Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[asylumxl]

In my experience the poor ride at Cricklewood is certainly noticed by the Muggles, but only when on a 377 / 387. Less so further north unless it is a particularly soft unit.

The poor ride is reported (by me) when it starts to get consistently worse.

Scratchwood is quite bad too.

I believe it may have even been you who said it was due to "underlying track issues", in that it's literally due to the underpinnings under the track [emoji38].

 

[W230]

The only line where I'd describe ATO as aggressive is the Central, which has an older "all or nothing" system.

It's harsh on the Victoria line too.

From a technical and 700 relevant point. Does ATO have a smooth braking curve ? I've read that it bolts out the station and charges up to a signal and hits the anchor and generally a more aggressive driving style. Does the ATO braking curve adapt to the passenger load ? I know ATO through the core is a long way off.

I've driven the sim under ATO but obviously that gives no real feel to how it'll brake when we go ATO!

 

[physics34]

By coincidence I was on a relatively empty 700 today (perhaps only half full). It was a much worse ride than when there's an extra 1000 people on board. That extra 6 tonnes per coach makes all the difference.

Nobody has mentioned Slammers and their sprung seats.

You got a "bounce" effect on these rather a jerk/pull/bottoming out-effect.... much more impact on the back when seated on newer trains.

My opinion is that suspension has never improved enough to completely eliminate sprung seats which were always a secondary suspension anyway.

377s also have the tendancy to "swing" from side to side aswell which can be quite uncomfortable especially if they "swing" AND "Jerk" at the sametime. They seem to have some kind of horizontal damper on them which doesnt work too well! Not sure what 700s have got.

 

[Class377/5]

The only line where I'd describe ATO as aggressive is the Central, which has an older "all or nothing" system.

The Northern line ATO when introduced as rough as hell with its stop start seesaw power curve. Rough to the point where my head was still hurting after I got off the train and got home.

 

[bramling]

The Northern line ATO when introduced as rough as hell with its stop start seesaw power curve. Rough to the point where my head was still hurting after I got off the train and got home.

The Seltrac system (Jubilee and Northern plus DLR) is pretty horrible, the system is simply designed to achieve a particular target speed, and uses motoring/braking to achieve that. A few tweaks were done to the software after implementation to smooth it out, although it's still pretty rough. Don't equate rough with fast though, some platforms are entered at 22mph where under manual driving they could be entered at 40mph.

The Central and Vic lines are much better in that they 'know' the line (e.g. gradients) so drive the train more competently. The Vic in particular is very aggressive, it's probably the only ATO on LU that a human couldn't meet or even beat.

 

[Domh245]

The Central and Vic lines are much better in that they 'know' the line (e.g. gradients) so drive the train more competently. The Vic in particular is very aggressive, it's probably the only ATO on LU that a human couldn't meet or even beat.

The Vic system also seems to be unable to release the brakes as the train comes to a stop to prevent jerking when stopping (throwing passengers around when stopping). Hopefully the ATO overlay for the Thameslink core has factored this in.

 

[507 001]

The Victoria line ATO is definitely the most competent IMO, even if you take into account the lack of feathering.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Getting away from the ATO on London Underground lines for a second, can I ask if there have been any more 700s being unable to open doors recently? No one has reported any incidents here, is that because of improvements or are they just not being reported?

 

[Bishopstone]

'This train is not in service!', said the PIS on my (8 car, again!) 700 this evening peak.

Really, just admit defeat and 'retro fit' a simple system giving destination and next calling point.

Still much to be impressed about with the acceleration, braking and 'spot on' air conditioning, though.

 

[muddythefish]

The 700s ride well but dear, oh dear the on-train ambience is awful and the seats are straight from China's "hard class". Comfortable they are not. The York-built Class 365 on the KX route still take some beating as the best EMUs on the network and they're 20 plus years old.

 

[Bald Rick]

Getting away from the ATO on London Underground lines for a second, can I ask if there have been any more 700s being unable to open doors recently? No one has reported any incidents here, is that because of improvements or are they just not being reported?

Since the latest software upgrade two weeks ago, every 700 I've been on (14 trips) has had the doors and PIS performing exactly as it should have. That was until tonight, when the PIS on a unit was misbehaving, although the doors and announcements were spot on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Scratchwood is quite bad too.

I believe it may have even been you who said it was due to "underlying track issues", in that it's literally due to the underpinnings under the track [emoji38].

Yes it was me, yes it's the embankment, and that's what I report in when it gets noticeably worse (and not Cricklewood, which is consistently just bad on 377s but not in other units)

 

[Hadders]

The York-built Class 365 on the KX route still take some beating as the best EMUs on the network and they're 20 plus years old.

I agree about the 365s. Excellent trains even with the 'dumbing down' we saw with the recent refresh. Quite why we can't have 365 style seats in the 700s is beyond me.

