Tatty EPB better than Pendolino

[Mikerail63]

I use them all the time from Milton Keynes to Euston. I quite like them. Only 36 minutes and I usually get a seat. My one concern (sometimes) is whether the driver is going to stop or not. They do brake late!

 

[tbtc]

The Pendolini and the Voyagers were the only two types of stock where every seat doesn't line up with a window. Apparently. It must be true because I've read it so many times on here...

What I find amusing with the 390s is how the general hate for them seems to be changing now that people are faced with IEP - in the way that the beloved Mk3s were once "modern tat" but became much loved.

 

[ChristopherJ]

The Pendolini and the Voyagers were the only two types of stock where every seat doesn't line up with a window. Apparently. It must be true because I've read it so many times on here...

What I find amusing with the 390s is how the general hate for them seems to be changing now that people are faced with IEP - in the way that the beloved Mk3s were once "modern tat" but became much loved.

It's called nostalgia. It's a strange sentiment.

I was shocked at how many people ventured out in the early hours of the morning to see the Pendolino on the ECML. Ironic isn't it. Pendolino's up and down the WCML all day but move them just next door to the ECML and people flock from miles around to see one. Weird.

I have no problem with the tilt mechanism on a Pendolino.
I have no problem with the seating alignments on a Pendolino.
I have no problem with the seat density on a Pendolino.
I have no problem with the window size on a Pendolino.
I have no problem with the smaller body shell size of a Pendolino.

In fact, I have with no problems with the Pendolino, at all.

I genuinely believe that most people who curse the Pendolino are just nit-picking purely because we live in a free country, they're on a public forum and their human rights enable them to complain. Do these people really believe, in all honesty to the holy lord god, that when the consortium of Virgin, Alstom and Bombardier sat together at the drawing board they said "lets build a train as despising, uncomfortable and inconvenient as possible ". No, you're right, they didn't. Get over it.

I have the same opinion in regards to Voyagers, they're fine apart from one thing - the length. They should of been constructed to at least as six or seven carriages long from build. I'm Glad that MML opted for a variation of up to nine carriages for the Meridian project.

 

[lordhinton]

you dont like 390's but what if they brought refurbished lengthened electric 142's?
which would we prefer then

 

[tbtc]

Do these people really believe, in all honesty to the holy lord god, that when the consortium of Virgin, Alstom and Bombardier sat together at the drawing board they said "lets build a train as despising, uncomfortable and inconvenient as possible "

I give it ten minutes before the first person claims that the small windows on Pendolini are because Richard Branson designed them to resemble the interior of his aircraft




(and, yes, I know that story is cobblers, but I've heard it "claimed" so many times before that I think some enthusiasts do genuinely believe it!)

 

[junglejames]

It's called nostalgia. It's a strange sentiment.

I was shocked at how many people ventured out in the early hours of the morning to see the Pendolino on the ECML. Ironic isn't it. Pendolino's up and down the WCML all day but move them just next door to the ECML and people flock from miles around to see one. Weird.

I have no problem with the tilt mechanism on a Pendolino.
I have no problem with the seating alignments on a Pendolino.
I have no problem with the seat density on a Pendolino.
I have no problem with the window size on a Pendolino.
I have no problem with the smaller body shell size of a Pendolino.

In fact, I have with no problems with the Pendolino, at all.

I genuinely believe that most people who curse the Pendolino are just nit-picking purely because we live in a free country, they're on a public forum and their human rights enable them to complain. Do these people really believe, in all honesty to the holy lord god, that when the consortium of Virgin, Alstom and Bombardier sat together at the drawing board they said "lets build a train as despising, uncomfortable and inconvenient as possible ". No, you're right, they didn't. Get over it.

I have the same opinion in regards to Voyagers, they're fine apart from one thing - the length. They should of been constructed to at least as six or seven carriages long from build. I'm Glad that MML opted for a variation of up to nine carriages for the Meridian project.

So you have no problems. Congrats. However some do, and its got absolutely nowt to do with the right to complain. To suggest such seems very odd to me.
Its often said by pendy lovers, that the haters cant accept the lovers. Well from what I see, it is constantly the other way round.

