Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Deepgreen]

The DfT wanted the trains as they are, and I think the way it's done with screens to show which section is declassified is better (and more consistent being the back all the time) than having stickers in one compartment, like the 377/5s, which could mean having to walk 8 or 12 coaches to the correct end.

The fact people are treating both as declassified is a separate issue, but seems to go back many years when people in the peak (and especially in the core) assume there will be no checks, probably based on experience.

Indeed - but they are only of any use if passengers actually see the message. Given that, at stations, the scrolling message 'freezes' and only resumes while well underway again, only if someone remains in first class for a few minutes will they see the declassification message! It's not shown in the rest of the train, so is useless in terms of informing passengers there that they may spread out. It's not been thought through from a practical perspective at all.

 

[Hadders]

I've said it before, mainly to friends rather than on here, that it seems the 319s simply don't want to go - though I do remember posting that I wouldn't be surprised if the "reopening" run through the refurbished London Bridge in 2018 was performed by a single 319 with a load of drunks smoking on it, vomit between the seats, and no PIS or walk-through coaches in sight... :twisted

You've forgotten to add that it'll be a 4-car train with chewing gum stuck to the seats

To be honest anything that delays the introduction of the 700s to Great Northern routes is probably a good thing.

 

[JonathanH]

That's the potential cascade of 377s to Southeastern put back further then if it even happens at all.

Couple with what seems permanent Southeastern Metro service reductions due to the rebuild and many Southeastern passengers will wonder what all the disruption was for.

Suggestions elsewhere that 377s to Southeastern isn't happening anyway as there is nowhere available to stable an increase in the fleet. 700 delay would appear to simply delay the movement of some 377s to a secure siding.

 

[43074]

I know one thing for certain, the 700s were ordered based on promised high reliability. They have been far from that so far.

The 444s had problems when they were new and now consistently top the reliability tables, no reason to assume the 700s won't be similar. It's just the bathtub curve again, when they're new they're more troublesome while things settle down, when they do settle down they'll more reliable, as they get older they become more unreliable as parts expire, simple.

 

[AM9]

The 444s had problems when they were new and now consistently top the reliability tables, no reason to assume the 700s won't be similar. It's just the bathtub curve again, when they're new they're more troublesome while things settle down, when they do settle down they'll more reliable, as they get older they become more unreliable as parts expire, simple.

Don't confuse the discussion with facts. It spoils a good rant.

 

[physics34]

Suggestions elsewhere that 377s to Southeastern isn't happening anyway as there is nowhere available to stable an increase in the fleet. 700 delay would appear to simply delay the movement of some 377s to a secure siding.

with thameslink taking some southeastern services, they may not now need the southern 377s anyway. Not sure how long the 8x377/5s will be at SE for.... for quite a while id suggest, considering theyve had substantial SE branding applied.

its pretty funny and incompetent that theyve "run out of space" when they finally have enough stock around to really reduce overcrowding.

 

[ScotGG]

Suggestions elsewhere that 377s to Southeastern isn't happening anyway as there is nowhere available to stable an increase in the fleet. 700 delay would appear to simply delay the movement of some 377s to a secure siding.

That was the 319 transfer plan wasn't it. 377 plan was separate but who would be surprised if SE are messed about again.

 

[ScotGG]

with thameslink taking some southeastern services, they may not now need the southern 377s anyway. Not sure how long the 8x377/5s will be at SE for.... for quite a while id suggest, considering theyve had substantial SE branding applied.

its pretty funny and incompetent that theyve "run out of space" when they finally have enough stock around to really reduce overcrowding.

There's absolutely a need for more stock on Metro services which 377s would provide as they free up 465/9s. SE stock is very stretched.

Thameslink does little for most Metro lines - even the 2tph via Greenwich. It's supposed to be in addition to services as they are today so nothing is freed up.

They run out of space as endless short term extension means no planning for the area has happened for many years. It's a shambles.

 

[John1975]

Delivered to the UK or introduced into service? The former makes much more sense than the later.

