Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[BRX]

Of if you mean running services to Blackfriars only, well your still limited to paths through Herne Hill so there isn't going to be much difference from the current offering of 6tph (4x TL and 2x SN).

How about a shuttle service between Herne Hill and Blackfriars stopping at Loughborough Junction and Elephant.....

 

[Class377/5]

How about a shuttle service between Herne Hill and Blackfriars stopping at Loughborough Junction and Elephant.....

There no way you can do that with the current infrastructure as its Herne Hill that's the issue. Note there is only one plaform that you can access from the north and reverse in anyway so you'd limit all services via Loughborough to a maximum to around 4tph plus a 2tph shuttle. Plan is for 8-10tph via this way in December 2018.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are the 700s going through the Canal Tunnels to get to Hornsey, or is the round the houses route still used?

Both. Limited number of GTR drivers sign the Canal Tunnels limiting ECS moves. Lots of the moves to/from Three Bridges are done with GBRF drivers so travel via Kensington Olympia.

When is wifi due

Whenever the DfT makes agreements with XLT then dates for wifi can be given. Currently not agreed (same for the tables) so no dates can be given.

 

[387star]

I remember reading wifi would be mandatory for all trains from 2017

 

[Class377/5]

I remember reading wifi would be mandatory for all trains from 2017

Where ever you read that got that very very wrong. For example 313/455 fleets have no wifi planned.

 

[swt_passenger]

I remember reading wifi would be mandatory for all trains from 2017

Here tis, from Feb 2015:

Train operators are being asked to set how they will meet the commitment to provide this important service for passengers. All train operators bidding for new franchises and direct award agreements will have to include this specification in their bid.

Where there is no new franchise agreement due in the next 2 years, almost £50 million of funding will be released from the Department for Transport to ensure wi-fi is available on selected services from 2017. The operators in this group are:

Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern (TSGN)
Southeastern
Chiltern
Arriva Trains Wales.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/free-wi-fi-to-help-rail-commuters-stay-connected

 

[Class377/5]

So there is a misunderstanding here as its clear its not happening on all services as the quote shows!

Where there is no new franchise agreement due in the next 2 years, almost £50 million of funding will be released from the Department for Transport to ensure wi-fi is available on selected services from 2017. The operators in this group are:

Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern (TSGN)
Southeastern
Chiltern
Arriva Trains Wales.

This doesn't say all services on the above franchise will have wifi. For the record wifi on the 387/2 Gatwick Express services could qualify GTR part for the agreement even if no other stock receiving wifi in 2017 with the way that is worded.

The department has challenged rail industry operators to begin installing equipment as soon as possible to deliver wi-fi by 2017.

 

[swt_passenger]

So there is a misunderstanding here as its clear its not happening on all services as the quote shows!

This doesn't say all services on the above franchise will have wifi. For the record wifi on the 387/2 Gatwick Express services could qualify GTR part for the agreement even if no other stock receiving wifi in 2017 with the way that is worded.

Fair point - as usual they've allowed some (or a lot of) wriggle room. I'd suggest it is probably more likely to be older stock such as 313s and 455s that is out of scope though...

 

[BRX]

There no way you can do that with the current infrastructure as its Herne Hill that's the issue. Note there is only one plaform that you can access from the north and reverse in anyway so you'd limit all services via Loughborough to a maximum to around 4tph plus a 2tph shuttle. Plan is for 8-10tph via this way in December 2018.

As I understand it we won't benefit from the 8-10tph because they'll be running straight through as the diverted Brighton trains do at the moment. Of course, I realise the timetable can't be arranged just to suit my local station. It wasn't an entirely serious suggestion. But if it were possible to reverse a train at Herne Hill without crossing the main lines then it would be a nice idea and take a bit of pressure off the Wimbledon Loop services as they approach the centre.

 

[Class377/5]

As I understand it we won't benefit from the 8-10tph because they'll be running straight through as the diverted Brighton trains do at the moment. Of course, I realise the timetable can't be arranged just to suit my local station. It wasn't an entirely serious suggestion. But if it were possible to reverse a train at Herne Hill without crossing the main lines then it would be a nice idea and take a bit of pressure off the Wimbledon Loop services as they approach the centre.

Line between Loughborough and Herne Hill can only access one platform at Herne Hill so there is no scope for revering services there without causing chaos with the service.

Even with the Brighton services gone, there's no run to reverse services and this issue is not connected to crossing the mainline either.

 

[BRX]

Line between Loughborough and Herne Hill can only access one platform at Herne Hill so there is no scope for revering services there without causing chaos with the service.

