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TfL to bid for Southeastern and Anglia franchises?

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AlterEgo

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However it's not just about fares of course. Generally speaking the standard provided by TfL Rail services is far superior to that provided by the Tocs, a few exceptions to be noted of course.

I couldn't agree more. Travelling on Overground services is actually a pleasure in London. I've put myself in the evening peak on the NLL and Watford DC Lines to check it out several times in the last year and each time I've been impressed. Frequent, reliable service. Clean stations, visible staff and any disruptions handled as best they can.

I for one would be pleased to see further rollout of the Overground brand and ethos. I appreciate a lot of money has been chucked at it (and they got important decisions such as the new rolling stock absolutely right in my view) and that Rome wasn't built in a day, but if I was a commuter in the affected area I'd be keen.
 
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DVD

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The Mayor's vision, as set out earlier this year, is for inner-surburban services to be devolved to TfL. For Southeastern this would include services to Sevenoaks, Hayes and Dartford and for Greater Anglia services to Hertford East, Chingford and Enfield Town. A Bromley South to Victoria service would also be introduced. All services devolved to TfL would be rebranded London Overground and operate at a "turn-up-and-go" frequency. As far as I can tell they will still be operated and included in their existing franchises.

I can't see a "turn up and go" concept ever succeeding on Southeastern metro services, there just isn't the capacity to provide it on all the 'metro' lines. But what would be good is to see service frequencies increased during evenings and weekends (especially Sundays). I use the Sidcup line daily and after 8 pm it's a 30 minute service interval 7 days a week, the same for Sundays. It is clear that there is some capacity to increase this to say every 20 minutes - and replicate this for the other Metro lines - if Boris's plan could achieve this then I'm in favour.

The 'Boris plan' also refers to "higher customer service standards, with greater train service reliability, and improved station ambience, staffing, passenger security, customer information and station facilities". Southeastern have - to their credit - invested a great deal in most Metro stations and I find their general standard to be good with a satisfactory ambience and facilities.
 

John55

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That could be sorted out quite easily without needing to take over the services. Charge the passengers a standard zonal fare, but rejig the back office software to share out the fare box and TfL subsidy differently by route taken.

Passengers shouldn't need to know the detail at all, there must be something similar going on to share out travlecard fare income between all modes - including the buses...

In order to retain the existing revenue do you propose to increase tube fares to reduce NR+TfL fares or ask for more money from the taxpayers of the UK who pay for TfL at the moment?
 

Clip

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The Mayor's vision, as set out earlier this year, is for inner-surburban services to be devolved to TfL. For Southeastern this would include services to Sevenoaks, Hayes and Dartford and for Greater Anglia services to Hertford East, Chingford and Enfield Town. A Bromley South to Victoria service would also be introduced. All services devolved to TfL would be rebranded London Overground and operate at a "turn-up-and-go" frequency. As far as I can tell they will still be operated and included in their existing franchises.


Ive asked this before and cant remember if I got a decent answer - but how on Earth do you have a Bromley South Terminator? Especially at peak times? is there enough platform capacity available there to have a train sit for about 5 mins or whatever the turn around time may be? I very much doubt it.

But I am willing to be proven wrong.
 

swt_passenger

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In order to retain the existing revenue do you propose to increase tube fares to reduce NR+TfL fares or ask for more money from the taxpayers of the UK who pay for TfL at the moment?

Well of course, and that's the whole nub of the problem. People complaining about the fares complexity (which MikeWh explains above) will still have to pay the same total amount as TfL and the TOCs get between them, so yes some fares would have to rise as some fell. Or put another way, some of TfL's subsidy from DfT would have to be diverted to the TOCs.
 

Mojo

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Well of course, and that's the whole nub of the problem. People complaining about the fares complexity (which MikeWh explains above) will still have to pay the same total amount as TfL and the TOCs get between them, so yes some fares would have to rise as some fell. Or put another way, some of TfL's subsidy from DfT would have to be diverted to the TOCs.
Although on the other hand, expect several million to be saved by reducing the need for the multitude of contractual agreements, working parties and other such things between the London Tocs and TfL.
 

swt_passenger

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Although on the other hand, expect several million to be saved by reducing the need for the multitude of contractual agreements, working parties and other such things between the London Tocs and TfL.

That depends. As I noted earlier, the report also refers to the 'local TOCs' running the service as contractors to TfL, which as far as I can see means them having a subdivision of their staff, rolling stock, and station estate operating just like LOROL.

