Thameslink Class 700 - lack of USB/power facilities

[Dr Hoo]

One aspect that seems to have been missed is the whole concept of 'helping someone' (not in any DfT specification, I admit).

I am one of those cautious types who always carries a charger and a couple of cables (Apple and Samsung). I have often been on trains when people have needed to make an urgent call or they find that their phone is dead when a ticket inspection happens.

Have other posters not been in the situation where someone politely asks, "Excuse me, my phone's dead, does anyone have a charger"? (and then has several offers of assistance). This sort of thing also seems to be quite common with non-English speakers but an anguished expression on the face and frantic uttering of "iPhone, iPhone" or "Samsung, Samsung" has the same effect.

Happy bunnies all round.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Ok... so why not charge it up wherever else you’re going to be? The restaurant, pub, theatre, sports arena, concert arena, etc etc. Because they don’t have them. Why should the train have to provide it and not these other places?

Time spent travelling is essentially dead time. If you could halve your train journey time, you would. You wouldn't probably want to halve the amount of time you spend in the restaurant, pub, theatre, sports or concert arena. Now that people fill their dead time with entertainment from their portable communications and entertainment device (something named after a pretty vestigial feature - phone calls) they value the ability to charge it up and keep it going. Many of the more advanced features of a phone will drain the battery pretty quickly, so having a charger is actually critical for being able to use these features for any length of time during the day.

In any case, casual cafes and eateries actually are installing charging points as well for similar reasons. If you're expecting to scroll through your social media feeds while eating your lunch at McDonald's then being able to charge is pretty useful.

New cars often come with built-in USB charging points for all seats, because it's now unusual for kids to not have a tablet or other device to keep them entertained on long journeys. For £50 you can get a basic Amazon Fire tablet which can be loaded up with Netflix. Many cars even have built-in WiFi too; the new E-Call requirements for cars to alert authorities if there's a collision mean it's not much harder to fit the other parts of a basic smartphone SoC and provide a WiFi hotspot (possibly paid by subscription) through the 4G connection as well.

As I said upthread, I don't blame anyone for the 700 fleet not being fitted with sockets and WiFi. It just happens that some fairly large commuter train orders were planned before these features became standard. There's always going to be some last new fleet to not have some new essential feature.

 

[bramling]

Indeed - and that reason is that they were specified very recently for the refurbishment that is happening now. Class 700s were specified well over a decade ago and aren’t due for refurb anytime soon.




Ok... so why not charge it up wherever else you’re going to be? The restaurant, pub, theatre, sports arena, concert arena, etc etc. Because they don’t have them. Why should the train have to provide it and not these other places?

To turn that on its head, why *shouldn’t* the train have them? So far the only real reasons given seem to be that (i) they might fail in which case this looks bad, and, (ii) other places don’t have them.

The “why should we have X” can be applied to many different things. There’s designs of train which don’t have toilets - Brighton to Portsmouth on a 313 is longer than many Thameslink journeys, so why did anyone bother putting toilets in 700s, in fact getting rid of them would create some extra capacity which we were told was so vitally important on these trains?

It isn’t a *massive* issue. I own two BMWs - the new one has a built-in sat nav and a USB charger, the old one doesn’t. Whilst I don’t miss them when I use the old one, the features have come in handy on occasions on the new one. Given that I generally find the older car handles better and is more comfortable (hmm, quite relevant to 700s!), it’s good that the new one does have some features which represent something that is an improvement in the intervening 20 years.

In essence it’s remiss the 700s don’t have sockets, essentially given their user profile.

 

[Ianno87]

To turn that on its head, why *shouldn’t* the train have them? So far the only real reasons given seem to be that (i) they might fail in which case this looks bad, and, (ii) other places don’t have them.

To state the obvious (iii) They cost money.

Presumably the cost of retrofitting them now is orders of magnitude higher than if they'd included them in the original spec (which as @Bald Rick notes, was set many years ago before plug sockets on commuter trains were "normal")

 

[skyhigh]

However, the comment in #46 about Northern and penalty fares doesn't seem customer friendly. I wonder if there is a more customer friendly way of dealing with someone whose phone has failed?

You wouldn't believe the number of people who've "just run out of charge" when asked to see their ticket. It's simply your responsibility to show your ticket when required to, no battery on your phone is no more an excuse than losing a paper ticket. The aim is for all Northern units to get at least a USB socket during refurb anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

All of these arguments by the industry people defending the lack of facilities on (some of) these trains, are quite tiresome.

It matters not one jot what the average journey time on Thameslink is. The reality is that the units were always going to be used on main line runs such as London to Brighton and were always going to used for main line journeys such as London to Brighton. They should have been specified for such journeys and arguing that black is white isn't going to change that.