October for any more in service would probably mean 319s still operating in Jan next year...

The way things are at the moment, its sounding very much like both.

 

[physics34]

There's absolutely a need for more stock on Metro services which 377s would provide as they free up 465/9s. SE stock is very stretched.

Thameslink does little for most Metro lines - even the 2tph via Greenwich. It's supposed to be in addition to services as they are today so nothing is freed up.

They run out of space as endless short term extension means no planning for the area has happened for many years. It's a shambles.

but i guess the additional TL services will take the strain off 'some' current SE services.

As a consequence it seems southern will have a surplus of stock...unless it reduces its 455s than it has already proposed or its 313s, which are both of course constrained by leases til 2021.

 

[Goldfish62]

And if and I stress
IF
the 345s simply roll out into service with little to no issue then I predict the end of this manufacturers presence in the supply of new stock. After all the 380s, 350/3/4s and all 700 series have been problematic and oif reliability was a key factor then thats their reputation shot to hell. No loss IMO we should have brittish built trains but thats an entirely different subject.

The 350s, 450s and 444s are some of the most reliable trains in the UK. Far more so than the equivalent Bombardier products.

 

[hwl]

The 350s, 450s and 444s are some of the most reliable trains in the UK. Far more so than the equivalent Bombardier products.

The 350s 450s and 444s are all Siemens maintained so contractually and financially it makes sense for Siemens to minimise in service failures which they get penalised for. The Bombardier 357s, 375s, 376s, 377s, 379s and 387 are all TOC maintained and the TOC strike different balance and optimisation in terms of in increased maintenance cost vs in service failure costs (different to Siemens SWT/LM). Ramgate usually get circa 50k Miles per Technical Incident out of the SE units for example (as do the other good depots) but Bedford units were/are the worst by a country mile.

Hence you are effectively comparing Apple and Oranges or rather maintenance spend rather than the units themselves.

It is worth noting that Electrostars have far more electrical and electronic systems than Desiros so there is potentially more to go wrong. Desiro City is much more similar to electrostar with more electrical and electronic systems hence more and different things to go wrong and the steep learning curve Siemens are currently facing. Bombardier have had 15 years of learning with electostars to build on including the new train management (computer) system (TMS) that Aventra uses already having been fitted in the 379s, 387s and 377/6 &/7s. Siemens have had comparatively little learning time and experience on the 380s as their stepping stone and this is coming home to roost.

The big issue for Siemens is with the software which was outsourced (by Rail aka "Mobility") to a different division in Siemens and they are going from zero whereas Bombardier have had the 25+ years since the first iteration of the system was used on DB electric locomotives just after German reunification.

Siemens also spent lots of time complaining that the reality on NR was different to the test track and documentation not being detailed enough so their assumptions weren't always correct (NR 's point was probably that Bombardier just got on with it and made things work).

 

[philjo]

I caught the 08:08 from St Pancras to Blackfriars yesterday morning. (Bromley South service - 8 coach 700)

The train was almost empty when it arrived at St Pancras. I had a bay of 4 seats to myself in the 1st class section at the back. RTT suggests it had left St Albans 14 minutes late and omitted all stops after Radlett?

The screens inside said "Train not in use!"

 

[hwl]

And if and I stress
IF
the 345s simply roll out into service with little to no issue then I predict the end of this manufacturers presence in the supply of new stock. After all the 380s, 350/3/4s and all 700 series have been problematic and if reliability was a key factor then that's their reputation shot to hell.

Searching questions are already being asked at far higher levels than just the top of the rail division in Munich. (also see Siemens Bombardier merger thread)
Can Desiro City as platform be sorted and if so what needs doing? or is it easier to start with a new platform.

Siemens are also facing large cost issues both here and on the continent as Bombardier's current platforms are cheaper for the same functionality and Stadler are cheaper than both so Siemens haven't been winning contracts recently in europe.

It is also probably that they tried to squeeze too much out of the cramped Victorian era Duewag tram factory (a.k.a. Krefeld) as the quality can't be achieved at high throughput.

