The Sunday Times: 'Ironing board' seats

[yorksrob]

Because there are many neophyte's who believe anything new is the "best ever". I have said for a long time ( and been attacked by the usual suspects) for daring to say that new trains have less comfortable seats than the trains they replaced.

I've been saying the same since they scrapped the EPB's.

 

[physics34]

BBC London is just gonna do a report on it

 

[yorksrob]

Quite correct. Northern have gone out of their way to provide a seat roadshow, record passenger preferences (often at stations not due to be served by their new trains*), only to opt for the least popular design. I can't really interpret that as anything short of contemptuous.

I don't think they've ever gone on record to explain or defend this decision. I've also yet to see any Twitter users call them out on this specifically, not that any benefit would result.

That design compromises have been made (a bit more padding) is of course an improvement - they might even be pleasant to use - but does nothing to temper the sense of contempt and pointlessness surrounding the whole roadshow exercise.

* Not really an issue since some existing stock is also due to be reseated.

Yes, it's a shame. I thought the seat roadshow was quite a good idea at the time.

 

[yorksrob]

but luckily they are from Charing Cross to Bexley and places like that, not Peterborough to Brighton!

Still not a patch on an EPB.

 

[physics34]

Still not a patch on an EPB.

100% agree

 

[yorksrob]

They're not much better in the cab.

Ouch. I hope they give you time to stretch your legs at the terminus !

 

[Trailfinder]

This was covered on both ITV London and BBC London local news. There was nothing new.

As someone who has carried out the statutory Fire Risk Assessment on the communal areas of the block of flats where I live, can I ask the following:

1. When was the last time a train seat actually caught fire?
2. How does the foam in a seat actually catch fire, isn't it covered by flame retardant material?
3. Isn't the risk of fire more from what passengers carry onto a train?
4. In the event of a fire, would passengers be able to move to a place of safety?

The issue of passenger safety is always raised, but standing passengers are at more risk than seated passengers, and TOCs are quite happy to increase standing capacity and reduce seating.

 

[class387]

This was covered on both ITV London and BBC London local news. There was nothing new.

Looks like a media storm is starting. Have the TOCs tried to defend themselves yet?

 

[Mikey C]

My goodness, those seats look horrid !

Not great BUT they do at least have very generous legroom. Almost too much, in that in the airline seats I have plenty of space in front of my knees (and I'm pretty tall)

 

[PHILIPE]

Looks like a media storm is starting. Have the TOCs tried to defend themselves yet?

It's the DFT who should be defending themselves as they specify seats, but they are quite happy to hide in the background and let the TOCs take the flak

 

[class387]

It's the DFT who should be defending themselves as they specify seats, but they are quite happy to hide in the background and let the TOCs take the flak

Correct, but no one will notice that.

 

[physics34]

This was covered on both ITV London and BBC London local news. There was nothing new.

As someone who has carried out the statutory Fire Risk Assessment on the communal areas of the block of flats where I live, can I ask the following:

1. When was the last time a train seat actually caught fire?
2. How does the foam in a seat actually catch fire, isn't it covered by flame retardant material?
3. Isn't the risk of fire more from what passengers carry onto a train?
4. In the event of a fire, would passengers be able to move to a place of safety?

The issue of passenger safety is always raised, but standing passengers are at more risk than seated passengers, and TOCs are quite happy to increase standing capacity and reduce seating.

100% agree. The carriage itself has to be on fire already before all the seats are affected surely....unless the seat itself is set on fire, but surely as you say the covering is fire retardant anyway! OTT health and safety shouldnt affect the comfort of commuters in this situation.

 

[physics34]

Correct, but no one will notice that.

What gets me is surely Tory MPs tavel on these trains, as do TOC and other managers. Dont they themselves want a comfortable journey?

 

[racyrich]

Two questions:

If a more padded but reg-compliant seat was used, how much would it add to the cost of a carriage that already costs c. £1.3m and how would that translate to its leasing cost, amortised over 30(??) years?

Second, if the ironing board design is what's required to meet fire regs, are all the existing seats therefore non-compliant? It's a wonder the RMT aren't calling a strike for being forced to work on deathtraps.

