The Future of this forum

[telstarbox]

An additional thought refers to thread drift. Its not exactly appropriate to use the report button on a thread that seems to be drifting, and certainly not to see where the right time would be. I'll illustrate with one of the few threads I've started myself recently, referring to the remarkable incidences of Southend Airport Station tickets being refused on board. It became a discussion of planning issues around Southend Airport. Where would the right time have arisen to 'report' the drift? - i

It can be hard to know when the topic has drifted too far. The recent thread about the Oldham Metrolink opening date was a bad example which has descended into arguments about Metrolink in general. There are valid points on either side but nothing that hasn't said before. Instead I've been following the much more informative thread on Skyscraper City, which for an architecture/construction forum has a great level of 'railway' detail.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Oh my goodness. This is becoming a bit like flyertalk.com. It always seems the ylike to bash the OP. This seems like an excellent forum to me from what I have seen so far. Hope all you guys that are a little ****ed off stay around a little while longer. I won't apologize and say "Hope it wasn't me" -because I am not like that so I know it was not. Please stay around and dont let the trolls get you down. Hug a trollslayer today.

 

[Schnellzug]

Mock those leaving at your peril, for it will just compound the opinions that many have held for quite some time.

oh for heavens sake, do people not have senses of humour any more?

 

[trentside]

I've got to agree that there are times when this forum has its problems, but I must acknowledge that those problems are shared by many other internet forums. At the end of the day, a large community such as this is never going to share one unanimous opinion - it would be boring if it did - but sometimes, the arguments do get too off topic, and seem to be about point scoring and an (at times) inability to take criticism or a joke. I've reported such things in the past, and the moderators have always been proactive in dealing with it.

I usually choose to stay out of threads like this - or those that descend into arguments - as I come here to be educated and informed about current goings on in the UK rail scene. I have no intention of stopping that anytime soon, as on the whole I find this forum a friendly and helpful place to be.

 

[Butts]

The impression I get as a relative newcomer is that some members take things a little to seriously. It sometimes feels like there exists a clique that "gang up" to preclude views that may be opposed to their own being aired.

A compromise has to be found between the various category of member from the professional to the enthusiast through to the casual visitor.

Personally I can't see why people feel it necessary to "run to the moderators" to report threads they disagree with, rather than using logical discussion to alert the poster to the error of their ways. Perhaps they are incapable of this course of action and prefer to hide behind someone else.

Of all the posts I have read (thousands) none have ever induced me to report someone - am I unique in this ? Tolerance is the foundation of democracy.

 

[WestCoast]

Flyertalk.com by any chance?

Oh my goodness. This is becoming a bit like flyertalk.com. It always seems the ylike to bash the OP. This seems like an excellent forum to me from what I have seen so far. Hope all you guys that are a little ****ed off stay around a little while longer. I won't apologize and say "Hope it wasn't me" -because I am not like that so I know it was not. Please stay around and dont let the trolls get you down. Hug a trollslayer today.

That wasn't the forum I was specifically referring to, but I have read the one you mention on occasions and it seems to have a band of members who feel that they are better than others because they have some "high status" in a frequent traveller club. I have never seen anything like that on here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It can be hard to know when the topic has drifted too far. The recent thread about the Oldham Metrolink opening date was a bad example which has descended into arguments about Metrolink in general. There are valid points on either side but nothing that hasn't said before. Instead I've been following the much more informative thread on Skyscraper City, which for an architecture/construction forum has a great level of 'railway' detail.

The Oldham Metrolink thread is a perfect example of a thread that could be very informative in terms of updates to the status of the expanding system like the Skyscrapercity one. However, it seems to have descended into a Metrolink vs. Heavy Rail debate, which should be discussed on another thread (or not at all).

 

[90019]

Let me just be succinct and say that there will be disagreements.

Indeed, there always will be.

We have different perspectives on different issues.

Very true.

We should simply agree to disagree.

In most cases, yes. But there are times when one side is just plain wrong, and should accept defeat, rather than carry on digging.

