Thameslink Class 700 - lack of USB/power facilities

[Mikey C]

And of course that's what 700s replaced. When I was living in St Albans and then N. London I couldn't wait to have 700s finally replace the creaky 319s that couldn't deal with the dwells and passenger loads they had to handle and were cramped and felt decades old. Whether the fact that 319s were generally not good, and therefore the 700s were marked up against them is debatable of course.

The 700s didn't just replace 319s

Even on the "legacy" Thameslink route, a lot of the services were operated by 377s and 387s.

 

[A0]

By doing a main line journey - like from London to the South coast.



Yes, and people are really going to wait around for half an hour just to get that twenty minute faster express service.

Meanwhile, in the real world, the majority will just catch the next reasonably fast train to Cambridge.

Cambridge and Brighton are a similar distance from London and have a choice of services which vary from fast (1 / 2 stops), to semi-fast (half a dozen stops) to stoppers. You make a choice about which to travel on.

Arguing all should have stock of the same type or same basic features is a nonsense to pretty much everyone except you it seems. The 700s cover the services where you have the most people i.e the semi fasts and stoppers, which because they stop at many stations en-route, means you have to accommodate more people.

The timetabling is *usually* that the fasts are sent so they don't get delayed by the stoppers - at Kings Cross they used to advertise the stoppers as Foxton so as to avoid people having a slower journey. And if you're that bothered about the rolling stock you get - which let's be fair is a disproportionate number of people on this board and is probably no casual travellers - then you'll know which services to aim for.

Once again, we've got angels dancing on the heads of pins over the marginal and edge case examples you and others seem to find to peddle to meet your objections. It never ceases to amaze me that you *always* seem to manage to use the trains which you don't like - do you spend every working hour conjuring up random days out on trains you don't like in order to come on here and rant about them ?

 

[J-2739]

I'd forgotten how controversial this topic is!

 

[AM9]

... A trolley serving hot drinks might be worthwhile.

That really would be running at a loss.

 

[driverd]

Cambridge and Brighton are a similar distance from London and have a choice of services which vary from fast (1 / 2 stops), to semi-fast (half a dozen stops) to stoppers. You make a choice about which to travel on.

Arguing all should have stock of the same type or same basic features is a nonsense to pretty much everyone except you it seems. The 700s cover the services where you have the most people i.e the semi fasts and stoppers, which because they stop at many stations en-route, means you have to accommodate more people.

The timetabling is *usually* that the fasts are sent so they don't get delayed by the stoppers - at Kings Cross they used to advertise the stoppers as Foxton so as to avoid people having a slower journey. And if you're that bothered about the rolling stock you get - which let's be fair is a disproportionate number of people on this board and is probably no casual travellers - then you'll know which services to aim for.

Once again, we've got angels dancing on the heads of pins over the marginal and edge case examples you and others seem to find to peddle to meet your objections. It never ceases to amaze me that you *always* seem to manage to use the trains which you don't like - do you spend every working hour conjuring up random days out on trains you don't like in order to come on here and rant about them ?

Clearly not a nonsense to argue all stock should have the same basic features as that's very much the reason this thread exists.

Various people have expressed their discontent with these units including the general public, credence given by the numerous news articles out there about how poor these new trains are.

No one has suggested they actively seek to travel on these trains to just complain and myself (atleast) tries to avoid them. I'm sorry that mine (and others) desire for a good railway service that meets the needs of the customer in 2021 offends you.

 

[AM9]

The 700s didn't just replace 319s

Even on the "legacy" Thameslink route, a lot of the services were operated by 377s and 387s.

Yes they did. The 700s replaced the 319s with more to allow the expansion of through the core services to other destinations. The 377s and 387s were loaned because the rapid increase in passenger numbers meant that the running of peak services comprising a single four-car unit was totally inadequate and bordering on dangerous in terms of overcrowding.

I'd forgotten how controversial this topic is!

Yes it regularly rekindles the usual rants.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 700s didn't just replace 319s

Even on the "legacy" Thameslink route, a lot of the services were operated by 377s and 387s.

That was temporary and was always stated to be temporary.