 

[Minstral25]

At yesterdays stakeholder meeting (which is thus a pubic forum) the Engineering Director of GTR said they are happy with the hardware on the Class 700's but that the software was causing problems. They expect to have resolved these in the few software updates.

He also mentioned that old EMU's (Electrostars and Desiros) work with individual systems operating each of the controls. The 700's are fully fly by wire which means they essentially have a single network cable through the train for control systems (i.e. everything operates by computer). This makes them very different to drive and operate to the old trains - hence the slower familiarization by staff with them than expected.

He said Thameslink would be fully 700's by the Autumn (not July as previously stated)

 

[hwl]

He also mentioned that old EMU's (Electrostars and Desiros) work with individual systems operating each of the controls. The 700's are fully fly by wire which means they essentially have a single network cable through the train for control systems (i.e. everything operates by computer). This makes them very different to drive and operate to the old trains - hence the slower familiarization by staff with them than expected.

Applies equally to the new Aventras too.

 

[EMD]

He also mentioned that old EMU's (Electrostars and Desiros) work with individual systems operating each of the controls. The 700's are fully fly by wire which means they essentially have a single network cable through the train for control systems (i.e. everything operates by computer). This makes them very different to drive and operate to the old trains - hence the slower familiarization by staff with them than expected.

And by staff I presume he meant staff at depots who have to troubleshoot and repair them rather than drivers.

From what I remember one of the key technical stipulations for new Thameslink stock was that they were suppose to achieve reliability levels which were magnitude higher than any other class, and this was so that there are no service disruptions through the core. At the time I did wonder how are they going to pull that off. And I still do.

 

[ComUtoR]

And by staff I presume he meant staff at depots who have to troubleshoot and repair them rather than drivers.

He clearly stated to 'Drive and Operate' That would imply Drivers. However they are super easy to drive and other than the CPBC I haven't found any trouble adapting to these.

The software issues are horrendous. They also have much more of an impact. Struggling to set up a PIS should never happen. For that then to be so closely linked to the doors exacerbates the issue further.

 

[Minstral25]

I'll check my notes but I am sure that "Drive and Operate" were the words used. He was positive about them generally though.

However despite positive reaction to the technology on them, the majority of stakeholders were very unhappy with them, especially the small seating space (pitch, width and hard!!) - no stakeholders in the room representing St Pancras to London Bridge so not really a surprise as mostly longer distance commuting groups.

 

[ScotGG]

but i guess the additional TL services will take the strain off 'some' current SE services.

As a consequence it seems southern will have a surplus of stock...unless it reduces its 455s than it has already proposed or its 313s, which are both of course constrained by leases til 2021.

There's no respite with Thameslink for the majority of SE Metro lines, such as the Bexleyheath line (to Vic and Cannon St/Charing Cross), Orpington line (Vic and Cannon St/Charing Cross, Hayes Line and Sidcup Line. Only the Greenwich line benefits but given peak time trains have been cut heavily no net gain there either compared to pre LB rebuild levels, though it is a net gain on poor levels right now.

Like Crossrail, it offers very little to most SE Metro routes. Those lines are too far away thus taking a bus to reach the Greenwich line negates any time advantages to Canary Wharf, the City or West End from Crossrail or Thameslink.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 350s 450s and 444s are all Siemens maintained so contractually and financially it makes sense for Siemens to minimise in service failures which they get penalised for. The Bombardier 357s, 375s, 376s, 377s, 379s and 387 are all TOC maintained and the TOC strike different balance and optimisation in terms of in increased maintenance cost vs in service failure costs (different to Siemens SWT/LM). Ramgate usually get circa 50k Miles per Technical Incident out of the SE units for example (as do the other good depots) but Bedford units were/are the worst by a country mile.

Hence you are effectively comparing Apple and Oranges or rather maintenance spend rather than the units themselves.