Calling someone an idiot, moron, or retard because you disagree with them is wrong.

Has anyone other than you mentioned this sort of thing in the thread?

That's what happened to me at Subchat and New York City Transit Forums.

Do you really have to keep bringing that up?

Now let's stop fighting and get back to talking about trains in England and around the world.

What's it like living over there in Canada?

 

[newbie babs]

I belong to quite a few different forums and sometimes unhappiness by members is seen and they voice their opinions on the forum. Sometimes this gets out of hand.
I think this forum like one of the other forums is doing their best to alter with changing the rules.
What I don't understand is how some members and ex members still don't like the moderation. Sometimes on the forum but more often away from the forum they express their dislike of the moderators and sometimes is horrible to read and very aggressive.
I have had my arguments with moderators and forum members on here but I have learnt to take a step back, calm down and think about it.
Life is too short and if all you can do is argue to the point of bad mouthing your really should not be on a forum in the first place.
Discussion is good, and each person has their own take on each thread, it does not mean its a right opinion or a wrong one but its an opinion. As long as its not threatening , aggressive or abusive then that opinion is just as valid as anyone's.
I like the forum and I hope its change adds to its value.

 

[185]

If this approach continues you will drive away anyone with any kind of operational experience and this forum will become nothing more than a place for malcontents to bash the railways ( while professing to support them)

Many of us support the railway, to the extent that our entire career has been spent working on it. It's said by some to be in our blood. But many of us don't buy into the lies and propaganda from bus company franchisees who are slowly trying to destroy a great railway for their own financial gain.

 

[90019]

But many of us don't buy into the lies and propaganda from bus company franchisees who are slowly trying to destroy a great railway for their own financial gain.

Some of us are getting tired of the members who use every single opportunity they can find to shoehorn their own agenda into any thread possible.

 

[Pen Mill]

This is the liveliest railway forum I know by some way.
25 threads updated per hour nearly every hour.

The forum looks to have a future from where I sit.

 

[LE Greys]

Well, as I see it, this forum has a future. Whether I want to be a part of it or not is really up to me, but I see it as worth carrying on for the moment. In general, at least compared with some of the other fora I've been on, it is fairly reasonable debate without some of the insults hurled for no apparent reason. There are some threads that get out of control, and it's noticeable. Sometimes the best thing if you get involved is to say your piece, explain where you are coming from and just stop. Even better would be not to get involved in the first place, but that's another issue.

I know I can be argumentative and dogmatic, it runs in the family, and I hope that hasn't annoyed anyone. Still, I try my best to think about things and attempt to be accurate, especially about some of the information on things that happened in the past (having a lot of railway books helps). Maybe part of it is the conflation of fact and opinion, and it can be hard to distinguish the two in your own mind. Also, because it's typed, it's hard to detect the tone and recorded for the entire existence of the forum - will it ever be deleted? Well, that's one of the flaws of the Internet, at least in my opinion. Was I having a discussion with someone, I might have time to correct myself, or apologise quickly (a skill worth having) to help smooth things over.

However, one good thing about RailUK is that it gives people a chance. I'm not saying the moderators are lax, I'm saying that they give people the opportunity to back up what they are saying, or at least the opportunity to prove they genuinely hold that view.

 

[scotsman]

oh for heavens sake, do people not have senses of humour any more?

Erm, maybe your joke just wasn't funny?

Personally I can't see why people feel it necessary to "run to the moderators" to report threads they disagree with, rather than using logical discussion to alert the poster to the error of their ways. Perhaps they are incapable of this course of action and prefer to hide behind someone else.

Of all the posts I have read (thousands) none have ever induced me to report someone - am I unique in this ? Tolerance is the foundation of democracy.

Logical discussion has been tried so many times and got nowhere, but the fact that a good debate (or so it appears) has ensued tends to see little action taken unless things get personal.

