Thameslink Class 700 - lack of USB/power facilities

[mmh]

No one has said, or believes that.

Realtime Trains - 9S56 1912 Brighton to Cambridge

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

29 minutes....



... You said it!

If you believe that "London" means "first London station you reach." I thought the whole point of Thameslink, or the one used to sell its worth, is that it means that's not the case.

 

[A0]

I must say, I thoroughly struggle to see how anyone can find a 700 anything other than, in almost all respects, the worst EMU to have graced the network in the last 15+ years, in terms of customer environment. The interior spec is spartan at best and has all the ambiance of a hospital waiting room (seats of similar comfort). The ride is poor, the omissions glaring.

The lack of USB/WiFi provisions is, frankly, appalling. For a unit designed to serve the capital and in some cases be the grand "welcome to Britain" for travellers arriving at Londons secondary/tertiary airports, its ridiculous that they fail to provide facilities you routinely find on buses. Customers, rightly, shouldn't and dont care what the reasons for this may be, they simply notice the poor provisions on board.

Lots of personal opinion there - I'd say the worst EMUs to grace the rail network were the 319s - which I found to be noisy and uncomfortable from Day 1 - and they've not improved with age.

The 700s are fine - and I'd rather travel on one of those than a 319, 321. They're no different to the 350/2s in many ways having travelled on both - apart from the fact the 700s feel more spacious, which when you have a load of standing passengers is an advantage.

I'll give you a full house on the B-S bingo board though for throwing in overseas visitors arriving at Gatwick or Luton getting on them and being unimpressed, that's an example nobody else has thought of so well done you. Never ceases to amaze me the marginal examples people manage to find to peddle on these boards.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Life's too short to be moaning about lack of this, lack of that... for me, I would rather a train turn up on time to get me from A to B ...even a 313 or pacer. One makes allowances and is prepared. I am fed up of the nanny state society who expect everything to be provided for them.

Yes USB charging would be nice, but...then so would a buffet car or table service or a friendly guard to wake me up at my station if I fall asleep

 

[Minstral25]

I haven’t travelled on every unit type but for me the 700s are the worst train I have ever travelled on with possible exception of 319’s. Almost every journey I have used on one has been over 30 minutes. Where I live that is likely for the thousands who travel London bound on them every day.

To keep quoting the average journey on them is less than 30 minutes is an insult to these thousands of travellers who have to use them daily for more than this. For them these trains are truly awful.

Having WiFi on these journeys should be a norm not a fluke based on which unit turns up. Having leg room would also be good - can’t wait for them to be due an update in about 10 years time

 

[Steve Harris]

One thing I’ve found is that my journey times are now longer due to Thameslink. Going from Cambridge/St. Neots to London is just under an hour. But now I’m no longer alighting at KGX and I’m heading direct to Croydon or London Bridge it means that actually my journey is over an hour. Not a criticism, but just because the first ‘London’ station is under an hour from my station doesn’t mean I’m getting off there.

Good point, well presented.

 

[Ianno87]

Good point, well presented.

Though one might argue that's just shortened the time between home and office/wherever, where charging facilities can be accessed at either end.

 

[Steve Harris]

Though one might argue that's just shortened the time between home and office/wherever, where charging facilities can be accessed at either end.

But as previously pointed out, the first London station maybe sub 1 hour but the actual London station your travelling to is over an hour.

I keep hearing this "average journey time is 30 mins" line. The thing is.. what average is it ? Mean, Median or Mode ?? Becuase the answer for one of those could be 30 mins, but the answer for another could be 65 mins but there both " averages" !!!!

 

[jon0844]

USB-C is now the standard, and as has been said it can now provide over 200W which will rapid charge any phone, tablet or laptop. [I suspect the railway will adopt a version of Power Delivery somewhere between 18W and 200+W on the basis of cost and perceived need].

By the time the 700s get a mid-life refresh, I am sure USB-C PD (which is backwardly compatible) will be fitted - perhaps even in a better position (like the back of the seats, which may also get tables on all the ones that currently don't have them) given the small size.

Apple will have fully switched, and even now a power-efficient laptop (like something running Apple's M1 chip) can easily last a full working day - like a MacBook Pro giving 9 hours screen on time and still hovering around 40-50% battery - and that's a SoC with Intel i7/i9 like performance - so capable of doing everything people need. Intel needs to buck up its ideas, but new power-efficient chipsets will come to PCs in the next year or two.