The main benficiaries might be vinyl companies, because it is naive to expect that such a transfer would lead to new stock all round.

LO/LOROL is as good as it is because the takeover coincided with a full fleet replacement that was just about due anyway, there's little likelihood of SE especially getting a new fleet for their metro routes just to make them look the same as LO...
 

pemma

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However it's not just about fares of course. Generally speaking the standard provided by TfL Rail services is far superior to that provided by the Tocs, a few exceptions to be noted of course.

The main benefit of LO seems to be the brand new rolling stock.

I'm not sure if Southeastern would get the same benefit. The 375s could easily be used elsewhere but are relatively modern so would TfL invest in replacing them? And are there many other areas that could make use of the 465/6s if they were replaced?
 

Mojo

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The main benefit of LO seems to be the brand new rolling stock.
To an extent, but the units operated by Silverlink Metro on the electric trains were older and in worse condition than many of the units running on the suburban services south of the river. Even the older units (eg. 455s) have been refurbished to a fairly high standard.

The main benefit of TfL rail services from what I can see is consistent branding and advertising, through ticketing, staffing from first train to last train at stations, improved security, station refurbishments and reliability improvements.
 

cle

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I guess they're the ones which terminate in the boundaries, or close enough.

Is the Bromley South - Victoria service going to be the SLL replacement to Victoria for Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye? I thought those were being covered by diverting some faster Kent trains?

If so, what'll the stopping pattern be? Will Clapham HS/Wandworth Road only be LOROL services for the forseeable?
 

Aictos

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I can see TfL being interested in Moorgate to Gordon Hill running a shuttle service between the two locations on a turn up and go frequency with the existing services being fast between Finsbury Park and Gordon Hill.

However, what might be better is for TfL to manage the Inners between Moorgate and Potters Bar/Gordon Hill but FCC or LOROL actually operationally running these services with FCC being responsible for Potters Bar/Gordon Hill to Welwyn Garden City/Letchworth via Hertford.

Sort of like how South Eastern and First Capital Connect run their joint services.
 

A-driver

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I can see TfL being interested in Moorgate to Gordon Hill running a shuttle service between the two locations on a turn up and go frequency with the existing services being fast between Finsbury Park and Gordon Hill.

However, what might be better is for TfL to manage the Inners between Moorgate and Potters Bar/Gordon Hill but FCC or LOROL actually operationally running these services with FCC being responsible for Potters Bar/Gordon Hill to Welwyn Garden City/Letchworth via Hertford.

Sort of like how South Eastern and First Capital Connect run their joint services.

There are currently plans for the down bay to be re opened at Gordon hill plus a turnback platform at Stevenage. they are currently building new platforms at Ali Pali and finsbury park so moorgates won't interfere with thameslinks. They will run on the up goods which is being upgraded to 60mph.

As for potters bar terminators ken bid for that before but was rejected as there is no capacity for them to cross the ladder south of the station.
 

Class377/5

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Ive asked this before and cant remember if I got a decent answer - but how on Earth do you have a Bromley South Terminator? Especially at peak times? is there enough platform capacity available there to have a train sit for about 5 mins or whatever the turn around time may be? I very much doubt it.

But I am willing to be proven wrong.

It's a proses off peak only service.

Boris may want to introduce a new name for his proposals. How about Network SouthEast?

That's more a Thameslink name.

The main benefit of LO seems to be the brand new rolling stock.

I'm not sure if Southeastern would get the same benefit. The 375s could easily be used elsewhere but are relatively modern so would TfL invest in replacing them? And are there many other areas that could make use of the 465/6s if they were replaced?

There won't be no rolling stock for Southeastern. No money for it. To be honest won't be many places that can take the 3rd rail units other than SWT but why spend hen its not needed.

I can see TfL being interested in Moorgate to Gordon Hill running a shuttle service between the two locations on a turn up and go frequency with the existing services being fast between Finsbury Park and Gordon Hill.

However, what might be better is for TfL to manage the Inners between Moorgate and Potters Bar/Gordon Hill but FCC or LOROL actually operationally running these services with FCC being responsible for Potters Bar/Gordon Hill to Welwyn Garden City/Letchworth via Hertford.

Sort of like how South Eastern and First Capital Connect run their joint services.