 

[SS4]

I think the forum is largely fine and it'd do some members good to realise that no member is bigger than the forum as a whole. I've been in some forums where there are cliques, sometimes it's a closed shop with moderation (ie: no matter how good you are if you don't get on with the mods you won't become one) or where senior members become elitist and belittle new members or those they arbitrarily dislike or disagree with. There is none of that here I'm glad to say and moderation is fair and swift.

In my opinion the repetition of content is a greater threat to the future of the forum than members. Over and over again the same topics come up despite it being adequately answered in a search or it was impossible to draw a conclusion. One need only look in the Fares section to see how often the OP doesn't contain the details in the sticky.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

My basic proposal to solve a number of problems such as name-calling is getting another moderator on the team. When I'm online trying to post (as I'm on moderation) it takes ages for the post to get through even with 2 moderators and 1 administrator online. It seems to suggest that the team is too stretched imo.

 

[richw]

I recently had a little chuckle at a user disputing something one of our xc staff had stated in a thread discussing xc. The poster had basically implied everything the staff in question had put was wrong,
Would it be possible for members verified to be genuine staff, to have their name highlighted a different colour, or a marker under their name?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My basic proposal to solve a number of problems such as name-calling is getting another moderator on the team. When I'm online trying to post (as I'm on moderation) it takes ages for the post to get through even with 2 moderators and 1 administrator online. It seems to suggest that the team is too stretched imo.

If you recall, on 23rd March 2012, yorkie made a posting on Forum Updates to say as a result of increased forum administration requirements, that Mike395 was becoming a new administrator. The last new moderator appointed was Greenback not too very long ago.

 

[sonic2009]

My basic proposal to solve a number of problems such as name-calling is getting another moderator on the team. When I'm online trying to post (as I'm on moderation) it takes ages for the post to get through even with 2 moderators and 1 administrator online. It seems to suggest that the team is too stretched imo.

I don't believe they are too overloaded with work, you have to remember that many of the mods and admin, do have a full time job or have other commitments.

I personally feel they do the best they can.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

My basic proposal to solve a number of problems such as name-calling is getting another moderator on the team. When I'm online trying to post (as I'm on moderation) it takes ages for the post to get through even with 2 moderators and 1 administrator online. It seems to suggest that the team is too stretched imo.

Think about it - 'on moderation'.

The whole point of that is that it limits what your contributions, by making sure only the posts worthy of being posted get through. If everything was approved instantly, there'd be no point in being on it, you'd just keep posting and posting and posting! I am speaking as someone who did two long, painful bouts on it. Think about what you say every time you type. Make sure it is relevant, understandable and worthy of being posted. Think of it as almost like writing for a magazine - only your best work makes it through and it takes a while for it to get there.

It isn't a punishment, it is there to help you. The delay is there to limit you and make you used to posting less frequently but posting of better quality. However, it will only work if you let it. I would strongly recommend you do not complain about the time it takes for it to be approved, if it is worthy of being approved, it will be, and you'll feel all the better for it when you come off it.

 

[DavidBrown]

I think that one key thing to highlight is that, speaking personally, I've found that all internet forums have gone down this same downhill route in recent months and years, and people have highlighted the same issues that have been raised here, so it's certaintly not a problem that's confined to this forum or the members, and in that respect finding any particular solution is nigh-on impossible - there is no particular or specific issue with this forum, it's sadly just the nature of internet forums at the moment.

The other thing is that any particular issues that I or anyone else may have I believe generally aren't the type of thing where hard rules and moderation can be either justified or practical to impose. For example, one thing that I have noticed is a very strong dislike for the Olympics on this forum, and how it will crop up into every topic I read (though yes, I appreciate the irony of me bringing it up in this thread!), which makes for a very tedious and repetitive read. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion and is entitled to express it, and no one post can be singled out for being seen as offensive or annoying, it's the general tedium and repetitiveness that makes many threads and discussions a pain to read rather than being informative and/or entertaining. The same is true for many other subjects and/or opinions (especially politically-related), and it has got to the stage of wading through page upon page of opinions to find a single, informative factual post.

