Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[tsr]

GTR requires platform staff do this, they aren't doing it for the fun of it. It makes no sense to me either, but it is company policy.
As to blowing a whistle on a red light, that shouldn't happen. All those staff are safety critical dispatch staff, even if they aren't always dispatching.

I know it is required of them; the relevant documentation is very clear. But the focus is much more on getting the job done quickly rather than safely, and staff who are working on the platform but not involved in dispatching the train could well end up doing something wrong which they would only have been obliged to notice if they had been dispatching it.

I’m not convinced all the staff I’ve seen making the announcements on platforms are dispatchers, either.

 

[Fred26]

I know it is required of them; the relevant documentation is very clear. But the focus is much more on getting the job done quickly rather than safely, and staff who are working on the platform but not involved in dispatching the train could well end up doing something wrong which they would only have been obliged to notice if they had been dispatching it.

I’m not convinced all the staff I’ve seen making the announcements on platforms are dispatchers, either.

I don't agree with it at all, but their job - other than customer service - is to hurry people up. It's not one I'd want and not one I'd feel safe doing. The thing with dispatch is that you can take your time, because until you're ready and feel it's safe, the train won't leave (very occasionally it does leave by mistake). All of that safety aspect was taken away when it went DOO. What annoyed me was that the RMT made no attempt to fight it.

To be honest, I don't know if all the staff through the core are safety critical/dispatch trained. I do know that at least someone on duty needs to be, in case equipment fails. This is the case on many GN stations.

 

[bramling]

Southern hasn't been hit badly by the TL shambles in particular - in fact, there's been some significant improvements on their side (as you would expect considering they operate 66% of the services in GTR!)

The railway north of the river now seems to be one massive reversing facility for Southern.

If one looks at the FailedPlan2020 timetable, it can be seen how south of the core everything falls neatly into half-hourly clockface services. North of the river things are rather messy - and this includes the Midland side including precious St Albans. The stopping patterns on the Midland side vary through the day, and the crossing movements though the Midland’s various slow ladder crossings have had to be shoehorned in according to what will work. No wonder things fall apart at the first scent of problems.

The whole thing is a sad case of something written for the railway’s convenience (albeit not doing that very well either) as opposed to what passengers actually need.

With no end in sight to the continuing shambles, this has to be one of the most incompetent own-goal disasters ever associated with the railway industry. I hesitate to fully blame it on the railway however, with it being very much a DFT project.

 

[387star]

Most drivers training has AFAIK been completed on the new London Bridge and Canal Tunnels which should help

 

[BRX]

Most drivers training has AFAIK been completed on the new London Bridge and Canal Tunnels which should help

Previous posts here have claimed that there's been no driver training going on in the past few weeks.

 

[43074]

The railway north of the river now seems to be one massive reversing facility for Southern.

If one looks at the FailedPlan2020 timetable, it can be seen how south of the core everything falls neatly into half-hourly clockface services. North of the river things are rather messy - and this includes the Midland side including precious St Albans. The stopping patterns on the Midland side vary through the day, and the crossing movements though the Midland’s various slow ladder crossings have had to be shoehorned in according to what will work. No wonder things fall apart at the first scent of problems.

The whole thing is a sad case of something written for the railway’s convenience (albeit not doing that very well either) as opposed to what passengers actually need.

With no end in sight to the continuing shambles, this has to be one of the most incompetent own-goal disasters ever associated with the railway industry. I hesitate to fully blame it on the railway however, with it being very much a DFT project.

The North side of the River is the better of the two IMO - on the Midland you have 4 variations of stopping patterns on half hourly cycles, generally either non-stop from St Pancras or West Hampstead to St Albans then all stations to Bedford, West Hampstead, Mill Hill Broadway and all stations to Luton or all stations to St Albans; in the peaks you have limited stop Bedfords on top of that but that's about it. The BML is a mess - e.g. variations in stopping patterns on the Redhill routes, the skip stop pattern between Three Bridges and Brighton or the 10/20 service intervals for the Southern Metro services from Sutton to Victoria via Selhurst. Then there's the issue of stopping patterns on the East Coastway which look they were pulled from a hat.

