Thameslink 2018 Timetable Consultation Part 2

[gingerheid]

I hope you're right.

I do worry about the whole thing a bit.

At the moment someone won't stand in the platform long before getting on a train that turns up (they might let one go by, but not too many).

With so many 2x hourly services, a lot more people could start standing on platforms, and waiting on them for longer while an average of 5 or 6 trains go past.

 

[Failed Unit]

Out of interest. ..

How do people rate the %age chances of the full service ever arriving?

It seems to rely on trains that are currently reasonably unreliable arriving from a huge variety of destinations in perfect sync and with perfect timing?

I don’t think I will ever travel from Welwyn Garden City to Blackfriars on a direct train.

 

[Failed Unit]

This is how I see it. I don't think the core will necessarily be the issue in terms of throughput, although there could be issues with passenger flows if there's a long gap to a popular destination.

The problem will be if a service is delayed somewhere and it results in a long gap. For example, northbound passengers from King's Cross on GN are used to trains departing right time - any kind of late departure is very much the exception. On today's Thameslink this isn't too much of a problem - St. Albans passengers (who seem to think all of Thameslink is laid on for and around them) are used to 8 tph. Most of the GN services will be 2 tph, which means passengers will be turning up based on the timetable, and they will quite reasonably expect their chosen service to arrive on time. Then you have the issue of small delays turning into bigger delays when one or more trains run off their booked path. Again, this isn't such a major issue on today's Thameslink as there's less clash between stopping patterns. Not so on GN, where you have the all-stations Moorgates, the Potters Bar/Hatfield outers, the fast to Stevenage outers, and the non-stop Ely/Kings Lynn services, all of which tangle up with each other at various locations. You can't just rely on layovers at the country end, because of the single-line sections on the Kings Lynn section, which will transmit delays between down and up services. Delays and service recovery measures will hit very hard on 2 tph services.

Personally I'd be much happier with the existing GN service largely retained, and Thameslink superimposed on top.

I expect a lot of skip stopping. The proposed timetable the first stop potters bar goes, 2 minutes later the all stations. Now the faster one is late. Do the hold the stopper? If they do they.

1. Have no turnover time at WGC
2. Delay the next fast as late arrival into WGC will hit it as well.
3. Skip stop the stopper to potters bar to keep the local to time.

 

[bramling]

I expect a lot of skip stopping. The proposed timetable the first stop potters bar goes, 2 minutes later the all stations. Now the faster one is late. Do the hold the stopper? If they do they.

1. Have no turnover time at WGC
2. Delay the next fast as late arrival into WGC will hit it as well.
3. Skip stop the stopper to potters bar to keep the local to time.

It occurs to me that Welwyn GC could well become quite a bottleneck. It already is when there are multiple terminating trains all trying to use platforms 3 & 4. Better hope everything terminating at Welwyn GC arrives on time, or else the Cambridge service gets delayed. And if the Cambridge all-stations service gets delayed, guess what gets stuck behind it!

 

[bramling]

Two words: Welwyn viaduct.

I don't think Welwyn viaduct is the worst problem. It's more common to get delayed through Hitchin, on the Cambridge branch, through Welwyn GC on the slows (especially in the down direction), or waiting to turn out to the fast line on an up journey south of Hatfield.

All these bottlenecks, including the viaduct, are at their worst when there is a little late running on one or more services. Thameslink will make this *much* worse.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't think Welwyn viaduct is the worst problem. It's more common to get delayed through Hitchin, on the Cambridge branch, through Welwyn GC on the slows (especially in the down direction), or waiting to turn out to the fast line on an up journey south of Hatfield.

All these bottlenecks, including the viaduct, are at their worst when there is a little late running on one or more services. Thameslink will make this *much* worse.

So what to GTR do? Make things worse by proposing to stop more trains at Welwyn North. Hopefully network rail have kicked this waste of paths into touch. But if not expect lots of missed stops at welwyn north.

 

[bramling]

So what to GTR do? Make things worse by proposing to stop more trains at Welwyn North. Hopefully network rail have kicked this waste of paths into touch. But if not expect lots of missed stops at welwyn north.

I suppose it doesn't help that Welwyn North has got quite accustomed to the level of calls it has now.