 

[theblackwatch]

If you recall, on 23rd March 2012, yorkie made a posting on Forum Updates to say as a result of increased forum administration requirements, that Mike395 was becoming a new administrator. The last new moderator appointed was Greenback not too very long ago.

Indeed. In the past year we have increased the forum staffing by 50% as a result of the forum's growth.

Perhaps it's also worth pointing out that when we had a survey in December last year, 91% of people thought the moderating was 'about right' with the remaining 9% being split almost equally between 'too harsh' and 'too lenient' - we will never keep everyone happy.

SS4 makes a good point too regarding no member being bigger than the forum as a whole (and this even applies to staff members - if one of us left, the forum wouldn't fold!). We now have over 1000 members visiting the forum per day normally, which compares with 260 on 4th Feb 2009 and 710 on the same day two years later, and the number of new threads is on the increase too.

 

[ainsworth74]

Would it be possible for members verified to be genuine staff, to have their name highlighted a different colour, or a marker under their name?

I browse another forum that uses this technique to identify members that have practical experience (in this case it's a military forum so it identifies members who have either served or are involved in defense industries) and it works quite well over there. I've been wondering if a similar system might be of some use here.

 

[Ivo]

I browse another forum that uses this technique to identify members that have practical experience (in this case it's a military forum so it identifies members who have either served or are involved in defense industries) and it works quite well over there. I've been wondering if a similar system might be of some use here.

Might that not be considered "elitist" though? What if other people start ignoring those who do not hold such distinction?

 

[ainsworth74]

Might that not be considered "elitist" though? What if other people start ignoring those who do not hold such distinction?

Those are things to be considered for sure but it works on the other forum where I've seen it implemented. It was just a thought anyway

 

[MikeWh]

Time for some input from me. First some background; I am a member of a few other forums and for my sins I am also a moderator on one of them. The topic is completely different but lots of the issues highlighted here are the same.

It will always be impossible to please everyone. As a forum grows, and this one is growing at a rapid rate, the place changes. When it's quite small lots of people personally know many other members and thus a lot of the threads appear like conversations that might be had face to face. When you have had lots of new members, particularly youngsters who aren't really clued up on how a forum should work (Not trying to over generalise, so please don't take offence), conversations take on a different perspective. Members are seen as faceless usernames and misunderstandings can often escallate quickly. The fact that some forums are completely unregulated doesn't help because people think they can act in the same way on any forum.

This forum is a very well run forum, imo. From what I've seen the moderation is firm but fair. Hell, I even fell foul of it myself shortly after I'd joined because a post I made broke a rule that I'd never considered would be a problem. I was peeved at the time, even thought about leaving, but it's all forgotten now.

As places evolve, sometimes they alienate some of the members. This can be difficult, especially if it's someone well liked or long standing, but in most cases it's important not to try too hard to react. If someone doesn't like a place (be it a pub, club or online forum) then it's natural to drift away and find other things to do. There's one particular forum where I was very active for about 2 years, then my interests changed and the place no longer seemed relevant to my life. Places like RailUK are great because there is a very strong community. I've got quite a few real-life friends on here now, but if I was ever to lose interest in railways it's unlikely that I'd stay around.

One of the great things about RailUK is that they are evolving and the staff actively seek views of the members to help them follow the right path. As the membership grows it becomes increasingly difficult to please everyone, and people who find that the place isn't quite what they thought it was will leave. With the mechanisms to discuss/liaise with the forum staff (report, message to the staff, questionnaires, etc) anyone who either won't use them or doesn't agree with the outcome is probably not worth having as a member.

I've waffled more than I intended, but the crux of my view is that there is very little wrong here compared to most other forums.

Finally, I'm all too aware that I do sometimes post in an inappropriate way. Although I try to read every post back before hitting submit, I'm aware that I do come across wrongly sometimes. If I've upset anyone along the way then I'm sorry. If you tell me then I can improve, but if you let me carry on regardless then how can I know. Sometimes all it needs is a quiet PM to explain why someone is upsetting others and they will try to change.