With phone batteries also allowing all-day performance, and Apple offering a special transit mode that allows the phone to keep a power reserve precisely to allow use for travel even if the phone has (technically) run out of juice, we'll likely reach a scenario where people will have fast charging on tap, but not actually want or need it.

For now, I'd say get a decent power bank. I have many, and some can charge 65W which will get a phone from 0-100% in around 30 minutes, and give a sizeable boost to any laptop. There are some power banks coming that will output at 120/125W, and this will mean you could have your laptop charging in a backpack, meaning you don't need to wait until you're on the train to charge it. But, as I said above, laptops in 2022/2023 onwards won't need charging even if you're rendering video, doing CAD and other complex power-hungry work, or possibly even gaming.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though one might argue that's just shortened the time between home and office/wherever, where charging facilities can be accessed at either end.

And if your phone or laptop battery genuinely won't do an hour, you need to replace it. My previous laptop was a dirt cheap HP, cost me about £400, and the battery lasted a good 4-5 hours. Most newer phones will do a full day of reasonable usage.

 

[jon0844]

Having WiFi on these journeys should be a norm not a fluke based on which unit turns up. Having leg room would also be good - can’t wait for them to be due an update in about 10 years time

With unlimited data plans now available from all the main operators, why would you want to use a shared connection that will be heavily throttled and also restrict access to many services (streaming services, cloud based servers and so on) without the need for a VPN that will likely reduce the throughput still further?

The one benefit is an external antenna on the train to get a better pickup of a mobile signal (and using more than one carrier) but in reality, the 700s have nice big windows and don't block the signal to any great degree. As such, you have the ability to tether you phone and get speeds in excess of 500-600Mbps in 5G locations and 50-200Mbps on 4G.

As phone networks continue to extend coverage for railways, including a change in that Network Rail seems more willing to work with companies to provide lineside coverage, Wi-Fi becomes less and less important as every year goes on.

I'd imagine lots of new(ish) cars have USB chargers inside for the convenience of driver and passengers

They do, but I think whenever I've looked they've been pretty slow. Even the wireless chargers are likely limited to 5 or 10W, with 15W being quite rare.

I have a phone with a 55W wireless charger, which gets my phone from 0-100% in about 50 minutes. Soon there will be wireless chargers doing 100W and above, and it might become a thing to have these embedded in tables (this has been trialled on some trains, although when I was on a SWT with them they didn't work!).

Agreed. Power banks are so cheap that the answer to any mobile phone low battery issue is just "get a power bank".

Laptops are different, but with its large number of airline seats at a very tight pitch and no tables 700 Standard isn't suitable for laptop use anyway.

I am sure many employees are using company issued laptops running very inefficient Intel chipsets, and many not having USB-C, but times are changing and most new computers will have USB-C with PD (even if they have a proprietary connector too, for backward compatibility for business customers) and you can get many brands of power bank that can fast charge a laptop just like a phone.

I have no doubt power will be provided for all seats when the 700s get a refresh, and chances are the 717s will get more charging ports too (rather than one for every two seats) but as time goes on, they really won't be considered that necessary for a large percentage of users. As such, I can't see the DfT retrofitting anything for a few years yet.

 

[bramling]

Though one might argue that's just shortened the time between home and office/wherever, where charging facilities can be accessed at either end.

Are we now saying the “average” journey on a 700 is directly between two locations which have charging facilities?

Part of the reason I would actually find the facility useful is because quite often my journey might well be starting with not having had any convenient access to power for a while.

 

[Royston Vasey]

What are our industry insiders' views of whether a seat back table for our coffee cup is an unconscionable modern luxury and cost, that we don't deserve to expect for our 29 minute average journey times?

 

[AM9]

... Out of interest, when using declassified first, have you ever made use of the plug sockets? A simple yes or no will suffice just fine...

In a word, No!
To be honest I've only ever used on board power on any trains on one return journey, - that was in 2019 when I travelled from St Albans to Sheffield to meet a couple of fellow RUK members. The reason why I used the power was because I wanted to check arrival times with the others as they were delayed owing to the problem with the Walley Bridge dam resulting in the suspension of services on the Dore & Chinley route. Unfortunately the Class 222 Meridian trains have the dreaded metallic film on the windows causing my phone to continuously stay on high power trying to keep connected to each base station along the route. I knew this to be a problem so I tookd a portable charger with me, but as there were power points available, I used them to avoid having to dig to the bottom of my bags. So there you are, I've used on board power, but had it not been there I was prepared to use the charger that I had brought along expressly for that purpose.

