Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Bungle965]

My service which was diverted from Sutton to go via West Croydon due to a fire, it was something out of the ordinary at least.
How often do the 700s get diverted that way?
Sam

 

[387star]

Seat back tables likely to be fitted by the years end do we know or is logo changing taking priority?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I do find it generally a little cooler in 1st class, I can only assume that's due to the door making it a more confined area to keep cool.
....

If the source if the conditioned air for that coach is within the first class area then I suppose it would be colder/warmer/more-conditioned than beyond the door.

....
Forgive me, I'm finding this a little hard to picture! Seat back tables generally sit with their hinges well above knee height. Unless you're so tall that to sit straight you would end up with your knees considerably higher than your waist that is!
.

Fair question. Well er yes the (folded) seat back table is only going to get in the way perhaps as I shuffle in and out of a seat. I have fairly long limbs for my height and while sitting there I was trying to visualise the folded table. I will have to try again next time I am in a 700 and hopefully realise the table must be higher than my knees.

Last Friday I had opportunities to travel on 700s again :-

I had a dose of the first class and find the armrests make a difference. I can lean on the armrests to stop myself tipping forward. Or are the first class seats a different shape/tilt ?. Perhaps I was just less tired this last Friday.

I did notice a few light thuds as the train moved - rear first class. I was in there on my own apart from a male who wished to share his loooong mobile phone conversation with me. I likened the thud to a whole panel that is slightly bowed flexing and the bow popping to the other side.

As for the passenger information I noticed that from St Pancras (where I got on) to Blackfriars the only info was destination and next stop (I do not think the tube service info was showing but not sure), South of Blackfriars we got the full info including the declass info - which I had been beginning to worry about !.

Going North earlier in the day 700044 (iirc) had refused to admit we had got past Blackfriars. Even as I left the train at Kentish Town it was still saying next stop Blackfriars !. I cannot recall where it thought we were from Mitcham Junction.

This mis-information is really bugging me. It devalues the information when it is working since, after all, how is someone supposed to decide if the information is correct or not ?. Just save money and not have it there at all in the first place. Or at least switch it off until it is known to be working.

 

[EMD]

This mis-information is really bugging me. It devalues the information when it is working since, after all, how is someone supposed to decide if the information is correct or not ?.

Call me ignoramus but isn't the same system basically going to drive the automation for the core? If it hangs like that - presumably because there's no GPS signal but rather it relies on beacons at each station - how are the trains supposed to know where they are.

 

[Deepgreen]

A luxury I fear is fast disappearing, as more people gain knowledge of the declass!

My recent experience is that people are generally treating the first class at both ends as being de-classified! As one has to remain in the rear section until the train is underway and the message has had time to scroll through to the de-classification message (which is only shown in the de-classified area itself), it is most unlikely that anyone will be aware of the de-classification from the on-board information unless they choose to remain there anyway! The whole saga of the semi-permanent de-classification is a farce, and shows a ridiculous lack of planning by GTR for the deployment of their new stock - passengers' first and standard class travel patterns have not changed that much since the 700s were specified!

 

[Deepgreen]

If the source if the conditioned air for that coach is within the first class area then I suppose it would be colder/warmer/more-conditioned than beyond the door.



Fair question. Well er yes the (folded) seat back table is only going to get in the way perhaps as I shuffle in and out of a seat. I have fairly long limbs for my height and while sitting there I was trying to visualise the folded table. I will have to try again next time I am in a 700 and hopefully realise the table must be higher than my knees.

Last Friday I had opportunities to travel on 700s again :-

I had a dose of the first class and find the armrests make a difference. I can lean on the armrests to stop myself tipping forward. Or are the first class seats a different shape/tilt ?. Perhaps I was just less tired this last Friday.

I did notice a few light thuds as the train moved - rear first class. I was in there on my own apart from a male who wished to share his loooong mobile phone conversation with me. I likened the thud to a whole panel that is slightly bowed flexing and the bow popping to the other side.

As for the passenger information I noticed that from St Pancras (where I got on) to Blackfriars the only info was destination and next stop (I do not think the tube service info was showing but not sure), South of Blackfriars we got the full info including the declass info - which I had been beginning to worry about !.

Going North earlier in the day 700044 (iirc) had refused to admit we had got past Blackfriars. Even as I left the train at Kentish Town it was still saying next stop Blackfriars !. I cannot recall where it thought we were from Mitcham Junction.