I also see that you purely claim you have no problems with them. Thats very different to saying that they are good. Others on here have seen whats possible, and can see the major shortcomings of the pendys. The same with the voyagers. The design of them wasnt thought through sufficiently. This is evidenced by the Meridians. The interior design was thought about, and because of this, they are much better than voyagers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

you dont like 390's but what if they brought refurbished lengthened electric 142's?
which would we prefer then

Ive frequently said a pacer is much better when you compare what the 2 trains are designed for.

 

[tbtc]

I also see that you purely claim you have no problems with them. Thats very different to saying that they are good. Others on here have seen whats possible, and can see the major shortcomings of the pendys. The same with the voyagers. The design of them wasnt thought through sufficiently. This is evidenced by the Meridians. The interior design was thought about, and because of this, they are much better than voyagers

Of course, the fact that 222s don't tilt allowed the interior design some flexibility which the Voyagers didn't have

 

[Goldfish62]

I didn't feel it at all on an ICE-T* (Though they might not use it between Berlin and Leipzig as the line looks fairly straight from the map)


*ICE-T uses the Fiat tilt system from EuroPendolinos with German bodies and traction.

I'm surprised the ICE-T you were on actually moved. They're not exactly the most reliable of trains.

 

[6Gman]

Ive frequently said a pacer is much better when you compare what the 2 trains are designed for.

The Pacers were designed !

 

[WL113]

Pendolinos are excellent pieces of kit...

 

[172212]

The pendolinos are indeed one of the best trains I have ever been on, probably the best train I've been on design and comfort wise.

 

[DJ_K666]

I used to use the Pendos when I was travelling up to Rugby every week. I was not unimpressed but I only have a hazy memory of a return trip to Birmingham Airport back in the 80s to meet my sister (Why she was flying into Birmingham I really can't say). We travelled on that trip in a mk3 up and for some reason a mk2d on the return. I'm sure it wasn't, but for some reason I remember coming back in one. This means I haven't really got anything to compare the Pendo to reliably, apart from a Voyager. It was my first trip on the Northern Line though.

 

[All Line Rover]

Ive frequently said a pacer is much better when you compare what the 2 trains are designed for.

So if I was commuting each day from Crewe to Manchester, I'd prefer to do it on a Pacer (with a feeling of sickness from the fumes, being freezing cold in winter, bouncing the whole way there, being almost deaf once I reach Manchester and being squashed against everyone else) instead of First Class on a Pendolino? I know which one I'd pick. :roll:

 

[williamn]

I think they're fine but the toilets DO still smell and they are rather claustrophobic in standard. A MK3 feels much more open. For that reason I always try and get a cheap 1st class ticket when travelling on one.

 

[junglejames]

Of course, the fact that 222s don't tilt allowed the interior design some flexibility which the Voyagers didn't have

First ive heard of that.
Still, doesnt get away from the fact the interior is poorly designed, and thats without even thinking about the windows, which neednt have been like they are. Thats not an internal thing though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So if I was commuting each day from Crewe to Manchester, I'd prefer to do it on a Pacer (with a feeling of sickness from the fumes, being freezing cold in winter, bouncing the whole way there, being almost deaf once I reach Manchester and being squashed against everyone else) instead of First Class on a Pendolino? I know which one I'd pick. :roll:

Trust you to compare first against standard. Also, ive seen exagerated, and ive seen exgerated.
Plus, pacers werent intended for Crewe to Manchester.

 

[timstours]

anything is better than a pendolino,and perhaps a liitle off subject perhaps a 344-xxx 5 car version of a swt 444 for the north west scotland services ,5 coaches and very comfortable

 

[starrymarkb]

First ive heard of that.
Still, doesnt get away from the fact the interior is poorly designed, and thats without even thinking about the windows, which neednt have been like they are. Thats not an internal thing though!

The Windows are the same size on a Voyager and Meridian! There is more above floor equipment on the Voyagers as they have tilt actuators (or space to fit them in the case of the 220). With no plans to fit tilt some more kit could go under the floor.