But TfL can't manage the Thameslink 'core' services so you end up with two franchises on the GN route. Better to have one TOC.
 

Aictos

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There are currently plans for the down bay to be re opened at Gordon hill plus a turnback platform at Stevenage. they are currently building new platforms at Ali Pali and finsbury park so moorgates won't interfere with thameslinks. They will run on the up goods which is being upgraded to 60mph.

As for potters bar terminators ken bid for that before but was rejected as there is no capacity for them to cross the ladder south of the station.

Interesting, that turn back platform at Stevenage will it be the same length as the existing 4 platforms or restricted to 6/8 cars in length?

Good to see to see the Down Platform at Gordon Hill reopened, although it would be better to look into converting the bay platforms into though loops.
 

David10

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Will Clapham HS/Wandworth Road only be LOROL services for the forseeable?
Yes, Southern's Victoria - London Bridge via Clapham High Street and once a day Kensington Olympia - Wandsworth Road services will cease in December.
 

jon0844

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As for potters bar terminators ken bid for that before but was rejected as there is no capacity for them to cross the ladder south of the station.

Why stop at stations on or near the boundary (Z6)? Trains from Moorgate should continue on to WGC (or Hertford North/Stevenage) as they do now.

I can't see why they can't become part of LO (whether directly run, or a joint-operation). On the ECML, they'd run exclusively on the slows and if there are additional lines from Ally Pally south then all the better.

I thought the idea was to extend the zones out one day, as London is growing and WGC, Hertford and areas about the same distance outside of the M25 are increasingly becoming part of Greater London.

In fact, the problem now comes down more to the DfT arguing about what smartcards to use - not wanting to extend Oyster (even though this time last year, they were aiming to do just that).

London Overground would offer a metro-like turn up and go service, which would be slower than some existing trains (by always being all stations) but could still prove very popular for the convenience (and less hardship on the odd occasion where you can't board). They'd run around faster trains.

FCC still manages to squeeze in a 2TPH evening peak service (not sure how many in the morning) that shares the slow lines with the 3TPH slows to WGC. 2-3 stations from the end, it's likely to have caught up and may crawl but when I used to use them regularly, the train has already deposited the bulk of passengers by Potters Bar, so only a small number of people are delayed (and probably not delayed at all if they're going to WGC thanks to the recovery time in the timetable).

Could FCC still run services around 4TPH? Possibly not now, but if there are extra tracks brought into service then all it needs to do is be able to get ahead of the slow train by Alexandra Palace.

The question is whether you could fit LO trains to Herford East at that frequency, and other lines that are only two track.
 

transmanche

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The main benefit of LO seems to be the brand new rolling stock.

To an extent, but the units operated by Silverlink Metro on the electric trains were older and in worse condition than many of the units running on the suburban services south of the river. Even the older units (eg. 455s) have been refurbished to a fairly high standard.

The main benefit of TfL rail services from what I can see is consistent branding and advertising, through ticketing, staffing from first train to last train at stations, improved security, station refurbishments and reliability improvements.
Absolutely, I agree. The transformation of station environments and the increase in services since conversion to LO is quite amazing. Take a station like Crouch Hill; no longer a sad, run-down station with no facilities and an infrequent service. It's now somewhere you can just turn-up for a train on spec and is a safe, almost pleasant, place to wait.

However I don't think the 313s were at the end of their life. Yes, they're about 35 years old, but the refurb on the units transferred to Southern appears to have been well-received by some posters on here.

LO needed more (and longer) stock and I guess they decided that a uniform fleet was easier to manage, rather than refurbing 313s.
 

cle

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I could see LO taking over the line up to Hertford North, perhaps sharing staff and facilities with FCC beyond to Stevenage and Letchworth, if they continue to go there.

The Hertford Loop could then be a self-contained railwy to Moorgate (Mon-Fri) which I believe would mean it could no longer stop at Harringay and Hornsey.

And the Welwyn slows (4tph planned) will be on Thameslink, sharing tracks with the Cambridge and Peterborough slows (2tph).
 

transmanche

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I couldn't agree more. Travelling on Overground services is actually a pleasure in London. I've put myself in the evening peak on the NLL and Watford DC Lines to check it out several times in the last year and each time I've been impressed. Frequent, reliable service. Clean stations, visible staff and any disruptions handled as best they can.
Indeed. LO is far more than just new stock. It's an example of how to run an urban heavy-rail network, that PTEs and TOCs can learn from.
 