It is worth noting that Electrostars have far more electrical and electronic systems than Desiros so there is potentially more to go wrong. Desiro City is much more similar to electrostar with more electrical and electronic systems hence more and different things to go wrong and the steep learning curve Siemens are currently facing. Bombardier have had 15 years of learning with electostars to build on including the new train management (computer) system (TMS) that Aventra uses already having been fitted in the 379s, 387s and 377/6 &/7s. Siemens have had comparatively little learning time and experience on the 380s as their stepping stone and this is coming home to roost.

The big issue for Siemens is with the software which was outsourced (by Rail aka "Mobility") to a different division in Siemens and they are going from zero whereas Bombardier have had the 25+ years since the first iteration of the system was used on DB electric locomotives just after German reunification.

Siemens also spent lots of time complaining that the reality on NR was different to the test track and documentation not being detailed enough so their assumptions weren't always correct (NR 's point was probably that Bombardier just got on with it and made things work).

Very interesting. Thanks.

 

[Abpj17]

I caught the 08:08 from St Pancras to Blackfriars yesterday morning. (Bromley South service - 8 coach 700)

The train was almost empty when it arrived at St Pancras. I had a bay of 4 seats to myself in the 1st class section at the back. RTT suggests it had left St Albans 14 minutes late and omitted all stops after Radlett?

The screens inside said "Train not in use!"

I had something similar this week. It was very odd - didn't even stop at St Albans so it was pretty empty. It was lovely and quiet. I can't remember what day or exact train it was though!

(And while I'm posting on the thread - another couple of minor 700-caused delays)

 

[SpacePhoenix]

At yesterdays stakeholder meeting (which is thus a pubic forum) the Engineering Director of GTR said they are happy with the hardware on the Class 700's but that the software was causing problems. They expect to have resolved these in the few software updates.

He also mentioned that old EMU's (Electrostars and Desiros) work with individual systems operating each of the controls. The 700's are fully fly by wire which means they essentially have a single network cable through the train for control systems (i.e. everything operates by computer). This makes them very different to drive and operate to the old trains - hence the slower familiarization by staff with them than expected.

He said Thameslink would be fully 700's by the Autumn (not July as previously stated)

I believe that the older Desiros have a controlling computer per coach controlling stuff within that coach, do the 700s have just one controlling computer covering all coaches?

 

[D365]

I believe that the older Desiros have a controlling computer per coach controlling stuff within that coach, do the 700s have just one controlling computer covering all coaches?

What's a "controlling computer" and where do you get that idea from?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's a "controlling computer" and where do you get that idea from?

It's a computer/electronics box that was mentioned a while back, with 1 per coach and a "master" one per unit. iirc it limits the number of older Desiros that can be coupled together

 

[Pumbaa]

You're thinking of power control units and brake control units.

450 are 2 PCU/2 BCU.
444 are 2 PCU/3 BCU.

Each train can have max 6 of each, hence no more than 12/450 and 10/444.

 

[EMD]

Here's some interesting trivia on the class 700 PIS from the man who is involved in designing them. https://youtu.be/a5bLDmrCAgQ?t=6m50s

 

[387star]

When will live updates/to the moment messages being streamed on the cis from control ?Thought that was the plan .. on southerns cis we get messages like 'I can see clearly now the rain has gone.. stay cool have a bottle of water and an ice cream! '

I thought the older electrostars weren't capable of on the moment messages but clearly I'm wrong. . In the past I don't remember real time updates like 'good service across southern ' being streamed on them

Wonder when southern's and Thames link's fleets are due wifi

 

[jon0844]

Southern services talk about engineering works and I can even remember a FCC 317 briefly talking about delays on the tube (but must have been a test as they never did it again!). 700s are connected so it's just a case of setting it up properly.

I did notice they don't check for TfL status reports very often, so that information could quickly be out of date just when needed most.

 

[skyhigh]

700s are connected so it's just a case of setting it up properly.

I did notice they don't check for TfL status reports very often, so that information could quickly be out of date just when needed most.

Maybe it depends on connection strength? The last time I was on one I had look to see how often they updated, and the 'Last updated' time on the bottom corner changed each time.