The Gibb report in Southern Rail. Is it fair?

[Fincra5]

Why would it?

It's a report examining why performance has been poor - see the terms of reference.

The report correctly points out that the main cause (but by no means the only cause) of this was the industrial action we've seen, which while Gibb explicitly says he does not support it, is characterised in the report as "supported through votes cast by many of the people; their members".

Gibb also says that "negotiations must be entered into" by the TOC. He does not state how to resolve that dispute, because it was not his remit to.



DOO and disability issues are not necessarily enemies - Gibb does not say what DOO should look like and wasn't charged with examining the impact DOO had on passengers requiring assistance.

NO but if you're going to sit there and point a large chunk of the blame on the unions it should at least divulge as to why, wouldn't you say? Other than to just say DOO over an over :roll:

 

[HH]

As Sir Humphrey might have said, "Never Commission a Report unless you know in advance what it's findings will be".

 

[ComUtoR]

[tinfoilhat] I noticed that he has been given a new job... [/tinfoilhat]

 

[physics34]

He seems to have gone to considerable effort to argue for the electrification of the Uckfield diesel island - it will be interesting to see if anyone listens(I suspect not).

the thing is with Bi-mode flex trains looking like a possible future choice, this would be a much cheaper option.

 

[Domeyhead]

It's a real shame that both Mr Gibbs cares so little for disabled people by wanting wise spread DOO.

If the on board supervisor is freed up from messing around with door closing at every stop then surely they have more time to assist disabled people? Where does it say that the total removal of staff from the train is the intention?

 

[DarloRich]

If the on board supervisor is freed up from messing around with door closing at every stop then surely they have more time to assist disabled people? Where does it say that the total removal of staff from the train is the intention?

Many of us believe that the intention behind these changes is to, ultimately, remove the staff from the trains. Many of us think this is stage 1 in a larger plan. You may not.

 

[TEW]

If the on board supervisor is freed up from messing around with door closing at every stop then surely they have more time to assist disabled people? Where does it say that the total removal of staff from the train is the intention?

The OBS is still required to go to a door at every stop to look out for any passengers on the platform who require assistance, they haven't really been freed up much at all.

 

[tsr]

All I will say for now is that the report might have been fair if it were accurate, but many of the technical details are so grossly inaccurate that it serves little purpose other than to antagonise.

Some of these errors are so glaringly obvious that they should be considered embarrassing.

I am still in the process of scrutinising the report for myself. However, the Uckfield Line section is especially concerning.

 

[speedy_sticks]

If the on board supervisor is freed up from messing around with door closing at every stop then surely they have more time to assist disabled people? Where does it say that the total removal of staff from the train is the intention?

I would strongly suggest either borrowing a wheelchair yourself or coming with me on a jouney.

The idea of the guard being at the door at every stop is that they are able to see who gets on and off the train (including disabled passengers). Simply poking your head out for a few seconds doesn't give you enough time to focus, people who are in wheelchairs are sitting down. My point is, if the platform is busy, you may not see the wheelchair passenger until the platform is empty of people getting on. This is a tried, tested and proven to be the best form off assistance and monitoring of passengers.

At the moment you have little idea if their is an OBS or not on your train

 

[jon0844]

Did anyone else notice the comment about increased rail usage at stations that he determined was down to people buying cheap Gold Cards? I found it rather amusing given some stations must be reporting huge ticket sales but low passenger usage.

 

[30907]

Did anyone else notice the comment about increased rail usage at stations that he determined was down to people buying cheap Gold Cards? I found it rather amusing given some stations must be reporting huge ticket sales but low passenger usage.

The one I read was specific to Newhaven Harbour (entirely plausible, especially if the increase correlates to a fare rise in Ryde or Lichfield or wherever) - is there a more general one?

 

[30907]

I am still in the process of scrutinising the report for myself. However, the Uckfield Line section is especially concerning.

Having skimmed that section, and knowing you to be well informed, I look forward to reading your concerns.

 

[the sniper]

Of course any decision relating to franchise termination should also take into account the current DOO related dispute with RMT and ASLE&F. Whilst you are already determining the strategic direction of this dispute, the introduction of a state owned and governed operator would mean that every aspect of the dispute would fall under the direction of the Secretary of State. Current state owned and governed rail companies do not have a track record of rapid decision making and devolved negotiating powers. Given the implications of any decision for other TOCs such as Northern, Anglia and London Midland, the industry would be within a whisker of national bargaining on DOO and other matters. In my view this would inevitably lead to national pay bargaining, and significantly strengthen the negotiating influence of RMT and ASLE&F. This is why they constantly seek national discussions on numerous subjects. There is a risk of "roll back" on DOO; for example the introduction of OBS style employees on large operations that have historically only had drivers, such as Thameslink, Great Northern, Chiltern etc., and there may also be implications for London Underground, which is all DOO. In a steady state TOC this is less of an issue, as "do nothing" keeps the trains running. In GTR "do nothing" is not an option, so negotiations must be entered into.