With regard to the 700 interiors, though, if there is a marked decline in commuting it might be worth the mid-life refurb adding wider seats with armrests throughout, possibly as a single class train. As I've said above, the Northern 195s, now I've used one that was properly full and standing, are just as easy for circulation if not better, because when you walk down the aisle you don't keep bashing people as the armrest "protects" them. The things that make the real difference to circulation are the door standbacks, wide doors and unimpeded inter-vehicle gangways. The standing capacity is less, to be fair, but that may not be needed in the "brave new world".

Indeed, if the Government is going to push forward with removing the F****a S*****s from the 80x as they seem to be suggesting they might, that's a ready supply of reasonable-ish 2+2 armrest-fitted seats to put in the 700s - being a regional seat, they are ideal for a regional train such as that. But that might of course not happen and there are many options with varying merits perhaps more befitting of a speculative thread.

 

[bramling]

By doing a main line journey - like from London to the South coast.



Yes, and people are really going to wait around for half an hour just to get that twenty minute faster express service.

Meanwhile, in the real world, the majority will just catch the next reasonably fast train to Cambridge.

Cambridge passengers most certainly do use the slower services, they always have done. Some simply turn up at Cambridge and board the first London service. Some go for the slower services because the train will be waiting in the platform, rather than coming from Kings Lynn or Ely. Some actively choose the slower service to get pick of the seats. Whilst some opt for Thameslink because it goes to places other than King’s across.

The dynamic has no doubt altered slightly since Thameslink arrived, but it happened before and still does.

It was actually a bit of a bugbear in the old days, as Cambridge passengers would board the XX27 semi-fast rather than wait until the XX45, with the London arrival times being roughly the same. In 4-car days this was a pain, as it essentially crowded out the semi-fast service to the detriment of people from the intermediate stations, for whom the service was really intended.

 

[yorksrob]

Cambridge and Brighton are a similar distance from London and have a choice of services which vary from fast (1 / 2 stops), to semi-fast (half a dozen stops) to stoppers. You make a choice about which to travel on.

Arguing all should have stock of the same type or same basic features is a nonsense to pretty much everyone except you it seems. The 700s cover the services where you have the most people i.e the semi fasts and stoppers, which because they stop at many stations en-route, means you have to accommodate more people.

The timetabling is *usually* that the fasts are sent so they don't get delayed by the stoppers - at Kings Cross they used to advertise the stoppers as Foxton so as to avoid people having a slower journey. And if you're that bothered about the rolling stock you get - which let's be fair is a disproportionate number of people on this board and is probably no casual travellers - then you'll know which services to aim for.

Once again, we've got angels dancing on the heads of pins over the marginal and edge case examples you and others seem to find to peddle to meet your objections. It never ceases to amaze me that you *always* seem to manage to use the trains which you don't like - do you spend every working hour conjuring up random days out on trains you don't like in order to come on here and rant about them ?

Arguing that trains designed to run main line services such as London Brighton/Cambridge shouldn't have up to date facilities for main line services because all passengers will magically know to avoid the train in platform 1 because it has only been specified for shorter journeys and that they should wait for the express, is fantasy land I'm afraid.

 

[AM9]

Arguing that trains designed to run main line services such as London Brighton/Cambridge shouldn't have up to date facilities for main line services because all passengers will magically know to avoid the train in platform 1 because it has only been specified for shorter journeys and that they should wait for the express, is fantasy land I'm afraid.

Clearly it isn't otherwise this thread wouldn't be on its 159th post.

 

[Ianno87]

Cambridge passengers most certainly do use the slower services, they always have done. Some simply turn up at Cambridge and board the first London service. Some go for the slower services because the train will be waiting in the platform, rather than coming from Kings Lynn or Ely. Some actively choose the slower service to get pick of the seats. Whilst some opt for Thameslink because it goes to places other than King’s across.

The dynamic has no doubt altered slightly since Thameslink arrived, but it happened before and still does.

It was actually a bit of a bugbear in the old days, as Cambridge passengers would board the XX27 semi-fast rather than wait until the XX45, with the London arrival times being roughly the same. In 4-car days this was a pain, as it essentially crowded out the semi-fast service to the detriment of people from the intermediate stations, for whom the service was really intended.

You get a few people who wander onto the semi-fast or stoppers, but the "gravitational pull" is certainly still towards the Fast services; helped by the familiar destination of "King's Cross" on the departure board (and the memorable about-quarter-past and about-quarter-to departure times from both ends).