The passenger saloon layout was specified by Virgin, It wouldn't be too bad if they were longer and Richard Bowker* hadn't come up with the 3 class idea meaning too many disabled loos

*Yes that one, later seen making a mess at the SRA and National Express

 

[sprinterguy]

anything is better than a pendolino,and perhaps a liitle off subject perhaps a 344-xxx 5 car version of a swt 444 for the north west scotland services ,5 coaches and very comfortable

If, following Transpennine North electrification, TPE could procure one standard fleet of 5-car AC electric 444 derivatives to operate both the TPE North services and the Manchester - Scotland ones, that would be fantastic

 

[All Line Rover]

Trust you to compare first against standard. Also, ive seen exagerated, and ive seen exgerated.
Plus, pacers werent intended for Crewe to Manchester.

Actually I'm comparing First with First. But a slight problem is that First Class does not exist on Pacers. (Oh, and did I forget to mention that a First Class VT Only season ticket is £2356 compared to £2216 for a Standard Class Any Permitted season ticket - that about 20p extra per journey?)

I also don't understand your claim that Pacers are not intended for a 45 minute journey. They currently run on much longer routes.

 

[Aictos]

If, following Transpennine North electrification, TPE could procure one standard fleet of 5-car AC electric 444 derivatives to operate both the TPE North services and the Manchester - Scotland ones, that would be fantastic

Yes it would be fantastic and would certainly increase the seating capacity of the routes - my only question is how many of these units would be required to enable the best use of this increased seating capacity and also how would they best be used on these routes?

As a example, could TPE run both a Glasgow and a Edinburgh portion together between Carstairs and Manchester using up one path for the majority of the journey then splitting/joining at Carstairs?

 

[junglejames]

The Windows are the same size on a Voyager and Meridian! There is more above floor equipment on the Voyagers as they have tilt actuators (or space to fit them in the case of the 220). With no plans to fit tilt some more kit could go under the floor.

The passenger saloon layout was specified by Virgin, It wouldn't be too bad if they were longer and Richard Bowker* hadn't come up with the 3 class idea meaning too many disabled loos

*Yes that one, later seen making a mess at the SRA and National Express

I was on about Pendys regarding the windows.
Id say there was slightly more than just the length that a lot of people complain about regarding voyagers, but hey, thats drifting!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually I'm comparing First with First. But a slight problem is that First Class does not exist on Pacers. (Oh, and did I forget to mention that a First Class VT Only season ticket is £2356 compared to £2216 for a Standard Class Any Permitted season ticket - that about 20p extra per journey?)

I also don't understand your claim that Pacers are not intended for a 45 minute journey. They currently run on much longer routes.

Doesnt matter just about length of journey. Glad you found yourself a season ticket you can be proud of. Dont shout too loud otherwise the rest of the WCML may follow suit

Pacers were designed as a cheap alternative to keep small, slow, highly at risk, lines going. For this they were perfect. They werent designed to run between Crewe and Manchester.
Standard class on a pendy (first I can live with, but thats only a match for standard class elsewhere), is, arguably, far from perfect for a 4hr journey to Glasgow.
As I said before, fine below the solebar, but something else to be desired above.
If its necessary to have a train that will be narrow and have shallow windows, thats fine, but dont then add to it with poor interior design.

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes it would be fantastic and would certainly increase the seating capacity of the routes - my only question is how many of these units would be required to enable the best use of this increased seating capacity and also how would they best be used on these routes?

As a example, could TPE run both a Glasgow and a Edinburgh portion together between Carstairs and Manchester using up one path for the majority of the journey then splitting/joining at Carstairs?

As far as I am aware, the future plan for the Manchester to Scotland services is to combine northbound Manchester and Liverpool portions at Preston, rather than having two portions from Manchester splitting at Carstairs for Edinburgh & Glasgow. So between Preston and Glasgow, and at Carstairs, certainly there would be no platform length issues with accomodating a pair of 5 x 23m EMUs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You make it sound as though it has to be a compromise? Fast journey times and rubbish interior, or good interior, rubbish journey times. Why cant we have the best of both worlds? It is possible. Its untrue to suggest its not possible to have a nice interior on a pendy.

It doesn't have to be a compromise between faster journey times or a nicer interior - I would love to see UK loading gauge Siemens Taurus locos and the equivalent of OBB "Railjet" push-pull rakes on the WCML instead of Pendos - but in comparison of the WCML at present and in the past then the Pendolinos present more benefits to the general travelling public than they do pitfalls.