Clip

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Indeed. LO is far more than just new stock. It's an example of how to run an urban heavy-rail network, that PTEs and TOCs can learn from.

Actually I dont wholly agree with that statement. They dont have to share their track with anyone else bar a few freights a day over most of the network IIRC.

Will be a lot harder for them to provide the same level of service having to shares track space with other TOCs. They'll probably be still using the same stock as Southeastern are using now for quite sometime and should something happen going to any other the Terminals and they mess up its going to tarnish their image somewhat. Expect to see LOROL NPS results go down based on the terrible times SE have. Not to mention PPM.


Worth the risk? Im not so sure. I am sceptical about all this somewhat and amazed with people thinking the success of what LOROL have done already could be replaced on a railway that is used far more intensively then their own network is now.

But I am always happy to be proved wrong.
 

jon0844

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What people will like about LO will be the brighter stations, with staff on site until the last train has left. That will be a massive improvement for some stations, but also a big cost and one that might get people questioning the viability of doing so at very quiet stations.

Then again, if you make the system so enticing that people really can turn up and go (and pay quickly with a smartcard), even just for a few stops either way, you might just find usage increases significantly.
 

HSTEd

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Presumably the Networkers that apparently serve as the backbone of the Southeastern Commuter network could be cascaded elsewhere. (Somewhere must need pure third rail units.... how about to displace the southern Cl313s?)
 

Clip

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What people will like about LO will be the brighter stations, with staff on site until the last train has left. That will be a massive improvement for some stations, but also a big cost and one that might get people questioning the viability of doing so at very quiet stations.

Then again, if you make the system so enticing that people really can turn up and go (and pay quickly with a smartcard), even just for a few stops either way, you might just find usage increases significantly.

Like you say - it will become costly. Not just from tarting up the stations but also for the staffing levels and the benefits that will have to be applied as they are across all TFL concessions.

Just hope that usage does increase through this as more people riding the rails can only be a good thing for further investment plans.

I just worry about service levels when sharing with another more long distance TOC
 

A-driver

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Presumably the Networkers that apparently serve as the backbone of the Southeastern Commuter network could be cascaded elsewhere. (Somewhere must need pure third rail units.... how about to displace the southern Cl313s?)

Networkers are a problem south of London due to their width. A lot of Infastructure work was needed when they went there and they are barred from the central side to the extent that outside London bridge at blue anchor junction and outside Victoria there are special signs on the Brighton lines stating no networkers. I'm not sure if they could be cleared for the coastways.
 

Southern

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The 375s could easily be used elsewhere but are relatively modern so would TfL invest in replacing them?

With what? And where is the point? The units are only 11 years old and primarily operate long distance services that pass the boundary TFL have proposed.
 

mister-sparky

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Presumably the "Victoria to Bromley South" services mention would be the current 4tph Victoria - Orpington? which is only 3 stops after Bromley, and there wouldn't be any spare capacity on the line to an an extra services that terminates at Bromley.
 

robertclark125

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Out of interest, if TfL bid and run these franchises, surely the other local authorities outwith TfL land are going to want a say in how things are run. Not only that, there is a real danger of a 2 tier system here. What I mean is that as Boris wants greater control of rail in London, the Southeastern franchise could end up with TfL investing money in just the services internally within TfL Land only, and leaving everyone else to fend for themselves.

There's a risk that TfL could simply say to the people of Dover, "sorry, our franchise may serve you, but in any case, we look after London, you're not our problem". That's the risk with a TfL bid. Furthermore, if TfL got the franchise, I'd imagine the unions would want all staff to be on the same TfL terms and conditions and possibly pay.
 

jon0844

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It is a risk, sure.

However, I like the TfL system so much that frankly I'd like to see the whole south east (and then the whole UK) being run like that. By all means have private operators, but one body to manage and run the network, timetables and rolling stock. Like London buses.

You'd probably get fairer ticketing too. For one thing, TfL appears to run things on the basis that they're providing a public service - and striving to give a good service to people, which encourages usage. TfL also seems to look at the bigger picture, so working on how to link up the various modes of transport.

.....Oh, sorry about that - I just woke up. I had a really great dream...
 

Zoe

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However, I like the TfL system so much that frankly I'd like to see the whole south east (and then the whole UK) being run like that.
So you'd like NI Railways services to be contracted to the private sector rather than run directly by Translink?
 
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