 

[A0]

Arguing that trains designed to run main line services such as London Brighton/Cambridge shouldn't have up to date facilities for main line services because all passengers will magically know to avoid the train in platform 1 because it has only been specified for shorter journeys and that they should wait for the express, is fantasy land I'm afraid.

Neither Brighton nor Cambridge are 'mainline' destinations in the way that Norwich, Birmingham or many others are.

Cambridge has a population of about 125k - that's only slightly higher than Bedford where the overwhelming majority of services are provided using 700s.

 

[Ianno87]

Arguing that trains designed to run main line services such as London Brighton/Cambridge shouldn't have up to date facilities for main line services because all passengers will magically know to avoid the train in platform 1 because it has only been specified for shorter journeys and that they should wait for the express, is fantasy land I'm afraid.

They do.

Cambridge passengers know that the King's Cross fast trains are the ones with the tables and plug sockets.

Neither Brighton nor Cambridge are 'mainline' destinations in the way that Norwich, Birmingham or many others are.

Cambridge has a population of about 125k - that's only slightly higher than Bedford where the overwhelming majority of services are provided using 700s.

I would say that Cambridge punches well above its population weight when it comes to rail demand.

 

[yorksrob]

Neither Brighton nor Cambridge are 'mainline' destinations in the way that Norwich, Birmingham or many others are.

Cambridge has a population of about 125k - that's only slightly higher than Bedford where the overwhelming majority of services are provided using 700s.

You're confusing "main line" with "InterCity" destinations.

Brighton and Cambridge have always been main line destinations and always will be. Certainly main line enough to justify a table and a plug socket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're confusing "main line" with "InterCity" destinations.

Brighton and Cambridge have always been main line destinations and always will be. Certainly main line enough to justify a table and a plug socket.

And they have those things on their main express trains to London, which Thameslink is not.

 

[infobleep]

The new USB Type C 2.1 spec allows Power Delivery up to 240W (48V * 5A) and this could well remove the need for most wall-wart adapters for consumer electronics. People will get used to being able to rapid charge their phone or laptop using just the cable. That is, if wireless charging hasn't also gone to the step above and most people never plug their phones in at all.

The 700 fleet might be one of the first to undergo a mid-life refit to fit all this shiny new tech, at which point the complaint is that older trains require people to lug around more stuff. All those USB charging points might exist today but they're limited to maybe 10W a piece, which will seem like a waste of time when people are used to rapid charging their phones. IIRC, all of these points have legacy USB-B ports, which are also slowly disappearing from the consumer world.

If technology is continually improving, and installing it in a train causes it to be snapshotted for a decade or so, then there will always be trains that look out of date. It just happens that the 700 fleet specification was frozen before the most recent technological shifts.

Good points well made. I'd tried charging my high-end smartphone first released in Summer 2018 and the train isn't fast enough so I use my large portable battery charger.

I have a large heavier one as it lasts longer before it needs to be recharged

 

[Robertj21a]

Neither Brighton nor Cambridge are 'mainline' destinations in the way that Norwich, Birmingham or many others are.

Cambridge has a population of about 125k - that's only slightly higher than Bedford where the overwhelming majority of services are provided using 700s.

So, Brighton isn't a mainline station......

Have you told them?

 

[Horizon22]

The 700s didn't just replace 319s

Even on the "legacy" Thameslink route, a lot of the services were operated by 377s and 387s.

True, but for where they did replace 319s, a big improvement. This was the fundamental problem with replacing the whole fleet with one type. Operationally convenient for the core and no doubt maintenance & training but somewhat subjects all users to the same standard.

 

[A0]

You're confusing "main line" with "InterCity" destinations.

Brighton and Cambridge have always been main line destinations and always will be. Certainly main line enough to justify a table and a plug socket.

Go on then - humour me. What do you define as a 'mainline' destination and how does that differ from an 'Inter City' destination ?

Because the 'mainline' terminology isn't one I've necessarily seen used. And where Cambridge is concerned the GN services are technically 'branch line' because the 'mainline' heads to Huntingdon and Peterborough. In that sense the 'mainline' services are those to Liverpool St.

 

[CBlue]

Go on then - humour me. What do you define as a 'mainline' destination and how does that differ from an 'Inter City' destination ?

Because the 'mainline' terminology isn't one I've necessarily seen used. And where Cambridge is concerned the GN services are technically 'branch line' because the 'mainline' heads to Huntingdon and Peterborough. In that sense the 'mainline' services are those to Liverpool St.