 

[driverd]

No one has said, or believes that.

Realtime Trains - 9S56 1912 Brighton to Cambridge

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

29 minutes....



... You said it!

1st point - multiple people have stated exactly that, have a read through pages 1 & 2 again.

2nd point - You've just picked the fastest train to the first London station. Take one via Redhill to St Pancras. If you averaged it across London stations, its probably around 40 minutes.

3rd point - not sure what you're getting at.

(Apologies - I'm not able/aware of how I copy my original post into the quote function using a mobile).

 

[Mikey C]

If you think the presence or absence of a USB charging point is going to sway somebody between driving and taking the train, then I think you are, at best, deluded.

All the little extras have an accumulative effect though, for discretionary passengers. Hence why bus companies boast about high backed seats, WiFi, USB chargers etc and promote it, such as on the front of this Arriva Sapphire bus

YX17NKP Arriva Yorkshire 1965

Explore martin 65's 13680 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[jon0844]

I don't think I have ever seen anyone charging a device on a bus. I tried it once, for novelty value, and think it was 5V 1A output (5W) which is ridiculously slow.

I have tried the Wi-Fi on much the same basis and this wasn't bad, but as I said above, my phone has a faster connection direct to the mobile network.

More and more buses advertise it though. I think the Wi-Fi is a bonus offering for using the Ticketer machines but I think I've seen Icomera equipment as used on trains.

The wiring for the USB ports was visible though some lighting vents on an old bus retrofitted, which is not the sort of install you could ever do for a train.

 

[Elshad]

I don't think I have ever seen anyone charging a device on a bus. I tried it once, for novelty value, and think it was 5V 1A output (5W) which is ridiculously slow.

Don’t wish to go too far off topic but one of the USB ports on one of the electric Enviro200 MMCs on the 521 severely damaged my previous iPhone. It fried a component (Tristar IC chip) which left it unable to take any charge and had to have the chip replaced.

I was able to narrow down the exact moment it stopped taking charge to the moment I plugged it in on the bus.

 

[jon0844]

Don’t wish to go too far off topic but one of the USB ports on one of the electric Enviro200 MMCs on the 521 severely damaged my previous iPhone. It fried a component (Tristar IC chip) which left it unable to take any charge and had to have the chip replaced.

I was able to narrow down the exact moment it stopped taking charge to the moment I plugged it in on the bus.

After I saw the retrofit wiring, I have to say I'm not surprised. I'm sure new buses come with the wiring done properly, but I'd be wary of older buses getting power to try and entice more people to travel.

For the longer distance buses and coaches I can see people seeing some value, but when our local buses now have USB sockets I do wonder why anyone would care. If anything, people would likely say they'd rather pay less than have Wi-Fi or power!

To steer myself back on topic, I will say again that I think the 700s will get power at all seats, and tables and Wi-Fi where not already installed, when they get a refresh.

 

[driverd]

Lots of personal opinion there - I'd say the worst EMUs to grace the rail network were the 319s - which I found to be noisy and uncomfortable from Day 1 - and they've not improved with age.

The 700s are fine - and I'd rather travel on one of those than a 319, 321. They're no different to the 350/2s in many ways having travelled on both - apart from the fact the 700s feel more spacious, which when you have a load of standing passengers is an advantage.

I'll give you a full house on the B-S bingo board though for throwing in overseas visitors arriving at Gatwick or Luton getting on them and being unimpressed, that's an example nobody else has thought of so well done you. Never ceases to amaze me the marginal examples people manage to find to peddle on these boards.

On the first note, you're absolutely correct and I should clarify that statement - new build unit of the last 15 years. I entirely agree that the 319s weren't good (aside from the 319/2s, really appreciated the refurb, just far too few of them).

I do broadly agree on the 350/2 comparison, the only point I'm trying to make is that the 350/2 is almost 10 years older. In that regard I can give it some leeway for not having the latest tech and being of a time. I find it less excusable with a more modern train (it's not as though phones and WiFi were a new thing in 2015).