Even with the Brighton services gone, there's no run to reverse services and this issue is not connected to crossing the mainline either.

There is, however, the stabling siding added a few years ago, and the possibility of turning it into an extra platform is mentioned in this good London Reconnections article. It also acknowledges the difficulties in doing so, however.

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2012/unlocking-herne-hill-and-the-kent-route-to-the-city-2/

It makes the point about the 4-track stretch of line between Loughborough Junction and Blackfriars being under-utilised. As a Loughborough Junction passenger it's frustrating to know that there's a fast and under-utilised stretch of track between you and the city, but seemingly little way of taking full advantage of it.

 

[Class377/5]

There is, however, the stabling siding added a few years ago, and the possibility of turning it into an extra platform is mentioned in this good London Reconnections article. It also acknowledges the difficulties in doing so, however.

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2012/unlocking-herne-hill-and-the-kent-route-to-the-city-2/

It makes the point about the 4-track stretch of line between Loughborough Junction and Blackfriars being under-utilised. As a Loughborough Junction passenger it's frustrating to know that there's a fast and under-utilised stretch of track between you and the city, but seemingly little way of taking full advantage of it.

I never said it wasn't impossible but doing a new platform and extending the station to link the platform won't be cheap.

The section between Herne Hill and Elephant & Castle via Loughborough is not going to be under-utilised, its to receive 10-12tph in the December 2018 timetable change with 6tph peak/4tph off peak continuing to serve Loughborough Junction.

EDIT:

700017 arrived this morning.

Another path in for Saturday

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H20886/2016/12/17/advanced

 

[tsr]

Line between Loughborough and Herne Hill can only access one platform at Herne Hill so there is no scope for revering services there without causing chaos with the service.

Even with the Brighton services gone, there's no run to reverse services and this issue is not connected to crossing the mainline either.

If you were actually going to run a service of that nature, and if Southern services were not running at all, I suppose it could make more sense to send "normal" Thameslink services via Streatham and reverse the extra shuttles at Tulse Hill (either on the West Norwood Spur shunt or the Knights Hill Tunnel shunt). You could even send them further and call at stations to Crystal Palace, which would connect with the Overground, if (as today) they were running an enhanced service there.

All very academic as I'm pretty sure it won't happen, not least due to driver and stock resources being allocated elsewhere!

 

[Deepgreen]

If you were actually going to run a service of that nature, and if Southern services were not running at all, I suppose it could make more sense to send "normal" Thameslink services via Streatham and reverse the extra shuttles at Tulse Hill (either on the West Norwood Spur shunt or the Knights Hill Tunnel shunt). You could even send them further and call at stations to Crystal Palace, which would connect with the Overground, if (as today) they were running an enhanced service there.

All very academic as I'm pretty sure it won't happen, not least due to driver and stock resources being allocated elsewhere!

Talking of this area - even over the last two (Southern strike) days, our Thameslink runs were crawls between Loughborough Junction and Norwood Junction. I couldn't see any TSRs, so is there some sort of blanket 15mph limit on this entire stretch? We, not surprisingly, had greens all the way, but still crawled.

 

[Class377/5]

Another 700 was delivered this morning. Heard its 700037 but 036 has also been quoted.

 

[hwl]

Talking of this area - even over the last two (Southern strike) days, our Thameslink runs were crawls between Loughborough Junction and Norwood Junction. I couldn't see any TSRs, so is there some sort of blanket 15mph limit on this entire stretch? We, not surprisingly, had greens all the way, but still crawled.

TSR southbound on the approach to Crystal Palace tunnel and also very low line speed through the over bridge between West Norwood and Gipsy Hill due to a very tight overbridge.

They still have to fit in with the rest of the timetable at Herne Hill and the Wimbledon - Sutton Loop TL services at Tulse Hill.

 

[Deepgreen]

TSR southbound on the approach to Crystal Palace tunnel and also very low line speed through the over bridge between West Norwood and Gipsy Hill due to a very tight overbridge.

They still have to fit in with the rest of the timetable at Herne Hill and the Wimbledon - Sutton Loop TL services at Tulse Hill.

Indeed, but, as I said, we had greens all the way (except Herne Hill junctions). The TSRs make sense, but with nothing in our way, the 'permanent' 15mph crawl seems odd.

More pertinently to this thread, I noticed the first discrepancy between actual and displayed loadings yesterday on my 700/0. There was significant standing in the coach which was displayed as only half full. There was also no message to indicate de-classified first class at the front (given the Southern strike day).