 

[Hadders]

I suspect it’ll all go wrong ‘Princess Style’ and end up having to be reworked by continuing to run most GN services into Kings Cross with a fewer services running through the core.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think Welwyn viaduct is the worst problem. It's more common to get delayed through Hitchin, on the Cambridge branch, through Welwyn GC on the slows (especially in the down direction), or waiting to turn out to the fast line on an up journey south of Hatfield.

All these bottlenecks, including the viaduct, are at their worst when there is a little late running on one or more services. Thameslink will make this *much* worse.

So (going back to your original statement) that's why Thameslink is largely replacing services, rather than being over and above the existing services.

 

[bramling]

So (going back to your original statement) that's why Thameslink is largely replacing services, rather than being over and above the existing services.

But it isn’t. Take the off-peak service through Hitchin. Currently 2tph from Peterborough and 2tph from Cambridge, one of each being semi fast and one stopping. Could have quite easily changed things to have had 1 tph Thameslink from both routes and the rest to KX. Or, more resiliently, confined Thameslink to the quadruple-track Peterborough route.

 

[gingerheid]

You want as many trains as possible to a destination to leave from the same London station, which is another consideration...

 

[MML]

Credit where credit is due.

My journey today was via London Bridge (didn't stop - straight through with a slightly longer dwell at Blackfriars northbound.
The track and new flyover South of London Bridge is so smooth.
A real pleasure to avoid the meandering slow and tortuous route via Crystal Palace and Herne Hill.

Things are on the up.

 

[USBT]

Credit where credit is due.

My journey today was via London Bridge (didn't stop - straight through with a slightly longer dwell at Blackfriars northbound.
The track and new flyover South of London Bridge is so smooth.
A real pleasure to avoid the meandering slow and tortuous route via Crystal Palace and Herne Hill.

Things are on the up.

Currently only about a dozen trains per day (in each direction) via LBG for route learning. But yes progress.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/london-bridge-reconstruction-works.108509/page-58#post-3309783

And there was the (now withdrawn) tweet from Network Rail/London Bridge that the route learners will be calling at LBG from Monday. Whether that was incorrect, or they didn't want it misinterpreted that all Bedfords will call at LBG, we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[infobleep]

Thanks for that. I did see that timetable, but it seems that they're having to recast from May after being thrown under the bus by EMT. Currently going south in the morning you'd be pretty unlucky not to get a seat from Flitwick, Harlington and Leagrave. With all the EMT refugees getting on at Bedford, I'm concerned that it'll be full and standing from Flitwick. Ugh!

In addition, when Thameslink goes tits up (as it frequently does) the alternative in the evening rush hour was to go to St Pancras and get on an EMT as far as Luton. That acted as a bit of a safety valve reducing the pressure on trains from the low level platforms. From May that won't be an option and the scrum at the gateline for the low level platforms will be even bigger.

Isn't progress great?

If they were having to recast the timetable, would they consult with passengers on their recast ideas? Or would it not be substantially different enough to need to do that?

 

[Failed Unit]

If they were having to recast the timetable, would they consult with passengers on their recast ideas? Or would it not be substantially different enough to need to do that?

Knowing GTR. They consult. But do it in a way they can ignore the impacted people in the way they have done the Thameslink consultancy.

As the whole franchise the say the majority of people expressed no preference. No surprise when changes to specific areas have no impact on the majority of the franchise. The way they have done the consultation they might as well have not bothered. Still they got the results they wanted and strong local opinions are ignored.

 

[infobleep]

You want as many trains as possible to a destination to leave from the same London station, which is another consideration...

I couldn't see that working at Brighton or it could they put all fast non stop trains to London Bridge or go ride of Thameslink stopping there.

Neither will happen.

 

[JonathanH]

You want as many trains as possible to a destination to leave from the same London station, which is another consideration...

But in the other direction from Southern destinations people actually demand a service to both London Bridge and Victoria and complain if one or the other is taken away / requires a change / is made slower.

 

[Hadders]

But in the other direction from Southern destinations people actually demand a service to both London Bridge and Victoria and complain if one or the other is taken away / requires a change / is made slower.

There's a clear difference between London Bridge and Victoria. It's a bit different for Kings Cross and St Pancras. Let's say I'm travelling to Cambridge, do I go to Kings Cross for the express or go to St Pancras if I've just missed it and the semi fast will get me there quicker? I can see infrequent passengers not realising this and thinking that the expresses have been removed and that all services are from St Pancras.

Consideration should be given to joint departure boards at St Pancras and Kings Cross covering both stations.