This mis-information is really bugging me. It devalues the information when it is working since, after all, how is someone supposed to decide if the information is correct or not ?. Just save money and not have it there at all in the first place. Or at least switch it off until it is known to be working.

The thudding still bugs me and seems no nearer to being explained. The failure of the PIS is frequent enough to be a worry - trains either show nothing, show erroneous information (out of synch/wrong stations) or 'stick' on one specific message. It just seems to be impossible for the rail industry to provide electronic information systems that are anything like reliable. Occasional failures cannot be avoided, but the frequency on the 700s is ridiculous, especially after such a supposedly rigorous testing/proving regime.
BTW - why are the 700s' cab-front displays so feeble that they cannot be read in anything much brighter than dusk/heavy cloud lighting levels?

 

[Spod]

Do the unit have multiple thermometers for the aircon per coach and can different sections of the coach have any individual adjustment of the air con temperature to take into account the temperature of the air coming through from an adjacent coach?

All the air con will be set to the same target temperature, however I assume individual air con units will be controlled by a nearby thermostat. So if one end of a carriage (or one entire carriage, I don't know the granularity) is warmer due to the adjacent carriage having failed a/c, it will work harder (or more continuously) to achieve the set temperature.

Whether the a/c is powerful enough to compensate in that situation and actually reach the set temperature may be another matter entirely. But it will try.

 

[jon0844]

My recent experience is that people are generally treating the first class at both ends as being de-classified! As one has to remain in the rear section until the train is underway and the message has had time to scroll through to the de-classification message (which is only shown in the de-classified area itself), it is most unlikely that anyone will be aware of the de-classification from the on-board information unless they choose to remain there anyway! The whole saga of the semi-permanent de-classification is a farce, and shows a ridiculous lack of planning by GTR for the deployment of their new stock - passengers' first and standard class travel patterns have not changed that much since the 700s were specified!

The DfT wanted the trains as they are, and I think the way it's done with screens to show which section is declassified is better (and more consistent being the back all the time) than having stickers in one compartment, like the 377/5s, which could mean having to walk 8 or 12 coaches to the correct end.

The fact people are treating both as declassified is a separate issue, but seems to go back many years when people in the peak (and especially in the core) assume there will be no checks, probably based on experience.

 

[urpert]

Amused to notice this evening that you can still see the shape of the old logo in the dirt left when they peeled the sticker off.

Also visible in this photo is one of the block markers which are currently mostly covered with bin bags.

 

[Skimble19]

Amused to notice this evening that you can still see the shape of the old logo in the dirt left when they peeled the sticker off.

Also visible in this photo is one of the block markers which are currently mostly covered with bin bags.

I'm not sure if it's just a trick of the light, but it also looks as if the writing is in black rather than grey in that photo too

 

[urpert]

Hard to tell as it was taken this evening at City Thameslink.

 

[GodAtum]

Regarding 1st class provisioning, is there enough? As the 700s came into service, I said that having the rear 1st class declassified was a bad idea as there would be less space for paying 1st class passengers. Do many 1st class passengers find themselves having to stand?

 

[physics34]

ive heard the 700s moving onto London Bridge to Horsham services has been put back to November.

 

[jon0844]

Regarding 1st class provisioning, is there enough? As the 700s came into service, I said that having the rear 1st class declassified was a bad idea as there would be less space for paying 1st class passengers. Do many 1st class passengers find themselves having to stand?

They can always make both ends first class again, although this will surely require a period of signs being put at both ends to say - not just using the screens. And a grace period of, erm, a decade or two.

 

[Blindtraveler]

A delay in 700 introduction to other routes from LBG now. Is this the admition that these things are underperforming crap like so many have said or it it down to driver training or similer?

 

[Fincra5]

A delay in 700 introduction to other routes from LBG now. Is this the admition that these things are underperforming crap like so many have said or it it down to driver training or similer?

Too many issues apparently with the 700s. Theres some waiting to be commissioned but GTR aren't (Apparenty) accepting anymore atm.. No space!

 

[physics34]

Too many issues apparently with the 700s. Theres some waiting to be commissioned but GTR aren't (Apparenty) accepting anymore atm.. No space!

Yep ive heard software issues too. Training and route knowledge is an inevitable issue to come in the future!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

And a perfect lost opportunity to have retained the sidings at West Worthing that could have been relaid for extra storage space. How about storing them on the Ardingly branch or at Eastleigh?

 

[spark001uk]

You know what, I find it incredible the amount of people I watch have a fight with the first class door trying to open it.! A small "push/pull" sticker would put these poor creatures out of their misery.!