 

[bramling]

All of these arguments by the industry people defending the lack of facilities on (some of) these trains, are quite tiresome.

It matters not one jot what the average journey time on Thameslink is. The reality is that the units were always going to be used on main line runs such as London to Brighton and were always going to used for main line journeys such as London to Brighton. They should have been specified for such journeys and arguing that black is white isn't going to change that.

Agreed. The ability to have this feature was clearly there at the time by nature of first class having it, therefore one can only assume that declining to provide it in standard was a deliberate decision that it wasn’t necessary. One can only conclude that this was a misjudgement.

Someone decided not to specify it, and the consequence of that decision is probably going to be a more expensive retrofit at some point, though when that might be is anyone’s guess.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed. The ability to have this feature was clearly there at the time by nature of first class having it, therefore one can only assume that declining to provide it in standard was a deliberate decision that it wasn’t necessary. One can only conclude that this was a misjudgement.

Someone decided not to specify it, and the consequence of that decision is probably going to be a more expensive retrofit at some point, though when that might be is anyone’s guess.

Indeed. I recently made similar observations about a lack of seat back tables on the forum.

 

[JonathanH]

To be honest, the arguments by people on this forum about the supposed lack of facilities on these trains are equally unnecessary. Most users just accept what they are which is an extremely efficient people mover - you only need to board one at London Bridge to see that.

Tomorrow, 21 June, is the fifth anniversary of me taking my first ride on a Class 700 and I have done so 583 times since, some short journeys and some longer (Bedford to East Croydon being my longest). They do their job really well, mixing in efficiently on the main lines with long distance trains. The majority of people board the trains (quickly) and get on with their journey. They aren't the most luxurious of trains but they don't need to be - they get (lots of) people to where they need to be efficiently and with minimal fuss.

It would be interesting to do a study of just how many people actually use the plug sockets (or even seat back tables) on trains which are fitted. Some will but I would guess the majority won't. It would clearly be great if they were fitted but it doesn't make me not use these trains.

Incidentally, the Class 710s on London Overground have USB sockets at the carriage ends - not at every seat - I find that the current from these sockets simply isn't enough to actually charge my phone so the effort seems pointless.

The ability to have this feature was clearly there at the time by nature of first class having it, therefore one can only assume that declining to provide it in standard was a deliberate decision that it wasn’t necessary. One can only conclude that this was a misjudgement.

First class in a 377/4, 377/5, 444, 450, 350/1, 350/2 were all built with plug sockets in first class and not in standard class so not exactly uncommon at the time the units were being specified. It is quite reasonable to have a better specification in first class than in standard class. Admittedly there is one area with plug sockets in standard in a 444 (as built) and many of these do have seat back tables.

 

[physics34]

Anyone who defends the 700 interior for longer distance services is crazy

A previous frequent poster who used to rave about them got so fed up with the criticism he eventually left

 

[Fincra5]

Indeed - and that reason is that they were specified very recently for the refurbishment that is happening now. Class 700s were specified well over a decade ago and aren’t due for refurb anytime soon.




Ok... so why not charge it up wherever else you’re going to be? The restaurant, pub, theatre, sports arena, concert arena, etc etc. Because they don’t have them. Why should the train have to provide it and not these other places?

With respect that's a fairly ridiculous ask... scraping the barrel for why 700s don't have them.

It doesn't have to be a refurb cycle to provide such facilities. Look at the handful that had seat-back tables and WiFi added. When the DFT didn't spec it. Why? Cost. Simple as.

We all know 700s were spec'd for the Core. Yet there's lots who commuted from the Coast to London. Who use laptops and so on to work... might need power (and tables for that matter ...)

377/6 and 7s have plugs for essential metro trains... where the journey is probably also under 30mins

Odd to say everyone should have a battery pack. Even my local buses have USB plugs now. Different needs for different people... from a safety POV it would be ideal for all trains to have USB chargers. So, for example, you only need a cable and still charge for phone if you need to text the BTP...