 

[Failed Unit]

I see it is kicking off on the great northern twitter feed. But we had a insight into the cost on an earlier post.

£100 per seat. £666000 per FLU. Considering the cost of a season ticket that isn’t much. BUT will the shabby seats lose passengers? no as most people have no choice to use these trains. Some may drive but not into London. East coast need to be more careful or they will lose to Easy jet or open access operators.

 

[physics34]

Two questions:

If a more padded but reg-compliant seat was used, how much would it add to the cost of a carriage that already costs c. £1.3m and how would that translate to its leasing cost, amortised over 30(??) years?

Second, if the ironing board design is what's required to meet fire regs, are all the existing seats therefore non-compliant? It's a wonder the RMT aren't calling a strike for being forced to work on deathtraps.

when was the last time train seats on fire was a major concern? (i am aware "horsehair" EPB seats may have been an issue)...... Probably around a thousand quid for new seat cushions id guess. Quite a lot overall but then not if you consider how long the last.

The problem i guess is tha there are so many consultants, non-railway and banking people involved in these trains that there just isnt the motives to look at customer comfort. It now seems that customer feedback was NOT taken as quoted today but GTR... ( a small trial was done in spain by the manufacturer), and they are NOT hard like they are because they HAVE TO BE because of fire regs, its just that they PASS fire regs.

Spin spin spin

 

[iFoam Ltd]

Ive often mentioned SPRUNG seats that used to be the norm. Is there any reason sprung seats would be less safe regarding fire risks etc? Or is this just expense again?

With so many designs of seat going back for many years why the need to "design" new seats? Why not modify previous seat designs? I Understand the tooling issue, but once a new seat prototype is decided on, the cost will be worth it if many are ordered.

It seems that the fansia seats and the GWR 800 are just "off the shelf" seats that really havent gone through much testing from a comfort point of view. THIS is the issue really. The 700 seats are generally fine for 30 mins.

How much more would thicker seat cushions cost that still comply with regs? 2 inchs of extra foam for example.

“comfort” testing nowadays is usually done by pressure mapping the seat with either an anthropomorphic dummy or a real Person. Many years ago for the Network seat (first fully composite seat used in the UK) used on class 365/465 I had Southampton University get 50 students from a random population sit on a seat and fill in a questionnaire.
Pressure mapping is more objective.
A modern train seat cushion (Standard class) is typically 40-50mm thick, to double that depth you are looking at about adding £8.00 to the cost of the cushion foam. That doesn’t seem bad for something that is not only tested for FST but also tested by compressing it by 75% of its free height 240,000 times and ensuring it doesn’t lose more than 2% of its thickness or 6% of its hardness, but I would say that wouldn’t I.

 

[physics34]

“comfort” testing nowadays is usually done by pressure mapping the seat with either an anthropomorphic dummy or a real Person. Many years ago for the Network seat (first fully composite seat used in the UK) used on class 365/465 I had Southampton University get 50 students from a random population sit on a seat and fill in a questionnaire.
Pressure mapping is more objective.
A modern train seat cushion (Standard class) is typically 40-50mm thick, to double that depth you are looking at about adding £8.00 to the cost of the cushion foam. That doesn’t seem bad for something that is not only tested for FST but also tested by compressing it by 75% of its free height 240,000 times and ensuring it doesn’t lose more than 2% of its thickness or 6% of its hardness, but I would say that wouldn’t I.

do they factor in the movement of the train and the length of time seated?

£8.00 is so cheap. That annoys me more if they are the way they are on 700s because of cost.

 

[Hadders]

The class 345 seats on Crossrail seems to be far more comfortable than the seats on 700s. Presumably the same fire regulations, cost pressures etc.

Just saying....

 

[iFoam Ltd]

when was the last time train seats on fire was a major concern? (i am aware "horsehair" EPB seats may have been an issue)...... Probably around a thousand quid for new seat cushions id guess. Quite a lot overall but then not if you consider how long the last.

The problem i guess is tha there are so many consultants, non-railway and banking people involved in these trains that there just isnt the motives to look at customer comfort. It now seems that customer feedback was NOT taken as quoted today but GTR... ( a small trial was done in spain by the manufacturer), and they are NOT hard like they are because they HAVE TO BE because of fire regs, its just that they PASS fire regs.