I don't think your final point is entirely fair. After a long flight, whether you're from the UK or visiting, basic things such as Internet access and the ability to charge your phone can be a godsend on the 40 or so minutes you get to prepare yourself before being thrust into the metropolis of London. Be it topping up the battery to help you find your hotel, finalising the route you need around the capital on Google maps, understand the tube connections or ordering an uber; whoever you are, I don't think it's unfair to say that sort of connectivity can be really vital for making a journey more comfortable and enjoyable. You may well disagree but I just think it's a very glaring omission.

 

[Horizon22]

I haven’t travelled on every unit type but for me the 700s are the worst train I have ever travelled on with possible exception of 319’s. Almost every journey I have used on one has been over 30 minutes. Where I live that is likely for the thousands who travel London bound on them every day.

To keep quoting the average journey on them is less than 30 minutes is an insult to these thousands of travellers who have to use them daily for more than this. For them these trains are truly awful.

Having WiFi on these journeys should be a norm not a fluke based on which unit turns up. Having leg room would also be good - can’t wait for them to be due an update in about 10 years time

And of course that's what 700s replaced. When I was living in St Albans and then N. London I couldn't wait to have 700s finally replace the creaky 319s that couldn't deal with the dwells and passenger loads they had to handle and were cramped and felt decades old. Whether the fact that 319s were generally not good, and therefore the 700s were marked up against them is debatable of course.

 

[Aictos]

For now, I'd say get a decent power bank. I have many, and some can charge 65W which will get a phone from 0-100% in around 30 minutes, and give a sizeable boost to any laptop. There are some power banks coming that will output at 120/125W, and this will mean you could have your laptop charging in a backpack, meaning you don't need to wait until you're on the train to charge it. But, as I said above, laptops in 2022/2023 onwards won't need charging even if you're rendering video, doing CAD and other complex power-hungry work, or possibly even gaming.

Not all mobile phones can take advantage of such high outputs though, some are limited to 15w which means even if you plugged it into a a power bank that can charge at 65w, the electric limits of the mobile phone means it will only take 15w plus some phones are faster at charging then others because not all phones are equal.

Regardless of power banks, the Class 717s are used on metro services which got power sockets so I can't see why standard class in the Class 700s couldn't have had them in a minor refurbishment.

 

[yorksrob]

Lots of personal opinion there - I'd say the worst EMUs to grace the rail network were the 319s - which I found to be noisy and uncomfortable from Day 1 - and they've not improved with age.

The 700s are fine - and I'd rather travel on one of those than a 319, 321. They're no different to the 350/2s in many ways having travelled on both - apart from the fact the 700s feel more spacious, which when you have a load of standing passengers is an advantage.

I'll give you a full house on the B-S bingo board though for throwing in overseas visitors arriving at Gatwick or Luton getting on them and being unimpressed, that's an example nobody else has thought of so well done you. Never ceases to amaze me the marginal examples people manage to find to peddle on these boards.

My goodness, it's amazing the mental contortions some people will put themselves through to justify putting suburban spec trains on a flagship mainline service such as London - Brighton, which was always going to attract large numbers of coast bount travellers requiring main line facilities.

 

[Ianno87]

My goodness, it's amazing the mental contortions some people will put themselves through to justify putting suburban spec trains on a flagship mainline service such as London - Brighton, which was always going to attract large numbers of coast bount travellers requiring main line facilities.

They don't "require main line facilities" though. They just want a train with plenty of seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My goodness, it's amazing the mental contortions some people will put themselves through to justify putting suburban spec trains on a flagship mainline service such as London - Brighton, which was always going to attract large numbers of coast bount travellers requiring main line facilities.

It isn't the Brighton Express and never was. That has Electrostars.

 

[Ianno87]

If we're going for "main line facilities", why not a buffet car too? Seat reservations? Etc etc etc.

 

[yorksrob]

They don't "require main line facilities" though. They just want a train with plenty of seats.

It isn't the Brighton Express and never was. That has Electrostars.

I'm afraid that the stopping pattern, coupled with the service frequency, coupled with the range of central London destinations served, means that Thameslink services will be used as a main line service from London to the coast by many people. That is the reality, and similar is probably true for the other end to Cambridge.

Pretending otherwise is silly.

If we're going for "main line facilities", why not a buffet car too? Seat reservations? Etc etc etc.

A trolley serving hot drinks might be worthwhile.

 

[JonathanH]

2nd point - You've just picked the fastest train to the first London station. Take one via Redhill to St Pancras. If you averaged it across London stations, its probably around 40 minutes.