At the end of the day not everyone is as planned as everyone else, changes can occur... not everyone prepares their day of travel with a battery pack but I bet someone on the train has a charger

 

[johntea]

I appear to have accidentally opened a can of worms with this one

For context I did a Stevenage to Brighton trip which is around 1hr 45min each way...obviously fine on the outward as I fully charged in my hotel but by the time I've spent that journey watching something, then using maps round Brighton all day, ordering drinks through an app and the like then further viewing on the way back I'm a bit low, although I only found out by chance last week you can now actually connect an iPhone up to an iPad with a lightning - USB-C cable and the iPad will happily charge the iPhone so that was a useful alternative

I do agree that USB-C sockets would be more useful these days than the standard USB 5V ones, although the traditional USB is compatible with a lot more devices than just phones

Out of interest (again bear in mind I'm a Northerner!) what exactly is the point in 'first class' sections on these anyway, I doubt the driver is going to be coming down with a tea trolley and I suspect many standard ticket holders just sit in there anyway considering the rarity of revenue inspection showing up (I don't actually think I've ever seen an inspection in several years of trips around the area although station barriers appear to be staffed quite well)

 

[JonathanH]

It seems to me that what people think should operate on Thameslink is something where the interior is pretty much like a class 745, but still with the two sets of doors on each carriage.

Can anyone work out how much more expensive the interiors of a class 745 cost relative to the interior of a class 700? Then we can judge whether the specification really was penny pinching.

 

[AM9]

... First class in a 377/4, 377/5, 444, 450, 350/1, 350/2 were all built with plug sockets in first class and not in standard class so not exactly uncommon at the time the units were being specified. It is quite reasonable to have a better specification in first class than in standard class. Admittedly there is one area with plug sockets in standard in a 444 (as built) and many of these do have seat back tables.

So they are just the spec for similar trains working on the same lines specified at the same time. They will probably get a few cosmetic facilities when they are mid-lifed in about 10-15 years, so those wanting these 'essential' facilites now will have to be patient. Complaining here, in angry rail user groups or to MPs won't make it happen any quicker.

It seems to me that what people think should operate on Thameslink is something where the interior is pretty much like a class 745, but still with the two sets of doors on each carriage.

Can anyone work out how much more expensive the interiors of a class 745 cost relative to the interior of a class 700? Then we can judge whether the specification really was penny pinching.

And at the same time say what the peak capacity with that level of trim would be.

 

[NSE]

One thing I’ve found is that my journey times are now longer due to Thameslink. Going from Cambridge/St. Neots to London is just under an hour. But now I’m no longer alighting at KGX and I’m heading direct to Croydon or London Bridge it means that actually my journey is over an hour. Not a criticism, but just because the first ‘London’ station is under an hour from my station doesn’t mean I’m getting off there.

 

[Ianno87]

To be honest, the arguments by people on this forum about the supposed lack of facilities on these trains are equally unnecessary. Most users just accept what they are which is an extremely efficient people mover - you only need to board one at London Bridge to see that.

Tomorrow, 21 June, is the fifth anniversary of me taking my first ride on a Class 700 and I have done so 583 times since, some short journeys and some longer (Bedford to East Croydon being my longest). They do their job really well, mixing in efficiently on the main lines with long distance trains. The majority of people board the trains (quickly) and get on with their journey. They aren't the most luxurious of trains but they don't need to be - they get (lots of) people to where they need to be efficiently and with minimal fuss.

It would be interesting to do a study of just how many people actually use the plug sockets (or even seat back tables) on trains which are fitted. Some will but I would guess the majority won't. It would clearly be great if they were fitted but it doesn't make me not use these trains.

Incidentally, the Class 710s on London Overground have USB sockets at the carriage ends - not at every seat - I find that the current from these sockets simply isn't enough to actually charge my phone so the effort seems pointless.


First class in a 377/4, 377/5, 444, 450, 350/1, 350/2 were all built with plug sockets in first class and not in standard class so not exactly uncommon at the time the units were being specified. It is quite reasonable to have a better specification in first class than in standard class. Admittedly there is one area with plug sockets in standard in a 444 (as built) and many of these do have seat back tables.

And, rightly or wrongly, a decision was made on plug sockets for the 700s many years ago now, and no amount of bickering in an online forum is going to make plug sockets appear. Move on.

 

[AM9]

One thing I’ve found is that my journey times are now longer due to Thameslink. Going from Cambridge/St. Neots to London is just under an hour. But now I’m no longer alighting at KGX and I’m heading direct to Croydon or London Bridge it means that actually my journey is over an hour. Not a criticism, but just because the first ‘London’ station is under an hour from my station doesn’t mean I’m getting off there.

Are you implying that your total journey time to Croydon is longer? Did you have an opportunity to charge your phone when your journey was broken at Kings Cross?
On the more general topic
, personal anecdotes about individuals' travel patterns don't alter the actual average journey times on TL services, even if some of those are about how short their journeys are.

 

[SteveM70]

And, rightly or wrongly, a decision was made on plug sockets for the 700s many years ago now, and no amount of bickering in an online forum is going to make plug sockets appear. Move on.