 

[Sunset route]

Too many issues apparently with the 700s. Theres some waiting to be commissioned but GTR aren't (Apparenty) accepting anymore atm.. No space!

There's have been quite a few occasions recently, tonight included where Three Bridges Depot can't accept anymore trains into the Up Depot (including scheduled ones) because it is full. There must be a lot of 700s sitting round doing sweet FA.

 

[jon0844]

You know what, I find it incredible the amount of people I watch have a fight with the first class door trying to open it.! A small "push/pull" sticker would put these poor creatures out of their misery.!

Are people trying to slide them or something?! They open both ways so it shouldn't be hard.

They do swing back with some force, so you need to be careful if following someone that decides to push and lets go.

 

[GodAtum]

Are people trying to slide them or something?! They open both ways so it shouldn't be hard.

They do swing back with some force, so you need to be careful if following someone that decides to push and lets go.

On the old 319s someone was injured after the door swung into them.

 

[John1975]

I'm hearing that due to concerns over reliability and performance, no more 700's will be introduced until at least October.

 

[Spartacus]

I'm hearing that due to concerns over reliability and performance, no more 700's will be introduced until at least October.

I'm not surprised, anything that can go wrong seems to do! Should have had just a simple upgrade to the basic Desiro design instead of these over complicated delay creators.

 

[hwl]

I'm hearing that due to concerns over reliability and performance, no more 700's will be introduced until at least October.

Delivered to the UK or introduced into service? The former makes much more sense than the later.

October for any more in service would probably mean 319s still operating in Jan next year...

 

[MCR247]

I'm not surprised, anything that can go wrong seems to do! Should have had just a simple upgrade to the basic Desiro design instead of these over complicated delay creators.

Desiro wasn't being offered and wouldn't have met most of the DfTs specification, but hey ho never let actual facts get in the way :roll:

 

[tsr]

Delivered to the UK or introduced into service? The former makes much more sense than the later.

October for any more in service would probably mean 319s still operating in Jan next year...

I've said it before, mainly to friends rather than on here, that it seems the 319s simply don't want to go - though I do remember posting that I wouldn't be surprised if the "reopening" run through the refurbished London Bridge in 2018 was performed by a single 319 with a load of drunks smoking on it, vomit between the seats, and no PIS or walk-through coaches in sight...

Desiro wasn't being offered and wouldn't have met most of the DfTs specification, but hey ho never let actual facts get in the way :roll:

Exactly. Whatever we all say about the 700s (and I am aware I am as big a critic as any!), the Desiros wouldn't have been suitable anyway.

It perhaps goes without saying that I will be interested to see how the Crossrail units perform in passenger service compared to the 700s, as although they perform different duties with some differing requirements, they also have similarities from a longer-distance high-capacity metro point of view.

For clarity, I'm not saying that they'd be any better, nor that Bombardier metro trains would have been the ideal solution.

 

[ScotGG]

I'm hearing that due to concerns over reliability and performance, no more 700's will be introduced until at least October.

That's the potential cascade of 377s to Southeastern put back further then if it even happens at all.

Couple with what seems permanent Southeastern Metro service reductions due to the rebuild and many Southeastern passengers will wonder what all the disruption was for.

 

[Spartacus]

Desiro wasn't being offered and wouldn't have met most of the DfTs specification, but hey ho never let actual facts get in the way :roll:

Did I say they should have built more Desiros? :-? 700s are Desiro Cities (Citys?), a heavy upgrade of the Desiro, which amongst other things omits many of the many mechanical systems and replaces them with electronic ones, which seems to be the source of many, though far from all, of the problems, essentially doing a modern version what EE did to the reliable DP2. A much simpler upgrade, meeting specifications without implementing too many untested 'improvements' would no doubt have been a much more reliable option for both the Class 50s and 700s.

It would be useful to compare the issues the 700s are having to the 380s which have a similar, though reportedly less advanced computer control system, I know they've had their fair share of issues in Scotland not experienced by the Desiros elsewhere.

I know one thing for certain, the 700s were ordered based on promised high reliability. They have been far from that so far.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And if and I stress
IF
the 345s simply roll out into service with little to no issue then I predict the end of this manufacturers presence in the supply of new stock. After all the 380s, 350/3/4s and all 700 series have been problematic and oif reliability was a key factor then thats their reputation shot to hell. No loss IMO we should have brittish built trains but thats an entirely different subject.