 

[Eagle]

I browse another forum that uses this technique to identify members that have practical experience (in this case it's a military forum so it identifies members who have either served or are involved in defense industries) and it works quite well over there. I've been wondering if a similar system might be of some use here.

Or possibly just include an optional "occupation" field in the sidebar of posts, perhaps (not sure if vBulletin would be up to displaying this only for some users—i.e. only those whose occupation is railway-related and possibly be subject to being verified in some way).

 

[RPM]

Or possibly just include an optional "occupation" field in the sidebar of posts, perhaps (not sure if vBulletin would be up to displaying this only for some users—i.e. only those whose occupation is railway-related and possibly be subject to being verified in some way).

The railway is a broad church (with a small c) though. Marking me as a railwayman might give me more gravitas when I'm talking from experience but there are still areas where I am unqualified to comment. Having that designation might lead someone to pontificate beyond their actual operational experience, whilst cloaked in an aura of authenticity.

There is also the issue of anonymity. Personally I don't go to any great lengths to hide my identity and I just try to make sure I don't post anything my employer might consider controversial, but some rail industry employees here do wish to remain completely unidentifiable and a badge proclaiming that are railway staff might not help this cause.

Going back to the main thrust of this thread, I hadn't particularly noticed the alleged drift/decline/drop in standards, at least not to any greater degree than we see it in life generally. However, I've grown a thick railway skin so I'm perhaps not the most perceptive of observers. Nevertheless I do get the impression that the moderating team are on-the-ball, anxious to maintain balance and aware that the forum needs to grow and adapt to changes so having rattled their cage perhaps we should now let them ruminate and then respond as appropriate?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sometimes all it needs is a quiet PM to explain why someone is upsetting others and they will try to change.

I have done this in the past to some obviously very young members who have made their postings in the heat of the moment without the maturity to reflect on how such postings may have been received by forum members in general. This is far better with the very young members, who then find themselves "under attack" in vigorous posting responses from other forum members.

I always explain why I have sent the response in the form of a PM rather than making a posting and always make the offer for them to approach me by PM at any time for any further advice they may require in future, where it is stated that I will help if it is in my knowledge remit

 

[WCMLaddict]

I like this forum a lot. I've been reading it for a while and started contributing a bit recently.

To answer the topic of this thread: The forum has a bright future IMO. As moderators mentioned the popularity is growing and the amounts of new posts each day are very optimistic. I suppose that with the popularity and higher number of users the quality of content will have to go down a bit. At the end of the day we all have been there

Regarding the rail staff. It would be very sad if more people with hands on experience choose to stop posting. But it would be equally sad if we will see heavy moderation based on the poster's rail experience or the lack of it. I think we all automatically (to some extents) attribute more importance to posters that have the inside knowledge, I certainly do.

The staff bashing must be very annoying for the staff but I must say it is very often equalled by the train user/passenger bashing. It definitely works both ways but it does seem that rail employees do get very defensive and I can very often understand it as usually we get only one side of the story.
On the other hand we get to some funny (for an observer like me) situations. Recently in one topic there was a TOC employee being criticised by a TOC employee for criticising another TOC employee.

I like the idea of showing somehow if the poster is a railway employee. It will be elitist a bit but I think it is a good idea.

 

[telstarbox]

Firstly I've got big respect for the rail staff who enter into discussion on the forum. It must be frustrating offering your perspective from the inside but then having to defend yourself against enthusiasts who haven't "been there" but think they know better.

However, I don't think accrediting rail staff is the right move. There are people on this forum with all sorts of expertise - in law, government, business, planning and so on - as well as rail experts. They can offer equally valid information and I think it would be unfair to say that just because someone works for a TOC that whatever they say should be taken as gospel. We sometimes hear on the forum about staff who get it wrong and there's no reason that self-identified rail staff on the forum would always be correct in what they post.