Spin spin spin

A couple of things here, spring cases are very good, but..... if they break they can puncture - in extrem cases your skin.
Years ago it got to a rediculous situation where LUL (now TfL) we’re paying out thousands, some say hundreds of thousand for damaged clothing. Funny how 99% of the tube population used to wear Armani suits
They are also more difficult to shape & contour and are always finished with a foam/ fire blanket topper.
Fires on trains have not been an issue for decades (with one exception due to a ruptured diesel tank). You have to ask yourself if that is due to the very strict fire standards that have be met. Incidentally the UK fire regulations are now being asked for all over the world, British really is best in this arena.

 

[physics34]

A couple of things here, spring cases are very good, but..... if they break they can puncture - in extrem cases your skin.
Years ago it got to a rediculous situation where LUL (now TfL) we’re paying out thousands, some say hundreds of thousand for damaged clothing. Funny how 99% of the tube population used to wear Armani suits
They are also more difficult to shape & contour and are always finished with a foam/ fire blanket topper.
Fires on trains have not been an issue for decades (with one exception due to a ruptured diesel tank). You have to ask yourself if that is due to the very strict fire standards that have be met. Incidentally the UK fire regulations are now being asked for all over the world, British really is best in this arena.

H&S is one of the things we should be proud of over here and railway safety generally but there does seem to be overkill in various places.

Ha ha, i guess poor maintenance would be one of the reasons for those compensation claims.

We know trains will never be as comfy as old slam doors, but I think all that is being asked for on these 700s is a touch more cushioning and a touch more legroom. Very manageable. And unlikely to cause the train to become an inferno if set alight! This couldve been released by sitting on these seats for over an hour when they were first introduced.

 

[iFoam Ltd]

do they factor in the movement of the train and the length of time seated?

£8.00 is so cheap. That annoys me more if they are the way they are on 700s because of cost.

The £8.00 is for an extra 2” of foam.
Length of journey is considered but I’m not sure it carries much weight.
Which brings me on to another subject - weight. Seat manufacturers are targeted with an all up weight (no meal tray, grab handle or armrest) of around 26-28Kg.
They will always try and reduce the amount (or density) of materials. There is a formula for the cost per Kg per mile for DMU’s and EMU’s.

 

[Mikey C]

“comfort” testing nowadays is usually done by pressure mapping the seat with either an anthropomorphic dummy or a real Person. Many years ago for the Network seat (first fully composite seat used in the UK) used on class 365/465 I had Southampton University get 50 students from a random population sit on a seat and fill in a questionnaire.

I assume they must have been all quite short if the Networker seat was approved by them

 

[iFoam Ltd]

This was covered on both ITV London and BBC London local news. There was nothing new.

As someone who has carried out the statutory Fire Risk Assessment on the communal areas of the block of flats where I live, can I ask the following:

1. When was the last time a train seat actually caught fire?
2. How does the foam in a seat actually catch fire, isn't it covered by flame retardant material?
3. Isn't the risk of fire more from what passengers carry onto a train?
4. In the event of a fire, would passengers be able to move to a place of safety?

The issue of passenger safety is always raised, but standing passengers are at more risk than seated passengers, and TOCs are quite happy to increase standing capacity and reduce seating.

1). I believe it was in 1963/64. The customary procedure then was to lock the doors of sleeper trains to prevent somnambulists hurting themselves.
Dirty linen was piled up against a heater and 16 people died. Nothing to do with seats directly. However, they have to take in to account the youth of today who will slash a seat, pour in lighter fuel and set it alight. Yes, really and they are traveling on the train!!!
2). If you want to see how the foam does NOT catch fire go to www.ifoamltd.com and click on the testing & certification tab. Scroll down to the video titled “what happens when Graphite Foam encounters a naked flame”. Now you can sleep well in the knowledge of how safe you are on a (modern) UK train. Yes there is usually a fire blocker between the foam and the covering material - but not always - it’s what passes the tests.
3). Yes, see the last part of answer 1
4). Sometimes. There are three categories of fire retardance. It’s a little complicated but basically if the train doesn’t go through any long trains and it can just stop and be evacuated it’s Cat2.
If there are ‘long’ tunnels, viaducts, bridges etc. it’s Cat1b (most TOC’s ask for this now) and finally if it spends it’s life underground it’s Cat1a.