And there's a nice smiley face on the front of the them

 

[jon0844]

I agree about the 365s. Excellent trains even with the 'dumbing down' we saw with the recent refresh. Quite why we can't have 365 style seats in the 700s is beyond me.

And there's a nice smiley face on the front of the them

The smiley face doesn't seem so good with the new paintjob, but they're otherwise awesome trains. The lack of aircon the only disappointment.

They sound good, are comfortable, accelerate quickly, have a nice interior (even post refresh) and don't feel cramped like the 387s do.

 

[AM9]

The smiley face doesn't seem so good with the new paintjob, but they're otherwise awesome trains. The lack of aircon the only disappointment.

They sound good, are comfortable, accelerate quickly, have a nice interior (even post refresh) and don't feel cramped like the 387s do.

How does their maximum capacity compare with the 700s then?

 

[Abpj17]

On tonights delays, the capacity of the trains was showing their worth (and the door width remains impressive as well)

I'm not sure the ride is as smooth as the ?377s; if I get a table, then I'll tend to work on the train - the 700s (always in the back not-really-1st class section is much more jolty to write in than the equivalent on the 377s)

(I still want tables and comfy seats)

 

[Hadders]

How does their maximum capacity compare with the 700s then?

A 12 car 700 has fewer seats than a 12 car 365.

Seriously, I really don't understand why we can't have the class 700s with 365 style seating. I doubt this would see a significant reduction in capacity.

We do need to remember that the majority of the 700s won't be crush loaded, and the train ambiance should reflect this.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's harsh on the Victoria line too.

All a matter of option on what's harsh and what isn't to be honest. As I understand it on the Vic, Northern and Jubilee the ATO adjusts to how the train is running according to the timetable. In normal circumstances there is slack in the performance. Only if the train needs to gain time will it go flat out.

 

[AM9]

A 12 car 700 has fewer seats than a 12 car 365.

Seriously, I really don't understand why we can't have the class 700s with 365 style seating. I doubt this would see a significant reduction in capacity.

We do need to remember that the majority of the 700s won't be crush loaded, and the train ambiance should reflect this.

The maximum (safe) capacity of a 12-car class 700 is (ISTR) 1750 passengers of which 666 will be seated. The corresponding capacity of a 12-car Electrostar is about 100 more seats including the centre of three seats which are rarely used in preference to standing and about another 500 standing. I presume that the 365s have a similar capacity. The bottom line of Thameslink line travel including the GN branches in the near future is that trains will be at the maximum length for their routes and with support of the latest technology, running at their maximum workable frequency. All of that is necessary for the expected passenger growth, even with the considerable infrastructure investment that has taken place in the last 10 years.
For off-peak travellers, the 700s will have about 15% less seats, although the loss is actually very little owing to the tendency for centre seats to be ignored by most off-peak passengers. Clearly the same seating has to meet the requirements of all service loading, but the critical core dwell time issues have to take priority. The aspects of design to achieve the core performance have been discussed thoroughly earlier in this thread, specifically, the absence of power outlets, tables and seat armrests. The delays that such facilites in commuter trains contribute to have been studied and AIUI, demonstrated in specific tests, - such is the critical nature of Thameslink core operation.
As for the 'ambience' of various trains, this is to a large degree, a matter of personal opinion, and of course, many passengers will have their own preference. A significant proportion of all passengers though are quite ambivalent to the aesthetics of train interiors and just want to get there with the least time and safety impact. In the case of high capacity commuter trains though, punctuality, journey times, reliability and above all, safety are the most important parameters, particularly when the average passenger journy times are considered.

 

[bramling]

All a matter of option on what's harsh and what isn't to be honest. As I understand it on the Vic, Northern and Jubilee the ATO adjusts to how the train is running according to the timetable. In normal circumstances there is slack in the performance. Only if the train needs to gain time will it go flat out.

Not quite.

The Victoria Line system, as I understand it, calculates a coasting point for every station-to-station run based on whether the train is on time (and possibly taking into account the headways in advance/in the rear?). So if the train is running early it will shut off power and coast very early, if it's nearer to on time then it will still coast but later, however if late the train will continue motoring until it meets the braking curve for the next station. This works *very* well indeed, and generally gives a smooth ride for the passenger by emulating what a decent human driver would do. In fact, the old Victoria Line signalling from the 1960s also had a similar feature, although my understanding is they never actually got it to work.

Seltrac, as usual, is inferior. What Seltrac does is calculate a velocity cap if the train is running early, and will rigidly restrict the train to that ceiling. So, for example, if the ceiling is calculated to be 20 mph then the system will literally drive the train at that speed all the way to the next station, accompanied by the usual Seltrac motor/braking nonsense. This can lead to the ridiculous situation that if the train is running early on a downhill section, you get a lot of braking activity to keep the train to the speed ceiling, when the train could just have coasted to the station and spend a few extra seconds in the platform (handy if a wheelchair is boarding!?).