 

[43074]

Previous posts here have claimed that there's been no driver training going on in the past few weeks.

Correct - I understand this is still very much the case.

 

[Class 466]

Well

Correct - I understand this is still very much the case.

Well given there’s no longer (in the past week or so) an army of Driver Managers and GBRF men at Blackfriars, I’d say that more have learnt it. Enroute cancellations have also dropped.

 

[tsr]

Then there's the issue of stopping patterns on the East Coastway which look they were pulled from a hat.

They really weren’t. Of all the Southern routes, the East Coastway was probably the one which was specifically given the most thought in terms of maximising service frequency and minimising overcrowding with the limited resources available. Many other Southern services were kept largely the same or with minimal changes to the structure of the timetable, eg. the Oxted routes and to some extent a lot of coastal stuff via Horsham.

 

[Steve Harris]

As a passenger waiting at City Thameslink....it was diabolical service and communications.

The problem wasn't the Cambridge train. The issue was north of City Thameslink. In terms of the first trains blocked to my knowledge, a West Hampstead was taken out of service into I think the Snow Hill sidings. The Cambridge train was cancelled when it was at City Thameslink (and then uncanceled - see below). But while it said this on the screen, the train and the driver didn't seem to know this and it was around half an hour of doing nothing.

There were no announcements on platforms to customers. Station staff were entirely ineffective - providing mixed messages and unhelpful advice. In their very limited defence, it was also very clear there were getting almost zero comms from any central function and there was some quite hopeless incident management and communication going on higher up.

The problem was essentially no electrics on the northbound from City Tx to an unspecified point (i.e. at least Farringdon, possibly further). Loads of southbound trains went through. After what seemed like an hour, eventually these were paused and northbound trains were run up the southbound tracks.

However, from a City Tx perspective - this was not announced to customers. The station manager mentioned it as a vague possibility after we'd managed to summon him from his office, but that even if it did happen the trains wouldn't stop at City Tx and the doors wouldn't open, not least at the station was meant to be closed by this point). Were were eventually advised to get on the Cambridge train which would be reversing back to Blackfriars. (The Cambridge driver was good at comms within the constraints).

I think the data is probably just very confused - in terms of platforms through the core, it went Blackfriars (North), City (North), Blackfriars (South), City (South), Farringdon (South), St P (South). It was back to normal for the subsequent stations.

While still speaking...a Bedford bound train appeared on the 'wrong' platform at City and lo-and-behold opened its doors. However, no one could get on due to being on the wrong platform. I don't think any of us took the risk of changing platforms in case another appeared - again, not a single announcement from staff on this.

Another one or two Bedford trains rapidly appeared (again, we were on wrong platform...).

In terms of my personal journey, I got the Cambridge train back to Blackfriars. That waited for a while then went North. I changed at St P for a Bedford train. Unfortunately, in GTR's infinite wisdom - the calling pattern didn't change. So this was a slow "all stations" train (staff still call them all stations) but didn't stop at Harpenden, Leagrave, Flitwick or Harlington. So a group of very tired passengers, buggies, and kids, had to change in Luton. To our great relief (and a huge amount of luck at this point), this only required a 5 minute wait and no change of platform.

In contrast, the lady on the St Pancras platforms was incredibly good although she also lacked information from above.

Thanks for clearing that up. It just shows how woeful any contingency planning is in the core.

Personally i would of started to instigate single line working after 15 mins and definitely at the 30 min mark.

This incident just shows how fragile things are now, let alone the 36tph or whatever is was supposed to be.

 

[43074]

They really weren’t. Of all the Southern routes, the East Coastway was probably the one which was specifically given the most thought in terms of maximising service frequency and minimising overcrowding with the limited resources available. Many other Southern services were kept largely the same or with minimal changes to the structure of the timetable, eg. the Oxted routes and to some extent a lot of coastal stuff via Horsham.