 

[Class377/5]

Indeed, but, as I said, we had greens all the way (except Herne Hill junctions). The TSRs make sense, but with nothing in our way, the 'permanent' 15mph crawl seems odd.

More pertinently to this thread, I noticed the first discrepancy between actual and displayed loadings yesterday on my 700/0. There was significant standing in the coach which was displayed as only half full. There was also no message to indicate de-classified first class at the front (given the Southern strike day).

Loading data can only be taken when he train isn't moving (as any swaying will give false readings).

As for first class being declassified, depends if the drivers were given the altered code or not. Its not just click on something but a different code.

 

[talldave]

Had a ride on an 8 car today (700008), in first class due to it being de-classified (although no indication of this on the train). In coach 1, one side of the PIS was stuck on "Stand clear of the doors", whilst in coach 2, both of the PIS displays I could see were stuck on the same message. No door opening problems despite the different stopping point for 8 coach. There's an overwhelming smell of newness in first; it was a shame to get off after just two stops.

 

[westcoaster]

Talking of this area - even over the last two (Southern strike) days, our Thameslink runs were crawls between Loughborough Junction and Norwood Junction. I couldn't see any TSRs, so is there some sort of blanket 15mph limit on this entire stretch? We, not surprisingly, had greens all the way, but still crawled.

It will take time writing this so bare with me, I'll explain speeds and why it takes forever.

The run from elephant to loughborough junction is 60 mph
From the junction before loughborough junction to the start of the platform 20 mph.
Loughborough junction to herne hill 60 mph
Across the junction and up to peabody viaduct 20 mph,
From the viaduct to the junction before tulse Hill 45 mph
Across the junction and into tulse Hill 15 mph
Tulse hill all the way up the Norwood spur, through West Norwood and about 1/3 of the way to gypsy hill 20 mph (this is the low speed long slog)
A short stretch of 35, the 50 mph from before gypsy hill until the exit of crystal palace tunnel.
15mph across crystal palace junction.
25 through the platform.
50 mph to Bromley junction then 20 to Norwood junction.

Another reason for the slow speed is you have to wait for the rear of the train to clear the previous speed restriction, I'm not good at maths but it takes a 12 car train 3 times as long to go through a 15 mph restriction than a 4 car. This all adds up.

One example is coming out of crystal palace tunnel southbound the speeds go 15/25/50,

in a 4 car as soon as you get to the 4 car monitors you accelerate to 25, clear the platform then it's upto 50.

In a 12 car you have to wait until you are all the way through the 25 and we'll into the 50 before you clear the 15, you then accelerate upto 25, by the time you clear the 25 you can get upto 35 before braking for the 20 at Bromley junction.

So I feel a 12 takes longer in the slow section compared to 4 or 8 cars.

 

[ComUtoR]

It will take time writing this so bare with me, I'll explain speeds and why it takes forever.

Excellent post.

I would also add in acceleration and braking for stations. The only bit I sign for all that is Elephant to Herne Hill and I would say its rare to hit 60 from Loughborough into Herne Hill (not done it in a while)

I'd also add in signals and although Deepgreen states they were green it doesn't mean that the Driver sees green. I know I'm looking in advance and reacting to what I can see and not just the signal I just received.

 

[westcoaster]

Excellent post.

I would also add in acceleration and braking for stations. The only bit I sign for all that is Elephant to Herne Hill and I would say its rare to hit 60 from Loughborough into Herne Hill (not done it in a while)

I'd also add in signals and although Deepgreen states they were green it doesn't mean that the Driver sees green. I know I'm looking in advance and reacting to what I can see and not just the signal I just received.

45 is more realistic on the down (we have a job fast from Blackfriars to Bromley south via herne hill non stop, and going over the points at herne hill onto the chathams is an eye opener at 45) , and 60 through loughborough junction on the up line.

 

[samuelmorris]

There's definitely a set of points around the Loughborough junction area coming into London that's pretty alarming when taken at speed, I've noticed that a couple of times. If you weren't fully in your seat (e.g. sitting next to someone a bit wider than average) I could see being thrown from your seat.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just a general question which may not really fit here. Recently we have had a lot of shortformations due to wheel flats (standard autumn problem from what I understand). Now we are moving to fixed formation sets like the 700s will we see the cancellations rockets at this time of the year or have does the company have plans to deal with this?

 

[Class377/5]

Just a general question which may not really fit here. Recently we have had a lot of shortformations due to wheel flats (standard autumn problem from what I understand). Now we are moving to fixed formation sets like the 700s will we see the cancellations rockets at this time of the year or have does the company have plans to deal with this?

