TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[winks]

I hope the train companies and/or the RDG come up with a solution to this.

Claire Mann, managing director of South Western Railway, said: “We are disappointed with the withdrawal of the Travelcard. We want to work with the other train operating companies and the Rail Delivery Group to see if we can keep this going.”

 

[JonathanH]

Could you elaborate on that point?

I would argue that the minimum fare, the extension of PAYG on Contactless and indeed the withdrawal of the Travelcard are all examples of where the usefulness of the Network Railcard has been diminished.

 

[Hadders]

My casual observations suggest that the Network Railcard is still very popular from Outer Suburban stations. ISTR the TfL consultation conversation on the withdrawal of Travelcards actually stated the number of travelcards issued with each railcard.

EDIT - Here it is:

This is the breakdown of Travelcards sold by TOCs which were bought using railcards between April 2022 and February 2023



7,275,604 Off Peak and 573,472 Anytime Travelcards were issued by TOCs outside Zones 1-6 (these are in effect outboundary Travelcards which is the main issue with the withdrawal of Travelcards)

So 59% of Travelcards issued by TOCs outside Zones 1-6 are bought with a railcard. The Network Railcard accounts for just under 25% of all Travelcards purchased with a railcard.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Network card possibly. Gold card l seriously doubt. That would be a massive disincentive for new annual ST purchases.

How many annual seasons do you think are sold nowadays?

 

[alistairlees]

How many annual seasons do you think are sold nowadays?

You beat me to it

My casual observations suggest that the Network Railcard is still very popular from Outer Suburban stations. ISTR the TfL consultation conversation on the withdrawal of Travelcards actually stated the number of travelcards issued with each railcard.

EDIT - Here it is:

This is the breakdown of Travelcards sold by TOCs which were bought using railcards between April 2022 and February 2023

View attachment 143594

7,275,604 Off Peak and 573,472 Anytime Travelcards were issued by TOCs outside Zones 1-6 (these are in effect outboundary Travelcards which is the main issue with the withdrawal of Travelcards)

So 59% of Travelcards issued by TOCs outside Zones 1-6 are bought with a railcard. The Network Railcard accounts for just under 25% of all Travelcards purchased with a railcard.

I wonder what "issued by TOCs" actually means. Does it mean sold by TOCs (so excluding all other sales channels)? Or does it mean issued by TOCs in the retail sense, where all TOC sales would count, and also Travelcards issued at TVMs via ToD (even if they are sold via a non-TOC retailer)? If it's the former, then a fair number of Travelcard sales are missing.

 

[Wallsendmag]

You beat me to it

And how many that are issued are issued to people who only want a Goldcard

 

[Hadders]

I wonder what "issued by TOCs" actually means. Does it mean sold by TOCs (so excluding all other sales channels)? Or does it mean issued by TOCs in the retail sense, where all TOC sales would count, and also Travelcards issued at TVMs via ToD (even if they are sold via a non-TOC retailer)? If it's the former, then a fair number of Travelcard sales are missing.

For completeness here's the full document. It does list Travelcards issued by TfL, TOCs and Third Party Retailers separately but there's no railcard breakdown of Third Party Sales.

 

[Wolfie]

How many annual seasons do you think are sold nowadays?

I genuinely have no idea. I'm guessing not too many given the tenor of your comments.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I genuinely have no idea. I'm guessing not too many given the tenor of your comments.

Nowhere near the number pre pandemic

 

[MikeWh]

Nowhere near the number pre pandemic

Not a surprise. The workers who could afford an annual are likely to be those most eligible for work from home part-time.

 

[Snow1964]

Seems Surrey County council is upset at proposal to withdraw too, and is debating it tomorrow

A meeting will be held in Reigate on Tuesday to debate a motion from Surrey's cabinet member for transport, infrastructure and growth, Matt Furniss.

Councillor Furniss will ask the council leader to write to Sadiq Khan, as well as the transport secretary, “urging him to intervene in this matter”.