There are still lots of anomalies down there though - e.g. the faster services along the Coast to/from Brighton terminate at Hastings in the Eastbound direction but start from Ore Westbound, on Saturdays Eastbound Brighton to Hastings services call at Moulsecoomb but not Westbound even though during the week they call in both directions, meanwhile sluggish 171s are being used on all stations services between Hastings and Eastbourne despite it being electrified etc. I'm not suggesting no thought went into it, I know quite a lot of planning went into the compromise solution giving 4tph between Eastbourne and Hastings in place of the Brighton to Ashford through services, but there are still one or two oddities in the pattern which don't make it particularly simple for the average punter.

 

[jon0844]

GTR requires platform staff do this, they aren't doing it for the fun of it. It makes no sense to me either, but it is company policy.
As to blowing a whistle on a red light, that shouldn't happen. All those staff are safety critical dispatch staff, even if they aren't always dispatching.

I agree. They may not give the tip to the driver but they do have the safety critical competence (for now) to do so if required (e.g. DOO camera fault) and so can still check the signal.

That said, I'm not sure there's any harm hustling people on to a train even if there's no signal yet. The driver won't be hearing a whistle in the cab anyway.

 

[Fred26]

I agree. They may not give the tip to the driver but they do have the safety critical competence (for now) to do so if required (e.g. DOO camera fault) and so can still check the signal.

That said, I'm not sure there's any harm hustling people on to a train even if there's no signal yet. The driver won't be hearing a whistle in the cab anyway.

Even if he can hear it, what's to say it's from the same platform he's sat on?

 

[jon0844]

Even if he can hear it, what's to say it's from the same platform he's sat on?

That too. No driver does anything when hearing a whistle, full stop.

 

[Abpj17]

Thanks for clearing that up. It just shows how woeful any contingency planning is in the core.

Personally i would of started to instigate single line working after 15 mins and definitely at the 30 min mark.

This incident just shows how fragile things are now, let alone the 36tph or whatever is was supposed to be.

The core is fragile. But it's the lack of contingency planning and communications that really compounds it. From City, you get advised to walk to Farringdon or Blackfriars (not entirely safe late at night; most people wouldn't actually find Farringdon; and pretty unpleasant with luggage and/or buggies/young children). And when it's a core problem, it's unlikely trains are running from those stations...More than once I've shared an uber with other passengers to St Pancras just to improve the chances of getting a train.

There is no real sign of any improvements in terms of contingency planning and communications either. It's really bad, and stuck in that rut.

 

[uglymonkey]

That too. No driver does anything when hearing a whistle, full stop.

There was an issue years ago with the 1st generation DMU's . The guard used to hit the internal buzzer "buzz, Buzz" for right away. When the driver heard it in their cab, they used to sometimes pull away without checking the platform starter signal first - result SPAD.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was an issue years ago with the 1st generation DMU's . The guard used to hit the internal buzzer "buzz, Buzz" for right away. When the driver heard it in their cab, they used to sometimes pull away without checking the platform starter signal first - result SPAD.

The term was "ding , ding and away" - a horrendous head on collision at Paisley Gilmour St in 1979 , drove the rulebook change on "giving a train away" only where the controlling signal (where provided) - was showing a proceed aspect. Common sense really . but it should have been implemented far , far earlier.

 

[Mag_seven]

a horrendous head on collision at Paisley Gilmour St in 1979

I remember that - friends of my family were on the DMU involved and fortunately for them they were at the back of the train.

 

[uglymonkey]

The term was "ding , ding and away" - a horrendous head on collision at Paisley Gilmour St in 1979 , drove the rulebook change on "giving a train away" only where the controlling signal (where provided) - was showing a proceed aspect. Common sense really . but it should have been implemented far , far earlier.

That's the example I was thinking of - Thanks !

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I remember that - friends of my family were on the DMU involved and fortunately for them they were at the back of the train.

Not a good experience - I hope that they received suitable post accident "chain of care and support" ......

