ipswich), having trains which ran later into the evening/night would be far more useful than just getting there ten minutes faster.
I suspect it'd be easier to implement as well.