Spurious terms like intercity and mainline don't mean much.

Can't imagine there would be much demand for a tea trolley on that 50 minute fast between Cambridge and Kings X....

 

[A0]

Spurious terms like intercity and mainline don't mean much.

Can't imagine there would be much demand for a tea trolley on that 50 minute fast between Cambridge and Kings X....

I think 'Inter City' does - because people still understand that as the long-distance services linking, for example, London - Leeds, London - Birmingham, London - Manchester, London - Cardiff and so on.

Mainline doesn't mean anything, nor is it a term that's ever been widely used except in the context of mainline vs branchline.

Agree on catering - though some seem to think it should have a trolley service or similar. I suspect if the TOCs thought there was money in it, they do it. That they don't tells you all you need to know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Spurious terms like intercity and mainline don't mean much.

Can't imagine there would be much demand for a tea trolley on that 50 minute fast between Cambridge and Kings X....

I think the move to wanting premium coffees basically killed the trolley. If you want one from Cambridge to London, you'll buy it before you board.

 

[yorksrob]

Go on then - humour me. What do you define as a 'mainline' destination and how does that differ from an 'Inter City' destination ?

Because the 'mainline' terminology isn't one I've necessarily seen used. And where Cambridge is concerned the GN services are technically 'branch line' because the 'mainline' heads to Huntingdon and Peterborough. In that sense the 'mainline' services are those to Liverpool St.

Brighton, like Cambridge is a large destination station in its own right which has many train services focused on it, but which doesn't happen to be served by the longer distance Inter-City type services.

It's laughable that this even has to be articulated just to counter someones bizarre justification for a lack of on-train facilities.

 

[A0]

Brighton, like Cambridge is a large destination station in its own right which has many train services focused on it, but which doesn't happen to be served by the longer distance Inter-City type services.

It's laughable that this even has to be articulated just to counter someones bizarre justification for a lack of on-train facilities.

So Aylesbury? Ely ? Sleaford? Northampton ?

All would seem to meet your criteria.

It has to be "justified" because it's not a commonly used term and not a term used by the rail network in general.

And your definitions have been known to be somewhat different to the normally accepted ones.

 

[Ianno87]

I think the move to wanting premium coffees basically killed the trolley. If you want one from Cambridge to London, you'll buy it before you board.

Of which there are at least 11 purveyors of coffee within the station or immediately outside.

 

[CBlue]

Of which there are at least 11 purveyors of coffee within the station or immediately outside.

You can bet you'd get a better and cheaper coffee than any on-board offering, too.

Things have generally moved on a lot with regards to station facilities!

 

[yorksrob]

So Aylesbury? Ely ? Sleaford? Northampton ?

All would seem to meet your criteria.

It has to be "justified" because it's not a commonly used term and not a term used by the rail network in general.

And your definitions have been known to be somewhat different to the normally accepted ones.

I doubt they're as big as Brighton or Cambridge in terms of being destination stations in their own right, but they're probably mainline enough to justify sockets and tables.

The resorts and towns served by the main lines in Kent (where the term "main line" is used in timetables BTW) together justify term, although to be fair, their electrostars actually have the excuse of genuinely being specified in the pre-electronic device era, not to have sockets.

 

[Minstral25]

Yes they did. The 700s replaced the 319s with more to allow the expansion of through the core services to other destinations. The 377s and 387s were loaned because the rapid increase in passenger numbers meant that the running of peak services comprising a single four-car unit was totally inadequate and bordering on dangerous in terms of overcrowding.

Before the 700’s our 4 trains per hour all day to London Bridge were Southern 377’s exclusively. We had just 3 Thameslink services a day which were always 319s.

so yes the 700s replaced 377s directly along our line

 

[Islineclear3_1]

They do.

I would say that Cambridge punches well above its population weight when it comes to rail demand.

Same with Brighton which has a population of over 230,000. And it certainly is a "mainline" destination

 

[Robertj21a]

So Aylesbury? Ely ? Sleaford? Northampton ?

All would seem to meet your criteria.

It has to be "justified" because it's not a commonly used term and not a term used by the rail network in general.

And your definitions have been known to be somewhat different to the normally accepted ones.

Brighton (& Hove) and Cambridge are cities. Would you care to confirm when Sleaford (for example) became one?