What I would add is that generally you will experience coasting most of the time on the Victoria Line. However on the Jubilee and Northern lines the ATO generally only just about keeps up to the timetable, so most of the time the train is already being driven at the maximum performance profile. Part of the reason for this is there are so many places where the system uses a minimum braking rate (for example every station in the open-air sections because the system simply can't handle varying rail adhesion levels) that it needs to run at line speed just to maintain journey times.

It's worth adding as a footnote that it's more-than possible for a good human driver to meet or even better Seltrac's ATO performance, for various reasons.

 

[samuelmorris]

The fact that the line speed increased when ATO was implemented, however, suggests TfL thought otherwise.

More on topic, honestly I think the worst complaint with 700s could be addressed by removing a few more seats. There aren't that many to start with but those that are there are too close together. Taking one pair of of each block to ensure sufficient legroom would cause even more standing room but be less uncomfortable for those who are seated, IMO.

 

[AM9]

The fact that the line speed increased when ATO was implemented, however, suggests TfL thought otherwise.

More on topic, honestly I think the worst complaint with 700s could be addressed by removing a few more seats. There aren't that many to start with but those that are there are too close together. Taking one pair of of each block to ensure sufficient legroom would cause even more standing room but be less uncomfortable for those who are seated, IMO.

Removing one pair of each block will decrease the number of seats but won't make any more standing room unless standees are standing between the legs of seated passengers!

 

[asylumxl]

Removing one pair of each block will decrease the number of seats but won't make any more standing room unless standees are standing between the legs of seated passengers!

I imagine they might mean take one row of seats out and increase the seat spacing slightly, which would still reduce the space they take up overall.

 

[bramling]

The fact that the line speed increased when ATO was implemented, however, suggests TfL thought otherwise.

Depends where.

The Jubilee and Victoria lines didn't see much increases in permitted speed at all, although higher speeds are now more likely to be attained for various reasons - for example the 2009 stock is more powerful than its predecessor, and the 1996 stock is able to use its full traction ability.

The Northern Line is outwardly more complex as the speed profile for the entire line was remapped. So some sections are faster whilst quite a few sections are actually slower than before. Again performance has benefitted from the trains having their full traction ability uncapped. The big weakness on both the Jubilee and Northern lines is the use of minimum brake rates especially in the open, but also in some tunnel locations. The extra line speed simply makes up for the early gentle braking, which is unfortunate. We have to hope that some workaround is found for this before the sub-surface lines receive the same system, as the effect of minimum brake rates there will be pretty unfortunate.

 

[notverydeep]

The maximum (safe) capacity of a 12-car class 700 is (ISTR) 1750 passengers of which 666 will be seated. The corresponding capacity of a 12-car Electrostar is about 100 more seats including the centre of three seats which are rarely used in preference to standing and about another 500 standing. I presume that the 365s have a similar capacity. The bottom line of Thameslink line travel including the GN branches in the near future is that trains will be at the maximum length for their routes and with support of the latest technology, running at their maximum workable frequency. All of that is necessary for the expected passenger growth, even with the considerable infrastructure investment that has taken place in the last 10 years.
For off-peak travellers, the 700s will have about 15% less seats, although the loss is actually very little owing to the tendency for centre seats to be ignored by most off-peak passengers.

Class 365s are exclusively 2+2 seating, so don't have centre seats. 365s do however maximize the use of the vehicle for seating and manage 270 seats to a class 387/1's 223. They do this while still having a disabled toilet and a reasonable degree of standing space. In this respect they are a model limited stop outer suburban train and have a layout far superior for this function compared to the 387, which seems to combine both reduced seating capacity and standing space for no obvious gain.

A 700 however cannot be a model outer suburban train, because it has to match the dwell times of a high capacity metro, while being a limited stop outer suburban train and a long distance train as well as a high capacity metro. It has to end up being a 'jack of all trades, but master of none'. I would dearly like to keep my seat on my commute from Welwyn Garden City after it is converted to 700s and I and many others at WGC would be happy with centre seats, but the metro planner in me worries that 700s are not metro enough to give dwells short enough to allow 24 trains per hour through St. Pancras and Farringdon!

 

[samuelmorris]

Depends where.

The Jubilee and Victoria lines didn't see much increases in permitted speed at all, although higher speeds are now more likely to be attained for various reasons - for example the 2009 stock is more powerful than its predecessor, and the 1996 stock is able to use its full traction ability.