He described the proposal as "discriminatory" and called plans to remove the travelcards "unfair, unacceptable and (an) expensive levy" on residents who travel to London.

Councillor Furniss said: “The proposals have deliberately targeted the removal of the day travelcard as a method to generate additional income for TfL.

London day travelcard plans to be phased out criticised by Surrey council

TfL says it is under-funded by the travelcard agreement at an annual cost of about £40m.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Kite159]

Seems Surrey County council is upset at proposal to withdraw too, and is debating it tomorrow

London day travelcard plans to be phased out criticised by Surrey council

TfL says it is under-funded by the travelcard agreement at an annual cost of about £40m.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'm sure Khan will be shaking at the prospect of getting a letter from the council which he will print off the standard template reply.

 

[Haywain]

Seems Surrey County council is upset at proposal to withdraw too, and is debating it tomorrow

London day travelcard plans to be phased out criticised by Surrey council

TfL says it is under-funded by the travelcard agreement at an annual cost of about £40m.

www.bbc.co.uk

It's only taken them 6 months to notice!

 

[Hadders]

Geoff Marshall has made a video on this.

 

[redreni]

Interesting. Worth bearing in mind, as context for those price comparisons, that train tickets and travelcards are Network Railcard-discountable, especially at weekends, where PAYG fares aren't.

This can make the price difference quite significant even when only making a return journey to zone 1 with no additional journeys.

E.g. Erith to Bond St, currently £10 at weekends with an inboundary day travelcard, will be £12.80 on PAYG for just the return trip (reducible to £10.50 if you buy a discounted anytime day return to Abbey Wood then switch to PAYG).

Without the day travelcard the only way I can see to pay a sensible fare for a return trip from zone 6 to zone 1 at the weekend will be to buy an off-peak return ticket from outside zone 6 and start and finish short.

Most people won't do that. Will they overpay or just not travel as much by public transport? That's the question.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

Is there a definitive date for Travelcards to be withdrawn?
Have seen several Dates in Jan 24 banded around
TIA

 

[Gaelan]

Interesting. Worth bearing in mind, as context for those price comparisons, that train tickets and travelcards are Network Railcard-discountable, especially at weekends, where PAYG fares aren't.

Also GroupSave, and any railcard without an Oyster card (which costs £7 - so a few days of hitting caps before it breaks even)

 

[Surreytraveller]

Is there a definitive date for Travelcards to be withdrawn?
Have seen several Dates in Jan 24 banded around
TIA

It'll be whatever the date in January when the fares change

 

[AY1975]

Without the day travelcard the only way I can see to pay a sensible fare for a return trip from zone 6 to zone 1 at the weekend will be to buy an off-peak return ticket from outside zone 6 and start and finish short.

So are tickets from stations just outside the Travelcard area (or I suppose I should now say Oyster area) to zone 1 generally cheaper than tickets from stations just inside zone 5 or 6? Can you give an example of where this is the case? I would have thought it would be the other way round.

AIUI if you start or finish your journey short of the station shown on the ticket, and the fare from the station where you actually board or alight is cheaper than from the station shown, then that's OK, but not if it's more expensive (and there are a few instances where that is the case). Where the fare for the journey you are actually making is more expensive than what you have paid for, if the station where you board or alight has ticket gates or manual ticket checks, you could be refused entry when trying to start your journey and issued with a Penalty Fare (not sure if gateline staff have the authority to issue a PF, though) or an Unpaid Fare Notice or Travel Irregularity Report when exiting the station.

 

[hkstudent]

So are tickets from stations just outside the Travelcard area (or I suppose I should now say Oyster area) to zone 1 generally cheaper than tickets from stations just inside zone 5 or 6? Can you give an example of where this is the case? I would have thought it would be the other way round.