If discussing things that are desirable but won’t happen is going to be verboten half this forum would be shut down

 

[AM9]

If discussing things that are desirable but won’t happen is going to be verboten half this forum would be shut down

Nobody is saying that discussions around wish lists are forbidden, but those who wish to state their wishes not being met repeatedly should realise that the 'broken record' tactic doesn't make it happen with those who ultimately will provide facilites.

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyone who defends the 700 interior for longer distance services is crazy

A previous frequent poster who used to rave about them got so fed up with the criticism he eventually left

IIRC the ex-member would also never accept that his employer FCC had a significant role in agreeing the spec with DfT...

 

[NSE]

Are you implying that your total journey time to Croydon is longer? Did you have an opportunity to charge your phone when your journey was broken at Kings Cross?
On the more general topic
, personal anecdotes about individuals' travel patterns don't alter the actual average journey times on TL services, even if some of those are about how short their journeys are.

Not sure why you’re trying to get at me. Note the point where I said ‘its not a criticism’. Personally, I don’t care if they sockets or not. I’m just pointing out that now you can stay on one train it does mean that you are on it for longer, even if the overall journey time is less. So if anything, my point would support plug sockets…

 

[A0wen]

We’ve been here before on this. 30 minutes is irrelevant to someone who uses Thameslink from Hitchin to London, Letchworth to London, Baldock to London, Ashwell to London, Royston to London, Meldreth to London, Shepreth to London, Foxton to London, Cambridge to London, Arlesey to London, Biggleswade to London, Sandy to London, St Neots to London, Huntingdon to London, Welwyn Garden City to London, Welwyn North to London, Knebworth to London.

That’s a lot of real-life journeys, and is just one corner of the Thameslink operation - there’s plenty more such journeys elsewhere, and that’s before we look at those journeys which cross London.

It’s all very well mentioning how places like St Albans can fill endless numbers of 12-car trains for the 20-minute hop to London, however this means absolutely nothing to users from elsewhere. Or are St Albans users special?

Erm - Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross is 29 mins. So you'd better take that one off your list.

The reality is for most of the commuter land - which does include Hitchin, Letchworth - the overall journey time, including the final mile of either a walk, tube or bus is sub 1 hour. And the train is about half of that (Hitchin - St P is 33 mins).

 

[Bald Rick]

With respect that's a fairly ridiculous ask... scraping the barrel for why 700s don't have them.

I don’t think so.

It doesn't have to be a refurb cycle to provide such facilities. Look at the handful that had seat-back tables and WiFi added.

That was from new, not refitting. And the extra cost was astronomical for what it was.

 

[yorksrob]

I don’t think so.




That was from new, not refitting. And the extra cost was astronomical for what it was.

Perhaps that's something to do with how we build and procure trains.

 

[Ianno87]

Perhaps that's something to do with how we build and procure trains.

In any procurement (trains or otherwise), it's much cheaper to build something into the original specification, than vary the contract after it has been signed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps that's something to do with how we build and procure trains.

Probably, and let’s not forget these trains were procured a long time ago!

 

[yorksrob]

In any procurement (trains or otherwise), it's much cheaper to build something into the original specification, than vary the contract after it has been signed.

It's more an observation that when the 158's were built (as an example), they had seat back tables included.

I don't recall @BaldRick or contemporary equivalents sucking their teeth and saying that the cost was astronomical.

 

[bramling]

Erm - Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross is 29 mins. So you'd better take that one off your list.

The reality is for most of the commuter land - which does include Hitchin, Letchworth - the overall journey time, including the final mile of either a walk, tube or bus is sub 1 hour. And the train is about half of that (Hitchin - St P is 33 mins).

Not in the down direction - 32 mins to Welwyn GC is typical in the current timetable (which incidentally compares rather disfavourably to 317s in the 1990s where the typical journey time was 25 minutes).

 

[A0wen]

It's more an observation that when the 158's were built (as an example), they had seat back tables included.

I don't recall @BaldRick or contemporary equivalents sucking their teeth and saying that the cost was astronomical.

The difference being if it was part of the original spec (as it was with the 158s) then it was included in the overall build costs and was probably marginal in terms of materials and labour.

Whereas the cost of retro-fitting something has always been much higher. The same is true if you order a new car and select an option or two - do it as part of the order and the cost is low, do it aftermarket and the cost is much higher.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't recall @BaldRick or contemporary equivalents sucking their teeth and saying that the cost was astronomical.

Because they were specified from the outset. Once you’ve signed the contract, a variation is expensive. When I worked with first tier contractors there was a saying - “variations turn a net loss into a gross profit”