Slightly off topic I Know - but I remember it being knocked into us as trainees , and to be both mindful and observational of any transgressions to the rule out on the real railway. Have to say , it was a change instantly taken on , pretty well everywhere.

 

[hemsl]

Does anyone know if/when GTR will start reinstating services removed in the emergency timetable? My experience of the morning peak from the south is that it is now relatively reliable, certainly much better than late May. The remaining frustration for me is the 62-minute gap in the timetable between 06.13 and 07.15 departing East Grinstead for services through the core.

I appreciate that in other parts of the network GTR have yet to get the timetable working, but where progress has been made it would be good to start building the timetable back up to what we were promised.

 

[ijmad]

Does anyone know if/when GTR will start reinstating services removed in the emergency timetable? My experience of the morning peak from the south is that it is now relatively reliable, certainly much better than late May. The remaining frustration for me is the 62-minute gap in the timetable between 06.13 and 07.15 departing East Grinstead for services through the core.

I appreciate that in other parts of the network GTR have yet to get the timetable working, but where progress has been made it would be good to start building the timetable back up to what we were promised.

I doubt we'll see any substantial changes until December at the earliest.

 

[tsr]

There are still lots of anomalies down there though - e.g. the faster services along the Coast to/from Brighton terminate at Hastings in the Eastbound direction but start from Ore Westbound, on Saturdays Eastbound Brighton to Hastings services call at Moulsecoomb but not Westbound even though during the week they call in both directions, meanwhile sluggish 171s are being used on all stations services between Hastings and Eastbourne despite it being electrified etc. I'm not suggesting no thought went into it, I know quite a lot of planning went into the compromise solution giving 4tph between Eastbourne and Hastings in place of the Brighton to Ashford through services, but there are still one or two oddities in the pattern which don't make it particularly simple for the average punter.

A lot of services around the GTR network have been slowed by making them all-stations when they used to be fast. However, so far as I can make out, on the East Coastway, this hasn’t significantly damaged stock availability or service frequencies. I do agree the timetable is fairly complex.

As for terminating at Hastings vice Ore, I haven’t read any specific comment on why this might be, but an informed guess would be that it is to avoid DOO trains terminating and needing to be locked up at an unstaffed halt. Unfortunately an OBS cannot be guaranteed - and drivers are unlikely to want to lock up the train themselves before entering the siding. This can lead to delays and disruption.

I agree. They may not give the tip to the driver but they do have the safety critical competence (for now) to do so if required (e.g. DOO camera fault) and so can still check the signal.

That said, I'm not sure there's any harm hustling people on to a train even if there's no signal yet. The driver won't be hearing a whistle in the cab anyway.

Many of them can dispatch trains, but occasions do occur when the station is staffed but no dispatch competent staff are available.

As for whistles and drivers not hearing, nothing could be further from the truth. Acoustics can mean you hear all sorts of random stuff. Certainly I’ve been in train cabs and heard a whistle through a closed door from at least 8 coaches away. And when someone hears an audible cue associated with departure then it can trigger them to do the wrong stuff.

It’s enlightening to read the safety reports where there are all sorts of dispatch sequences and other safety matters getting out of sync. You get drivers departing when the CD (Close Doors) indicators are lit but not the RA; guards being given the RA instead of the train safety check tip; drivers completely misreading signals even when they’re stood with the relevant aspect staring at them through the windscreen; drivers ignoring the RA they’ve just set - all sorts really.

 

[387star]

I don't understand why Peterborough and Cambridge services don't go through the core on weekends

I think the main training requirement now is for the GN side to learn the TL side and vice versa

 

[387star]

There are still lots of anomalies down there though - e.g. the faster services along the Coast to/from Brighton terminate at Hastings in the Eastbound direction but start from Ore Westbound, on Saturdays Eastbound Brighton to Hastings services call at Moulsecoomb but not Westbound even though during the week they call in both directions, meanwhile sluggish 171s are being used on all stations services between Hastings and Eastbourne despite it being electrified etc. I'm not suggesting no thought went into it, I know quite a lot of planning went into the compromise solution giving 4tph between Eastbourne and Hastings in place of the Brighton to Ashford through services, but there are still one or two oddities in the pattern which don't make it particularly simple for the average punter.