For me this highlights the reality of the OBS grade, the utter worthlessness of it, to anyone who has faith in it being a model for the future network wide. Why would the DfT want to "risk" a national discussion that would end up seeing the OBS model being rolled out to existing DOO routes, or even to other routes/TOCs being converted to DOO...?

Hang on Mr Gibb, the OBS grade is being introduced for the benefit of the passengers, or so we're led to believe by the DfT. Why would it be considered a 'risk' to introduce it somewhere where it was just delivering the benefits of the OBS grades, rather than mealy acting as a transitional grade to allow the eventual phasing out of a second person...? :roll:

EDIT: It also rather gives the game away for what's presumably coming in the next West Mids franchise. 'DCO'/DOO wasn't a requirement in the West Mids ITT, so he must be familiar with the bids...

 

[BestWestern]

This is splendid work from a man with a superb record in the industry. He worked his way up from clerk in BR days to top director. Everyone I know looks up to him, which is why he was chosen to look at the Southern problems. He has firmly nailed RMT's industrial action, official & unofficial as the main cause of the misery commuters have been subjected to.
The serious media have picked it up & laid the blame exactly where it should lie,rmt. Well done Mr Gibbs for a thoroughly objective & honest report.

You've accidentally posted that on railforums, where people will laugh at you, rather than sending it to Mr Gibbs' fanclub, which I presume was your intention.

 

[the sniper]

And some say there aren't enough managers on this forum...

 

[Robertj21a]

And some say there aren't enough managers on this forum...

But that's just one (or claims to be) - how many others are there ?

 

[steamybrian]

I lost interest after reading some differences. It appears to be written by someone friendly with Civil Engineers but lacking some recent intimate knowledge of the area
No trains serving Redhill station between midnight and 0500.
Trains are still busy after midnight carrying passengers from London..!
Few trains serving Gatwick Airport between midnight and 0500.
Sorry but has he been to Gatwick Airport at 0430 in the morning to see how busy it is..!
Overnight train service timetabled using two out of 4 tracks
When I was working for BR we did this from 1984. So what has changed..?
Building a new carriage depot at Crowborough
One of the hidden costs for closing Uckfield- Lewes line. I can see the "Nimbys" at Crowborough already forming up ready to protest at this. Suggest build the depot at Brighton as pre- 1969 and run trains via Lewes and Uckfield.
Reducing off peak services at some little used stations such as.... Ashurst ..?
A long passing loop on a single line at which most trains stop..! Suggest continue marketing the station to attract passenger not detract them because the train service is reduced. Maybe he has not fully understood why the passengers numbers on the Uckfield line are rising so rapidly.?
Blockades of up 2 weeks to close sections of line for engineering works such as Horsham- Three Bridges..? If this goes ahead then every line will be closed for 2 weeks everywhere. No for a start. Suggest the engineers rethink solutions of doing more work in shorter time- such as machines that can relay track faster.
Single line working overnight Considered this between Balcombe Tunnel and Preston Park when SIMBIDS was first introduced in 1980s but engineers refused to undertake any work quoting safety concerns. The top management wanted it but the middle management refused to plan any work.
Overhead electrification to Uckfield line.?
Every bridge will have to be rebuilt. Interesting to consider what they do to Oxted Tunnel as it has very tight clearances.

 

[Domeyhead]

Many of us believe that the intention behind these changes is to, ultimately, remove the staff from the trains. Many of us think this is stage 1 in a larger plan. You may not.

So you are saying that all your vitriol, and anger and mistrust essentially based on a hunch - a guess that everything the TOC has said in writing - will be reneged upon. Aside from how it would be impossible to renege upon such puvblic commitments do you not think the appropriate time to take action on that would be when it is becomes clear that it will happen, not just on a suspicion for which no concrete evidence exists?

 

[6Gman]

This is splendid work from a man with a superb record in the industry. He worked his way up from clerk in BR days to top director. Everyone I know looks up to him, which is why he was chosen to look at the Southern problems. He has firmly nailed RMT's industrial action, official & unofficial as the main cause of the misery commuters have been subjected to.
The serious media have picked it up & laid the blame exactly where it should lie,rmt. Well done Mr Gibbs for a thoroughly objective & honest report.

You do know that his name is Gibb?