 

[Tunnel Bore]

But in the other direction from Southern destinations people actually demand a service to both London Bridge and Victoria and complain if one or the other is taken away / requires a change / is made slower.

Err, yes. The companies in the south were conscious of the need to serve both the West End and the City when they built their stations and today the same logic applies. I commute to Victoria, close to where I work, from a station with mostly London Bridge trains. It's a long slog from London Bridge on rush hour tubes t get to Victoria. I chose where to live based on commuting into Victoria on the few Victoria trains that exist. The GTR timetable re-cast removes all Victoria trains and the remaining TL trains skip Gatwick in the morning peak so I loose the option to change there. I face a change at East Croydon onto a packed Victoria train or a slog on the tube. I'm far from happy.

 

[philjo]

THere is an article in this week's local Comet newspaper saying that the peak hour bus replacement from Stevenage to Hertford will now start in December instead of May. also, there was mention of DfT asking Network Rail for the additional platform at Stevenage to be ready for 2020

 

[Ianno87]

But it isn’t. Take the off-peak service through Hitchin. Currently 2tph from Peterborough and 2tph from Cambridge, one of each being semi fast and one stopping. Could have quite easily changed things to have had 1 tph Thameslink from both routes and the rest to KX. Or, more resiliently, confined Thameslink to the quadruple-track Peterborough route.

Where would the 'missing' 2tph through the core go, to make up the 24tph, a key requirement of the final scheme?

Note that you'll get your wish in the initial timetable anyway for 18 months. The off-peak Hitchin service should be (by my reckoning) 1tph Brighton (sf), 2tph Horsham (sf), 2tph King's Cross (stopping - eventual Maidstones from Dec 19).

Net adding off-peak services I'm sure makes it harder to timetable mixed semi fast and stopping services to both the Cambridge and Peterborough routes whilst dovetailing in to nest half-hourly patterns further south. Have a go at trying to overlay an extra Cambridge semi-fast and stopper onto the current pattern, and you'll quickly come unstuck.

 

[radamfi]

Err, yes. The companies in the south were conscious of the need to serve both the West End and the City when they built their stations and today the same logic applies. I commute to Victoria, close to where I work, from a station with mostly London Bridge trains. It's a long slog from London Bridge on rush hour tubes t get to Victoria. I chose where to live based on commuting into Victoria on the few Victoria trains that exist. The GTR timetable re-cast removes all Victoria trains and the remaining TL trains skip Gatwick in the morning peak so I loose the option to change there. I face a change at East Croydon onto a packed Victoria train or a slog on the tube. I'm far from happy.

Is there somewhere south of Gatwick that will lose direct trains to either Gatwick or Haywards Heath in the morning peak? I can't think of anywhere other than Balcombe, but no one would move there for its train service.

 

[Skimble19]

THere is an article in this week's local Comet newspaper saying that the peak hour bus replacement from Stevenage to Hertford will now start in December instead of May. also, there was mention of DfT asking Network Rail for the additional platform at Stevenage to be ready for 2020

This is correct, the Moorgates will continue to run through to Stevenage until December. Plans are being worked on for traffic management etc. once/if the buses are needed to run though. I’ve not heard anything solid about Platform 5, last I heard was just a rumor that Network Rail had acquired the money for it but not aware of anything official (doesn’t mean it’s not happening, may just still be at a very senior level!)

 

[smithy1]

I gather the timetable is still not finalised, but maybe there's enough information for this to be answered: what does the off-peak service pattern for London-Cambridge (and back) look like (both for May and in the long-term)? Am I correct in saying that it'll still be 2 tph non-stop to KGX, and the semi-fasts and slows will all move to STP? Are any additional services being introduced? (Presumably Greater Anglia services to LST are entirely unaffected, though I would be interested to know if this won't be the case).

 

[jon0844]

Consideration should be given to joint departure boards at St Pancras and Kings Cross covering both stations.

I think that's a good idea, but I also think they'd have to consider the time some people will take to go from one to the other.

Let's imagine someone needing to use a lift, and not being so able bodied. The lifts for the low level platforms at St Pancras are incredibly slow, and then you have the trip over to King's Cross and, potentially, a trip to one of the low platform numbers - possibly even platform 0.

It may well cause more problems than it solves as it could easily take 10-15 minutes for some people, and a solution to remove trains in advance will also likely anger people who will say they could have made it.