Annoying bizarre there must be a reason ?

Sunday Vic to Pompey services go via Redhill and stop at Coulsdon South..

Why is this ?

I heard Cambridge services were to go via Redhill at weekends . Is this stop temporary?

 

[OwenB]

So... I survived the Sunday service unscathed. The 10.57 HAT-KGX was on time, as was the 22.09 FPK-HAT. Fair play.

 

[bramling]

The North side of the River is the better of the two IMO - on the Midland you have 4 variations of stopping patterns on half hourly cycles, generally either non-stop from St Pancras or West Hampstead to St Albans then all stations to Bedford, West Hampstead, Mill Hill Broadway and all stations to Luton or all stations to St Albans; in the peaks you have limited stop Bedfords on top of that but that's about it. The BML is a mess - e.g. variations in stopping patterns on the Redhill routes, the skip stop pattern between Three Bridges and Brighton or the 10/20 service intervals for the Southern Metro services from Sutton to Victoria via Selhurst. Then there's the issue of stopping patterns on the East Coastway which look they were pulled from a hat.

That's what I thought ... until I started putting the timetable into Simsig for West Hampstead PSB, which has given me the dubious pleasure of being able to see what every service does. There are loads of variations to any kind of standard pattern between London and Bedford, mainly in the peaks - for example which services run fast from St Pancras to West Hampstead and which don't, whether they call at Kentish, whether they cross over at Radlett, Harpenden or Leagrave etc. Then there is the complete and utter mess which is Bedford - trying to terminate Thameslink services whilst at the same time having up EMT services using the up platforms and sharing the lines between Bedford and Bedford South Junction.

Did anyone inside Thameslink Programme actually think about whether the infrastructure north of the river was capable of running this service reliably? It really is no surprise at all that it falls apart at the first hint of disruption. The GN side is no better - whilst we've got a couple of extra platforms at Cambridge and Peterborough this was really about catching up with what the old timetable needed than providing contingency for this one.

 

[Aictos]

There are still lots of anomalies down there though - e.g. the faster services along the Coast to/from Brighton terminate at Hastings in the Eastbound direction but start from Ore Westbound, on Saturdays Eastbound Brighton to Hastings services call at Moulsecoomb but not Westbound even though during the week they call in both directions, meanwhile sluggish 171s are being used on all stations services between Hastings and Eastbourne despite it being electrified etc. I'm not suggesting no thought went into it, I know quite a lot of planning went into the compromise solution giving 4tph between Eastbourne and Hastings in place of the Brighton to Ashford through services, but there are still one or two oddities in the pattern which don't make it particularly simple for the average punter.

The highlighted text is what I don't understand, as the Brighton to Ashford Int services no longer run (They're now Eastbourne to Ashford Int and Brighton to Ore) why couldn't they truncate the service at Hastings and increase the existing hourly service over the Marshlink between Hastings and Ashford Int to half hourly using the 171s and using the 377s between Brighton and Hastings?

It would mean no need for 171s to run west of Hastings towards Eastbourne over electrified track as well as making most use of the fact that longer trains can be used between Brighton and Hastings and finally ensuring that if any 171s are spare to use them on the Oxted line.

You have no need to to then terminate and shut down the SN services upon arriving at Hastings as they would form their next service upon arriving apart from these forming ECS and if the infrastructure supported it, you could even have same platform interchange between the two services at Hastings.

The existing 4tph between Eastbourne and Hastings would remain but would start back from Brighton so wonder why wasn't this considered?

 

[Stampy]

-ignore- seems to be double posting all of a sudden

 

[Stampy]

I don't understand why Peterborough and Cambridge services don't go through the core on weekends

I think the main training requirement now is for the GN side to learn the TL side and vice versa

If they start doing this by Saturday 8th November, it'll certainly make my Peterborough - Crawley and return trip easier!!!