AIUI if you start or finish your journey short of the station shown on the ticket, and the fare from the station where you actually board or alight is cheaper than from the station shown, then that's OK, but not if it's more expensive (and there are a few instances where that is the case). Where the fare for the journey you are actually making is more expensive than what you have paid for, if the station where you board or alight has ticket gates or manual ticket checks, you could be refused entry when trying to start your journey and issued with a Penalty Fare (not sure if gateline staff have the authority to issue a PF, though) or an Unpaid Fare Notice or Travel Irregularity Report when exiting the station.

I think it’s due to the issue of Greater London is only having Anytime tickets but out of London do have off peak tickets, thus the cheaper ticket.
It’s not against the rules as they are tickets with different restrictions.

 

[MrJeeves]

AIUI if you start or finish your journey short of the station shown on the ticket, and the fare from the station where you actually board or alight is cheaper than from the station shown, then that's OK, but not if it's more expensive (and there are a few instances where that is the case).

Doesn't matter if it's more or less expensive. If you pay less by getting a ticket to a station further down the line, provided it allows break of journey, it's valid to start or end short.

 

[fandroid]

Would there be any mileage in TfL creating their own add-on ticket, similar to PlusBus but valid on all TfL run services within zones 1-6. If they want to be rid of paper tickets, they could make them available on ITSO Smartcards only. They could set the price to be whatever they thought would benefit them

 

[Haywain]

Would there be any mileage in TfL creating their own add-on ticket, similar to PlusBus but valid on all TfL run services within zones 1-6. If they want to be rid of paper tickets, they could make them available on ITSO Smartcards only. They could set the price to be whatever they thought would benefit them

What, you mean like a Travelcard? No, they already have a product - it's called Oyster and has a pricing scheme called capping which, happily, also applies to contactless payment cards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would there be any mileage in TfL creating their own add-on ticket, similar to PlusBus but valid on all TfL run services within zones 1-6. If they want to be rid of paper tickets, they could make them available on ITSO Smartcards only. They could set the price to be whatever they thought would benefit them

That describes the old LT Card, but you could buy it now by getting an Oyster card and going to a Ticket Stop and loading it with the price of a 1-6 cap by cash.

 

[JonathanH]

Can you give an example of where this is the case? I would have thought it would be the other way round.

Esher to Waterloo - Sunday Out Return £6.25 with railcard.
Surbiton to Waterloo - £4.80 off-peak single on Oyster / Contactless

Trivially, even a discount on Oyster card works out as £3.15 each way.

There are examples of this sort of thing all round London.

 

[redreni]

I think it’s due to the issue of Greater London is only having Anytime tickets but out of London do have off peak tickets, thus the cheaper ticket.
It’s not against the rules as they are tickets with different restrictions.

Exactly that.

You'd think a return ticket from Erith to Bond Street would cost less than a ticket from Erith to Iver in South Buckinghamshire, wouldn't you, but hey. I don't set the fares.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

It'll be whatever the date in January when the fares change

Thanks
Am trying to get as many Trips in as poss before they go to scratch my remaining Stations and Units.
After Jan my Modus Operandi may have to be a Network Card Day Return to Watford Junction and Oyster from there (stepping back a Train).
I don't yet have an Oyster (as you can tell) so am planning on a visit to the TFL Travel Centre to rectify this in November sometime.

 

[1D54]

This would mean from a date in January 2024 before 21 January 2024, Day Travelcards will no longer be sold or accepted by TfL for travel on the TfL network.

 

[JonathanH]

This would mean from a date in January 2024 before 21 January 2024, Day Travelcards will no longer be sold or accepted by TfL for travel on the TfL network.

In 9 days time, it will be possible to buy a day travelcard for 21 January on booking sites which apply a 13 week horizon, that is the GWR website currently allows me to buy one on 12 January.

That kind of suggests that the formal announcement needs to be made soon to stop sales from the withdrawal date onwards.

 

[cobraman]

Do the off peak travel cards work on Elizabeth Line to Heathrow ? Or are they not valid since they charge peak fare?