 

[iFoam Ltd]

I assume they must have been all quite short if the Networker seat was approved by them

Are you talking about the height of the seat or the pitch

 

[iFoam Ltd]

1). I believe it was in 1963/64. The customary procedure then was to lock the doors of sleeper trains to prevent somnambulists hurting themselves.
Dirty linen was piled up against a heater and 16 people died. Nothing to do with seats directly. However, they have to take in to account the youth of today who will slash a seat, pour in lighter fuel and set it alight. Yes, really and they are traveling on the train!!!
2). If you want to see how the foam does NOT catch fire go to www.ifoamltd.com and click on the testing & certification tab. Scroll down to the video titled “what happens when Graphite Foam encounters a naked flame”. Now you can sleep well in the knowledge of how safe you are on a (modern) UK train. Yes there is usually a fire blocker between the foam and the covering material - but not always - it’s what passes the tests.
3). Yes, see the last part of answer 1
4). Sometimes. There are three categories of fire retardance. It’s a little complicated but basically if the train doesn’t go through any long trains and it can just stop and be evacuated it’s Cat2.
If there are ‘long’ tunnels, viaducts, bridges etc. it’s Cat1b (most TOC’s ask for this now) and finally if it spends it’s life underground it’s Cat1a.

Sorry, trains don’t go through long trains they go through long tunnels.
I’m not sure if it’s predictive text or tiredness- I’m going to bed!

 

[broadgage]

Well I hope that your bed is more comfortable than a modern train seat !
On a more serious note, if the actual cost of extra padding is as little as £8, then I would pay 80 pence more to sit in less discomfort, so in just ten uses the extra padding is paid for.
OTOH, I already pay an extra £100 to go first class, and might hope that a comfortable seat is already included in this fare.

 

[theageofthetra]

Reminds me of what you often see on buses in China. The modern air conditioned ones are often double the fare (40p instead of 20p!) So the poor use the old ones with knackered hard plastic seats and bring their own piece of foam to sit on.

 

[47271]

I think that you're referring to the Taunton sleeping car fire in 1978. Twelve people died and repercussions had a huge influence on the design of the mk3 sleeper under development at the time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taunton_sleeping_car_fire

Anyway, noone other than the mad or very drunk would manage to sleep on a Class 700, so I think that being overcome by fire is the least of their worries.

Thankfully I don't have to use the ghastly things very often but I did post on the Thameslink thread a few weeks ago that I'd noticed that the cushion front edges were already starting to show signs of wear in a carriage that appeared to be brand new in every other respect. I half jokingly wondered if the squabs were so hard and sharp edged that they were causing this deterioration themselves but this brought a flurry of indignation about people putting their feet on seats etc etc. That would be a lot of feet very early on - I think that they might be wearing through just because they're fabric covered 'concrete' digging into passengers' thighs.

The Class 319 was a basic (and noisy) way to travel from Bedford to Brighton but was just about an acceptable compromise for the job it needed to do. The 700 almost feels like it's a deliberate attempt to demean and dehumanise its passengers, and I think that awful grey blue upholstery combined with the grey exterior and the grey everything else reinforces that. It's really quite dystopian, so just right for something stipulated by the DfT.

A trip on a 707 on the other hand is nearly always shorter and the SWT red doesn't insult the user in quite the same way as Thameslink grey. Even District Line trains feel more welcoming and comfortable than these things.

On the plus side, the WCs are great and the aircon is brilliant. Not praise that you could ever heap on a 319.

But those seats are an unnecessary punishment.

 

[FOH]

You know the seats on VTEC are newer than the Pendolino seats, right?

The original Mk4 seats were quite thin and were not very comfortable. Curiously I can't find a single photo of the as-built Mk4 interior on the Web.

There’s a reasonable picture on the bottom right corner of the first page covering the Mallard conversion here:
https://acumen-da.com/media/GNER-2005_Rail-Magazine_Review.pdf