Siemens are contracted to provide x amount of trains (today its 11x FLU and 7x RLU) and it for them to ensure enough trains are provided not GTR. However GTR brings trains to Siemens in time for exams.

Worth noting that Thameslink has never had its own lathe and uses Hornsey since FCC but has used Selhurst in the past. Siemens have a lathe at Three Bridges with Hornsey lathe used for 700s as well as the GN stock (313/365/387/707).

Also been stated the tread brakes on some 700 bogies means the wheels are cleaned better than with disc brakes like other stock.

 

[Deepgreen]

Loading data can only be taken when he train isn't moving (as any swaying will give false readings).

As for first class being declassified, depends if the drivers were given the altered code or not. Its not just click on something but a different code.

The loading data did not change throughout the journey, even though the East Croydon stop produced if anything, a greater loading heading south, with the indicator still claiming the carriage was half full, when there was copious standing.

As ever then, the supposedly wonderful new information system still depends on the time-honoured means of individual code entering, rather anything reliable. I would have hoped/expected universal messages such as first class declassification to be applicable from an external/central source.

 

[Deepgreen]

It will take time writing this so bare with me, I'll explain speeds and why it takes forever.

The run from elephant to loughborough junction is 60 mph
From the junction before loughborough junction to the start of the platform 20 mph.
Loughborough junction to herne hill 60 mph
Across the junction and up to peabody viaduct 20 mph,
From the viaduct to the junction before tulse Hill 45 mph
Across the junction and into tulse Hill 15 mph
Tulse hill all the way up the Norwood spur, through West Norwood and about 1/3 of the way to gypsy hill 20 mph (this is the low speed long slog)
A short stretch of 35, the 50 mph from before gypsy hill until the exit of crystal palace tunnel.
15mph across crystal palace junction.
25 through the platform.
50 mph to Bromley junction then 20 to Norwood junction.

Another reason for the slow speed is you have to wait for the rear of the train to clear the previous speed restriction, I'm not good at maths but it takes a 12 car train 3 times as long to go through a 15 mph restriction than a 4 car. This all adds up.

One example is coming out of crystal palace tunnel southbound the speeds go 15/25/50,

in a 4 car as soon as you get to the 4 car monitors you accelerate to 25, clear the platform then it's upto 50.

In a 12 car you have to wait until you are all the way through the 25 and we'll into the 50 before you clear the 15, you then accelerate upto 25, by the time you clear the 25 you can get upto 35 before braking for the 20 at Bromley junction.

So I feel a 12 takes longer in the slow section compared to 4 or 8 cars.

Useful information - thanks.

 

[Deepgreen]

Excellent post.

I would also add in acceleration and braking for stations. The only bit I sign for all that is Elephant to Herne Hill and I would say its rare to hit 60 from Loughborough into Herne Hill (not done it in a while)

I'd also add in signals and although Deepgreen states they were green it doesn't mean that the Driver sees green. I know I'm looking in advance and reacting to what I can see and not just the signal I just received.

Agreed, but with no Southern metros operating and the previous TL nowhere near, not only did I see greens at every signal but I can see no reason why there would not have been greens as far as the eye could see (except for approach controls, etc.). Nothing on RTT to contradict my assumption, either. However, the tortuous speed limit profile on the route probably means that a plod is all that many can be bothered with.

 

[Class377/5]

The loading data did not change throughout the journey, even though the East Croydon stop produced if anything, a greater loading heading south, with the indicator still claiming the carriage was half full, when there was copious standing.

As ever then, the supposedly wonderful new information system still depends on the time-honoured means of individual code entering, rather anything reliable. I would have hoped/expected universal messages such as first class declassification to be applicable from an external/central source.

The new system is still in the early stages with more added. Efforts so far have been working on providing a more reliable PIS system that's connected to cloud but not yet full changing from it. Worth noting the Electrostar PIS still isn't 100% despite over 15 years of experience.

Next year will start (IIIRC) will start to see the information upgraded remotely.

 

[387star]

The 700s have the best first class on the bml since the 442s imo just a shame the legroom is no tight In standard as I had trouble getting comfortable yesterday .

 

[Deepgreen]

The new system is still in the early stages with more added. Efforts so far have been working on providing a more reliable PIS system that's connected to cloud but not yet full changing from it. Worth noting the Electrostar PIS still isn't 100% despite over 15 years of experience.

Next year will start (IIIRC) will start to see the information upgraded remotely.

Really?? - the Cloud - hardly the epitome of reliability!

Superb understatement (or typo adding a zero)!

Thanks anyway for the note.