The Northern Line is outwardly more complex as the speed profile for the entire line was remapped. So some sections are faster whilst quite a few sections are actually slower than before. Again performance has benefitted from the trains having their full traction ability uncapped. The big weakness on both the Jubilee and Northern lines is the use of minimum brake rates especially in the open, but also in some tunnel locations. The extra line speed simply makes up for the early gentle braking, which is unfortunate. We have to hope that some workaround is found for this before the sub-surface lines receive the same system, as the effect of minimum brake rates there will be pretty unfortunate.

The speed of the Jubilee line increased considerably around the time of ATO going in - I'd say by at least 30-40%. That can't be a coincidence. The difference was significant enough that multiple minutes were shed from the timetable on journeys as short as Waterloo - Stratford. Comparing the speed the units travel now between Canada Water and Canary Wharf and how they used to be is night and day. The Northern line feels a lot faster due to the much greater acceleration but as the stations are so close together I'm not sure what sort of difference there is in practice.
Agreed re: minimum braking rates, I understand why they did it, but the 92TS, for all its pitfalls, has demonstrated it isn't necessary in my opinion. </offtopic>

AM9: Yes, the capacity of the train as a whole would be lowered, but in order to provide suitable level of comfort really that should have been looked into methinks - for taller passengers it's often more comfortable to stand unless you can get a bay seat.

 

[bramling]

Class 365s are exclusively 2+2 seating, so don't have centre seats. 365s do however maximize the use of the vehicle for seating and manage 270 seats to a class 387/1's 223. They do this while still having a disabled toilet and a reasonable degree of standing space. In this respect they are a model limited stop outer suburban train and have a layout far superior for this function compared to the 387, which seems to combine both reduced seating capacity and standing space for no obvious gain.

I think this summarises why there is negative reaction to both the 387s and 700s. The class 365 is simply a much more suitable train for the route. It has plenty of comfortable seats with a reasonable amount of room, whilst at the same time having a very reasonable amount of standing space.

The 387 isn't a bad train (apart from the hard seats and the dubious first-class arrangements), but the 365 simply has the edge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The speed of the Jubilee line increased considerably around the time of ATO going in - I'd say by at least 30-40%. That can't be a coincidence. The difference was significant enough that multiple minutes were shed from the timetable on journeys as short as Waterloo - Stratford. Comparing the speed the units travel now between Canada Water and Canary Wharf and how they used to be is night and day. The Northern line feels a lot faster due to the much greater acceleration but as the stations are so close together I'm not sure what sort of difference there is in practice.
Agreed re: minimum braking rates, I understand why they did it, but the 92TS, for all its pitfalls, has demonstrated it isn't necessary in my opinion. </offtopic>

You're seeing an increase on the Jubilee because the traction capability of the trains was uncapped, and also the ATO removes the issue of drivers driving defensively slow. The same speeds could be reached before on most of the line, just for these reasons they were less likely to be achieved in practice.

Likewise, as you say, the enhanced performance on the Northern has made it feel faster, and in some places it is. But in plenty of places it's slower!

Regarding the minimum brake rates, it's not an issue on the 92 stock as the ATO system is different. If the wheels slide, the train simply stops in the wrong place. The Seltrac system has a nasty feature that wheelslide throws up an error which causes the train to lose communication with the system (the system relies on knowing the exact speed of the train at all times, wheelslide messes this up), which then means it has to go through the process of being re-entered into the system, which can take 5 to 15 minutes depending on location, as well as being labour intensive on the part of the signaller. The wonders of technology!

 

[gsnedders]

I attempted to get my first ride on a 700 today (I know, I know, I'm late to the party!) but the first two trains were going on branches that they don't go, so I ended up on an old 319 (the seats on them, which look identical to those on ScotRail's 318s and 320s, seem much much harder than the 318s/320s!). Hopefully get a 700 this evening!

What's my best bet for getting a 700? Getting one that's come from Brighton?

I saw one going the other direction (okay, I'd seen one in the platform at Brighton before, but I was rushing around with disruption causing chaos—I'd been meant to go down the Arun Valley line!), and I must say the bogies do look like they have very little metal to them compared with most other stock I see; no surprise they're designed for lightness, really.

 

[physics34]

please remind me if there will be more trains on the Sutton loop from 2018 or not...as i saw the 700 earlier at streatham on the up line (roughly 08.30).. and it was absolutely packed to the rafters...... not sure if anything was cancelled before but surely it wont be like this when all the changes happen.

 

[Domh245]

please remind me if there will be more trains on the Sutton loop from 2018 or not...as i saw the 700 earlier at streatham on the up line (roughly 08.30).. and it was absolutely packed to the rafters...... not sure if anything was cancelled before but surely it wont be like this when all the changes happen.

Stays at same frequency I believe. There was a proposal to double the frequency at the expense of curtailing the service at Blackfriars, but the passengers wanted to keep their links to the core and MML, which meant that they're stuck with the 2tph in each direction they have now.

 

[D365]

A whole can of worms were opened back there...