There really isn't any reason to use a train via Redhill when travelling from Gatwick to London. Very few people will do so given the frequency of the direct service.

A trolley serving hot drinks might be worthwhile.

There is a good reason that Brighton trains don't have a trolley - the journey is too short to make it viable - the reduction in catering over the years is almost certainly due to lack of interest from passengers.

I'm afraid that the stopping pattern, coupled with the service frequency, coupled with the range of central London destinations served, means that Thameslink services will be used as a main line service from London to the coast by many people. That is the reality, and similar is probably true for the other end to Cambridge.

How does someone use a train 'as a main line service' as opposed to just looking up the timetable and boarding it?

 

[A0]

I'm afraid that the stopping pattern, coupled with the service frequency, coupled with the range of central London destinations served, means that Thameslink services will be used as a main line service from London to the coast by many people. That is the reality, and similar is probably true for the other end to Cambridge.

Another poor example.

The 700 services to Cambridge are the stoppers, the "mainline" service is the Cambridge Express which also uses Electrostars.

Example journey times:

Cambridge Express to Kings X (Electrostar) - circa 50 mins.

Cambridge "fast" (non stop Stevenage - Finsbury Pk) to St Pancras (700) - 1h 05m

Cambridge - Liverpool St ~ 1h 20m.

Cambridge stopper (outer stops Stevenage - Finsbury Pk) 1h 30m.

So even the "fastest" 700 service is more than 20% slower than the genuine 'fastest'.

 

[yorksrob]

There really isn't any reason to use a train via Redhill when travelling from Gatwick to London. Very few people will do so given the frequency of the direct service.


There is a good reason that Brighton trains don't have a trolley - the journey is too short to make it viable - the reduction in catering over the years is almost certainly due to lack of interest from passengers.


How does someone use a train 'as a main line service' as opposed to just looking up the timetable and boarding it?

By doing a main line journey - like from London to the South coast.

Another poor example.

The 700 services to Cambridge are the stoppers, the "mainline" service is the Cambridge Express which also uses Electrostars.

Example journey times:

Cambridge Express to Kings X (Electrostar) - circa 50 mins.

Cambridge "fast" (non stop Stevenage - Finsbury Pk) to St Pancras (700) - 1h 05m

Cambridge - Liverpool St ~ 1h 20m.

Cambridge stopper (outer stops Stevenage - Finsbury Pk) 1h 30m.

So even the "fastest" 700 service is more than 20% slower than the genuine 'fastest'.

Yes, and people are really going to wait around for half an hour just to get that twenty minute faster express service.

Meanwhile, in the real world, the majority will just catch the next reasonably fast train to Cambridge.

 

[driverd]

There really isn't any reason to use a train via Redhill when travelling from Gatwick to London. Very few people will do so given the frequency of the direct service.

I've used it on a number of occasions. If journey planners spit that one out as the best connection, I'll generally use it. I think it depends a lot on time of day/day of week etc. Must have just been unlucky. Just had a quick look on RTT and the average journey time across all the core London stations is 37 minutes (for a fast from Gatwick). I'll back up on my "just under an hour" comment - clearly I'm wrong there, and it's a poor example. Other examples of longer journeys do, however, exist and have been put forwards by other users. Even Redhill to the core (at average 48 mins), is getting a little long for a train with minimal facilities.

Another poor example.

The 700 services to Cambridge are the stoppers, the "mainline" service is the Cambridge Express which also uses Electrostars.

Example journey times:

Cambridge Express to Kings X (Electrostar) - circa 50 mins.

Cambridge "fast" (non stop Stevenage - Finsbury Pk) to St Pancras (700) - 1h 05m

Cambridge - Liverpool St ~ 1h 20m.

Cambridge stopper (outer stops Stevenage - Finsbury Pk) 1h 30m.

So even the "fastest" 700 service is more than 20% slower than the genuine 'fastest'.

The problem with these examples though is destination station also. I'm sure there will be plenty of people who use the 700s for connectivity reasons, because the core stations are more convenient and quicker than taking a train to KGX and using the tube. I don't think it's fair to call it a poor example.

Yes, and people are really going to wait around for half an hour just to get that twenty minute faster express service.

Meanwhile, in the real world, the majority will just catch the next reasonably fast train to Cambridge.

Exactly.