 

[Aictos]

As far as I am aware, the future plan for the Manchester to Scotland services is to combine northbound Manchester and Liverpool portions at Preston, rather than having two portions from Manchester splitting at Carstairs for Edinburgh & Glasgow. So between Preston and Glasgow, and at Carstairs, certainly there would be no platform length issues with accomodating a pair of 5 x 23m EMUs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It doesn't have to be a compromise between faster journey times or a nicer interior - I would love to see UK loading gauge Siemens Taurus locos and the equivalent of OBB "Railjet" push-pull rakes on the WCML instead of Pendos - but in comparison of the WCML at present and in the past then the Pendolinos present more benefits to the general travelling public than they do pitfalls.

So how many 444 type Siemens EMUs would TPE require to operate the Manchester/Liverpool to Scotland services and would it be worth having a second batch for the Manchester to Newcastle services?

 

[sprinterguy]

So how many 444 type Siemens EMUs would TPE require to operate the Manchester/Liverpool to Scotland services and would it be worth having a second batch for the Manchester to Newcastle services?

Depending on how much of the TPE North network is wired up, we could potentially end up witnessing a fleet size similar to the 444 fleet:

An hourly, clockface, Liverpool/Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow service would take up about 10-12 trains.

If the TPE North network was wired up extensively to include Middlesborough and Hull as well as Newcastle, then that could account for up to 30 trains, assuming that, if TPEs' existing service from Scarborough was transferred over to Northern to operate as an extension of the York to Blackpool service then a new TPE service operates in that path through the Transpennine core.

Even a far more conservative estimate could assume that a minimum of 30 units would be needed for these two corridors: No smaller than many other recent train orders, such as LMs' 350/1s and 172s, or Southerns' upcoming 377/6s.

I would assume that Transpennine North electrification would be the driving force for new units being ordered for the North West - Scotland service, rather than the other way around. Without inclusion in a larger train order, I would imagine that it would continue with it's fleet of 350/4 units that are currently on order.

 

[tbtc]

If its necessary to have a train that will be narrow and have shallow windows, thats fine, but dont then add to it with poor interior design.

It is if you want it to run at over 110mph on the WCML, yes.

 

[HSTEd]

It is if you want it to run at over 110mph on the WCML, yes.

Super Voyager Windows are larger than than Pendolino windows aren't they?

ANd lets not even get into the Mark 4T....

Pendolinos have the windows they do due to overspecification in terms of speed and because all Pendolinos look like that, its the style the family has adopted.

 

[Manchester77]

I would rather have mark 4 coaches that tilt than pendolinos

 

[LE Greys]

Oh, Rob, come on. The EPBs had big bouncy squeaky metal sprug cushions, poor bogies, no damping, really not up to modern day standards.

Must admit though, that being SR born, bred and trained, I do have a soft spot for the EPBs, HAPS, CEPs, BEPs, CIGS, BIGS, VEPs and the SUBs (which I did work on before they were withdrawn. Even did some work on the 2-BIL in the early '80's!!

I happen to like big bouncy squeaky metal sprung cushions . Way better than skinny foam pads with a bit of carpet on them. Still, for me, performance trumps comfort, and having done Glasgow-London in less than four hours, I reckon Pendys aren't too bad. MkIVt's would be far better, but that's another issue.

 

[Smudger105e]

I would rather have mark 4 coaches that tilt than pendolinos

But aren't Mk4s too fat at the top to tilt? And the shape of the Pendo bodyshell is the shape it is to maintain the operating envelope, which does influence some aspects of interior design. So the choice is, lower speeds in a Mk4, or shorter journey times in a leaning and narrower bodyshell...

I happen to like big bouncy squeaky metal sprung cushions

The seats in the phase 1 CIGs were better, big and bouncy, than those on the phase 2 units.

And if you take them off, pile them between the seats, they make quite a reasonable bed.

 

[Oswyntail]

But aren't Mk4s too fat at the top to tilt? ...

IIRC, they were designed to accommodate tilt, but not to the same degree as the Pendos.