 

[the sniper]

So you are saying that all your vitriol, and anger and mistrust essentially based on a hunch - a guess that everything the TOC has said in writing - will be reneged upon. Aside from how it would be impossible to renege upon such puvblic commitments do you not think the appropriate time to take action on that would be when it is becomes clear that it will happen, not just on a suspicion for which no concrete evidence exists?

Why would it be impossible? The OBS have no responsibility and no long term guarantees, they could be got rid of at any time, though probably during the next franchise as that sits comfortably with the 'promises' that have been made. (Un)natural wastage may well have taken care of the problem by then anyway.

And take what action when it becomes clear? The OBS won't have a leg to stand on, the role is irrelevant by design. As I posted earlier, Mr Gibb just further highlights how this industry appreciates the OBS grade for what it is, the theoretically easiest way to transition to single manning. The OBS grade has been pitched in a very deliberate way to the public quite well, as such I appreciate why you buy into it.

This discussion has been done to death in the other thread though.

 

[HH]

This is splendid work from a man with a superb record in the industry. He worked his way up from clerk in BR days to top director. Everyone I know looks up to him, which is why he was chosen to look at the Southern problems. He has firmly nailed RMT's industrial action, official & unofficial as the main cause of the misery commuters have been subjected to.
The serious media have picked it up & laid the blame exactly where it should lie,rmt. Well done Mr Gibbs for a thoroughly objective & honest report.

(I missed this first time around...)

Or "Shame on you Mr Gibb for trading on your good name to write a shoddy report that merely demonstrates just how much you've lost touch with the rail industry."

Spend your nice, fat fee wisely, Chris.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

With some knowledge - forget excursions into Crowborough depots etc - and concentrate on the really boring and mundane general maintenance on the tracks - repeated critical points failures due to dry slides (i.e no lubrication) on points at Preston Park junctions etc screw the service big time. Ditto a thorough review on ECS and crew workings bound to pay huge dividends.

 

[HLE]

£1500 a day he was paid to write that crap.

£1500. A day.

The mind boggles.

And he has the sheer brass neck to blame the unions for "undermining the system and the country that funds it". Really?

They should've just got Peter Wilkinson to write it and save the cash.

First head to roll and be publicly humiliated if I get anywhere near number 10

Edit: Peter Wilkinson I mean.

 

[deltic]

A very interesting report and there can be few people in the industry who have such breadth and depth of knowledge.

I do however get the impression that he is a bit like a old general fighting the last war. The report is very much about dealing with the peak and calling for a reduction in off peak services. Eg reduce Southern Metro from 6 to 4 tph early morning and evening. Most growth has however occurred off-peak to the stage where on the underground there is little difference in train frequency between the two. Increasing patronage off-peak is the fastest way to grow revenue without incurring additional costs. Having a firewall from 12 to 2 and breaking the clockface service is also likely to impact on off-peak usage as users become confused about changes in timetables.

Not sure I follow the comments made by others in relation to comparing a ped crossing on BML with one over the M25. Gibb is highlighting the risk that if more people use the crossing then a speed restriction will be imposed taking more capacity out of the network. Having people cross a 100mph railway does seem a fairly strange practice these days.

 

[maniacmartin]

I've now read the report in full, except the appendix by L.E.K. which seemed to just be a load of pictures and arrows (clearly the printout of slides accompanying a presentation we aren't party to). I found it quite interesting, but as I don't work on the railways I can't comment on the feasibility of the proposals, however it appears that Mr Gibb hasn't shied away from making some very radical recommendations.

The argument over electrifying the Uckfield line felt quite compelling to me, as I have always felt this diesel stub makes no sense. However I have my reservations about using private capital in this way and having a third party own and manage the wires, and maintain the track on the Uckfield branch. Surely it'd be more efficient for Network Rail to maintain it given they already maintain the surrounding lines? Although OHLE may be more power efficient, quicker and cheaper to erect, it adds a complication with rolling stock having to do a voltage change on the move. Changing power source is something that seems to often fail on 37x stock in the Thameslink core. Overhead power is also quite ugly, so I can't see the local residents lining up to support its installation in the pleasant scenary in which it would be visible. If the ticket prices on the Uckfield branch were to increase at the rate he suggests, to even out the disparity compared to nearby stations served by Southeastern, they might find they don't need so much capacity after all!

A lot of the the solutions proposed involved dumping periphery services onto other TOCs (but not the majority of the Southern Metro). e.g. Milton Keynes - East Croydon and Hertford - Moorgate services possibly going to London Overground so GTR can focus on a smaller network. I'm not convinced that this will automatically make those better though.