At the end of the day, a LOT of people are going to be rather annoyed that they can currently arrive at King's Cross and if they aren't too late, can stroll to the platform and get on an empty train. Most people use their phones to see what platform to go to and while that can catch some people out, and cause hassle to platform staff and cleaners, generally it's quite relaxed.

Compare that to fighting amongst others on one single platform, and having very few areas to sit.

In the reverse direction, we have people now able to potentially travel through to the core, but in reality the need to currently walk over from KGX to STP isn't such a big deal as for the most part if you're going to Farringdon, City Thameslink etc then you just take whatever train comes in.. For that bit, it's like a turn up and go tube service.

I am sure as time goes on, many people will wonder why it was necessary to link GN up to the core if things regularly fall to bits. Many people are more likely going to travel to Finsbury Park to get services north as you have more trains and options. Once the station is more accessible the only issue will be the exposure to the elements.

 

[Hadders]

I think that's a good idea, but I also think they'd have to consider the time some people will take to go from one to the other.

Let's imagine someone needing to use a lift, and not being so able bodied. The lifts for the low level platforms at St Pancras are incredibly slow, and then you have the trip over to King's Cross and, potentially, a trip to one of the low platform numbers - possibly even platform 0.

It may well cause more problems than it solves as it could easily take 10-15 minutes for some people, and a solution to remove trains in advance will also likely anger people who will say they could have made it.

At the end of the day, a LOT of people are going to be rather annoyed that they can currently arrive at King's Cross and if they aren't too late, can stroll to the platform and get on an empty train. Most people use their phones to see what platform to go to and while that can catch some people out, and cause hassle to platform staff and cleaners, generally it's quite relaxed.

Compare that to fighting amongst others on one single platform, and having very few areas to sit.

In the reverse direction, we have people now able to potentially travel through to the core, but in reality the need to currently walk over from KGX to STP isn't such a big deal as for the most part if you're going to Farringdon, City Thameslink etc then you just take whatever train comes in.. For that bit, it's like a turn up and go tube service.

I am sure as time goes on, many people will wonder why it was necessary to link GN up to the core if things regularly fall to bits. Many people are more likely going to travel to Finsbury Park to get services north as you have more trains and options. Once the station is more accessible the only issue will be the exposure to the elements.

Agree with all of this. My biggest concern is the northbound platform and escalators to it at St Pancras as I simply don't think they will cope at busy times and during disruption. Southbound people will arrive and just leave the station but northbound people will need to wait for up to half an hour for some of the GN services. This could cause congestion at busy times and during disruption. The platforms are long but not the widest, there's only one escalator in each direction plus a fixed staircase iirc.

I do think Finsbury Park will see far more use and it'll be interesting to see how the station is made more accessible. At the moment it's ok if you can manage the spiral stair case but what's really needed are escalators to the Underground and to the mainline platforms. The steps to the mainline platforms really are quite steep. Also Finsbury needs better waiting facilities if it's going to need more use. The toilets also need dealing with - just about ok for 'emergency' use but that's all.

 

[Minstral25]

I think the same overcrowded platforms will be an issue to the South as well at London Bridge.

Where currently in teh evening peak, passengers spread out in trains parked in platforms 10-15 for Brighton, Littlehampton, East Grinstead, Redhill, Horsham, East Croydon & Gatwick they will all be on platform 4 waiting instead. Probably going to be one of the most overcrowded platforms in the UK.

There will be some clever East Croydon commuters on the Bognor, Eastbourne and Uckfield starters remaining in the old platforms. Think they may be less loaded than before.

 

[AndyY]

The new timetable is out now:
https://www.railplan2020.com/timetables

Looks like there will be more trains after 22:00 between Kentish Town and St. Albans, which is a good thing.
But the weekend timetables are not out yet. I wonder if frequency will be increased from half hourly?

 

[infobleep]

The new timetable is out now:
https://www.railplan2020.com/timetables

Looks like there will be more trains after 22:00 between Kentish Town and St. Albans, which is a good thing.
But the weekend timetables are not out yet. I wonder if frequency will be increased from half hourly?

Cheers for that.

Does anyone know how you find out which brand is running which service? I can't see anything on the Brighton mainline timetable to state this.

 

[Class465fan]

Great. Looks like I'll be losing the useful Gillingham semi fast service via Woolwich to some crappy thameslink service that'll be stopping at most stations.