Regarding GatEx, I'm glad that an official report has finally said what this forum has been saying all along. The 3 brands strategy on the Brighton Mainline is confusing and its ticketting is confusing, leading to packed Thameslink trains whilst expensive Gatwick Express trains use valuable paths catering fresh air around. I haven't been to Gatwick in rush hour, so I didn't know it had such a profound impact on platform overcrowding though. I still think that the Gatwick Express brand should be abolished, given it now has uncomfy rolling stock.

The overnight timetable reduction in services that was foisted on us with virtually no notice whilst this report was embargoed is too hasty. We should have been given more notice of the change, especially the residents of Coulsdon South, Merstham and Redhill whose overnight service has been culled. I don't think withdrawing overnight services to Victoria is a big deal, but they should have waited until Crossrail opened for interchange at Farringdon, and after Thameslink trains resuming running via the quick route via Blackfriars and London Bridge before culling the Victoria services. At the moment, Thameslink is badly connected to London's nightlife that is more in the West End, and the route via Tulse Hill is slow. That said, as Gibb recommended the trains will be timed to the slowest route, you might end up sitting at Croydon for some time if your train takes the fastest route anyway! If they can support single line bi-di working at the southern end of the BML, why not 2-line working on the 4-track railway between Victoria and Croydon, at least until 2018?

I think he's missed a few things that are screwing up performance though, such as the leisurely dispatchers at East Croydon who appear to have all the time in the world.

The report appears to be written on the premise that DOO has been already decided. I hope that this thread doesn't become another thread about the merits and drawbacks of DOO, as there is already another thread where this was covered extensively. As far as Chris Gibb is concerned, that ship has sailed already.

 

[DarloRich]

So you are saying that all your vitriol, and anger and mistrust essentially based on a hunch - a guess that everything the TOC has said in writing - will be reneged upon. Aside from how it would be impossible to renege upon such puvblic commitments do you not think the appropriate time to take action on that would be when it is becomes clear that it will happen, not just on a suspicion for which no concrete evidence exists?

yes - although i must stress (AGAIN) this is neither my union nor my dispute. my comments are based on my personal past experience. You can hold no store by any public statements. They hold no legal basis whatsoever.

It is my view the OBS role will be ditched at the earliest convenience of the government - made easier by changes to T&C and a desire to de unionise.

You may never have been screwed over but once you have you become very suspicious of change and the controllers of change

 

[HH]

Regarding GatEx, I'm glad that an official report has finally said what this forum has been saying all along. The 3 brands strategy on the Brighton Mainline is confusing and its ticketting is confusing, leading to packed Thameslink trains whilst expensive Gatwick Express trains use valuable paths catering fresh air around. I haven't been to Gatwick in rush hour, so I didn't know it had such a profound impact on platform overcrowding though. I still think that the Gatwick Express brand should be abolished, given it now has uncomfy rolling stock.

You and others have missed the mark here. Govia/DfT don't give a hoot which train you actually catch; they have already sold you the "inter-available" ticket, i.e. the one that allows you to travel on GatEx (whether you want to or no) and that is twice as expensive as the Southern/Thameslink fare in the Off Peak. Since the demise of FCC this fare has been growing and the Reduced Fare tickets have been declining; try going there with an uninformed traveller and see what ticket they buy; the staff unashamedly push this fare.

Mr Gibb is well aware of this little scam (for that is what it surely is).

 

[daikilo]

You and others have missed the mark here. Govia/DfT don't give a hoot which train you actually catch; they have already sold you the "inter-available" ticket, i.e. the one that allows you to travel on GatEx (whether you want to or no) and that is twice as expensive as the Southern/Thameslink fare in the Off Peak. Since the demise of FCC this fare has been growing and the Reduced Fare tickets have been declining; try going there with an uninformed traveller and see what ticket they buy; the staff unashamedly push this fare.

Mr Gibb is well aware of this little scam (for that is what it surely is).

You may be right, but the last time I passed through Gatwick I wanted 3 returns and, whilst trying to buy my GTX tickets was invited to go to see a lady with a hand-help ticket machine standing in front of the closed GTX counter who sold me what I wanted at way less than the price of 2 GTX return tickets. The tickets were Southern only but I was not made aware before purchase.

As it happens, it didn't bother me regarding travel as I knew there were SN services almost as fast as GTX. What does bother me is the total denigration of the GTX brand, which, in my opinion, needs to be abandoned as such.

 

[physics34]

id like to know what that blanked out section regarding the class 700s said. I assume it was critical of the stock.

 

[HH]

id like to know what that blanked out section regarding the class 700s said. I assume it was critical of the stock.

I'd imagine so, given that there are multiple issues and stock sitting unused, with further deliveries suspended.