Third class rail travel on the way back - Telegraph

[Metrailway]

From the Torygraph:

Third class rail travel on the way back

Ministers are facing accusations of turning the clock back 50 years with proposals to introduce a third class of rail travel on the East Coast Main Line

Britain is set to return to three-class rail travel, The Telegraph can disclose.

It is set to become a reality on the East Coast Main Line to Scotland and north east England when the currently state-run franchise, is returned to private hands.

The proposal, contained in the franchise prospectus drawn up by the Department for Transport, led to accusations that the Government was looking to turn the clock back to the 1950s.

Third Class rail travel was last seen in Britain in 1956. While the Government insisted that the proposals were intended to pave the way for a class equivalent to premium economy on aircraft, the plans triggered a furious response.

“Although this leaked document doesn’t specify what that means, twenty years of experience of private rail operators points to a Ryanair model with passengers rammed in to creaking cattle trucks with a surcharge for everything from your bags to using the lavatories,” said Bob Crow, leader of the RMT Transport Union.

“Not only are the Government prepared to rip apart the successful publicly owned East Coast service but they are opening the door to the private sector to create a new, third class of service.”

Mary Creagh, the shadow transport secretary added: " David Cameron says we’re all in this together but if that’s true then why is he going back to the 1950s and reintroducing third class? East Coast passengers deserve better than this.''

How the three class system would work is unclear. One option floated in the industry would be a reservation-only standard class, where passengers would be guaranteed a seat. (Read More)

 

[swt_passenger]

He wrote basically the same article last November. The DfT's then response was:

A DfT spokesman said: “It is completely untrue and deliberately misleading to claim that this Government wants to introduce ‘third class’ fares.
“It absolutely does not: the minimum level of service is standard class and the Government is only interested in proposals from train operators that would improve, at the very least maintain, existing standards.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/967...-for-first-time-since-1950s-unions-claim.html

Just Bob Crow trying to keep the ECML pot boiling, I reckon...

 

[YorkshireBear]

Love journalists. So the plan is to introduce something between standard and first but keep standard as it is completely! Yes we are going back the the 50s of course.

Journalists are up there with bankers for me.

 

[starrymarkb]

Maybe there is a market for a low cost third class - something like Ouigo/idTGV in France or the InterConnex in Germany?

 

[marks87]

Anyone who didn't know Bob Crow would think that quote was lifted from a website like The Daily Mash. There are no words to describe it.

 

[rdwarr]

I'm sure there used to be something called "Silver Standard" on the ECML. Like Standard but you got free coffee and papers IIRC.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure there used to be something called "Silver Standard" on the ECML. Like Standard but you got free coffee and papers IIRC.

That wouldn't suit Bob Crow's agenda though would it, as that happened under good old pre-privatisation BR...

 

[Midlandman]

Silver Standard also operated on the WCML in the 90s. You got free tea or coffee and you could buy a hot breakfast (very much cut down from what the first class lot were getting, but not bad for a fiver). The Silver Standard was introduced for people on full-fare tickets only. Usually it was in the coach behind the buffet and was identifiable by distinctive headrest covers on the seats

 

[Trog]

I thought standard class was third class just rebadged twice to make it sound better.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Scum Class anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPfF1IfuVnc

 

[yorksrob]

C

Love journalists. So the plan is to introduce something between standard and first but keep standard as it is completely! Yes we are going back the the 50s of course.

Journalists are up there with bankers for me.

Strictly speaking, in the early fifties, third class was effectively "standard" class. From reading Vic Mitchell and Keith Smith's excellent book on the Ashford - Dover route, I understand that second class was largely obselete and had been confined to boat trains for many years.

 

[edwin_m]

IIRC the Midland Railway abolished second class in the 1880s and most other companies followed soon after. They couldn't abolish third class because of legislation that required operators to provide it, but they upgraded third to be similar to what second had been before.

I believe also the idea of introducing an extra class is one reason the Voyagers are so short of space. Accessibility rules require (or did at the time) wheelchair users in each class to have access to a toilet if there is any toilet on the train, so since wheelchairs couldn't get through gangways they had to provide three wheelchair toilets per train.

 

[WatcherZero]

C

Strictly speaking, in the early fifties, third class was effectively "standard" class. From reading Vic Mitchell and Keith Smith's excellent book on the Ashford - Dover route, I understand that second class was largely obselete and had been confined to boat trains for many years.

I thought third class didnt include padded seats, just wooden benches while what we think of as standard class today was second.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst my connections to rail travel only go back to the early 1950's, all that I can remember is first class and third class being the available modes of travel in those far-off days.

For those interested in railway carriage history, can I ask if, when the three classes were in operation in Victorian times, were any carriages ever shown by a large external door numeral as having a "2" for second class ?

 

[yorksrob]

I thought third class didnt include padded seats, just wooden benches while what we think of as standard class today was second.

Maybe in the early days ythird didn‘t have padded seats, but I believe that throughout the 20th century, third class accommodation was padded.

 

[krus_aragon]

Whilst my connections to rail travel only go back to the early 1950's, all that I can remember is first class and third class being the available modes of travel in those far-off days.

For those interested in railway carriage history, can I ask if, when the three classes were in operation in Victorian times, were any carriages ever shown by a large external door numeral as having a "2" for second class ?

As I recall, the period photos I've seen would tend to have the word "First" or "Third" painted on, rather than a numeral. Numbers would tend to designate carriage or compartment numbers.

 

[jon0844]

Maria Eagle and Labour are tweeting about the return of third class travel this morning. Responses along the lines of time to get rid of the Government etc.

So, nice to see it's gone political.

 

[route:oxford]

Maria Eagle and Labour are tweeting about the return of third class travel this morning. Responses along the lines of time to get rid of the Government etc.

So, nice to see it's gone political.

It's becoming really irritating.

I can't quite decide if the relevant politicians of (all colours) simply stupidly make statements without reading the relevant documents.

Or they assume that their cohort are too stupid to understand the relevant documents.

 

[matchmaker]

Until the 1950's it was 1st class or 3rd class. 2nd class had only existed in a few places in pre-nationalisation days. 3rd class was renamed 2nd class, then became standard class.

 

[455driver]

It's becoming really irritating.

1) I can't quite decide if the relevant politicians of (all colours) simply stupidly make statements without reading the relevant documents.

2) Or they assume that their cohort are too stupid to understand the relevant documents.

I will go for no2.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maria Eagle and Labour are tweeting about the return of third class travel this morning. Responses along the lines of time to get rid of the Government etc.

So, nice to see it's gone political.

Has Maria Eagle vacated her office yet or is she still stubbonly refusing to believe that she was relieved of her role on Transport on the Shadow Cabinet...

 

[island]

The Times today suggests that the intermediate class might be created by having standard class reservation-only carriages.

Passenger Focus has weighed in and said that the intermediate class should only be added at the expense of first class. There is, I suppose, an argument for this on Pendolinos and possibly East Coast services, but it would be a nonsense elsewhere.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

BR had 3 classes in some inter-city trains - Silver Standard.
Some airlines have 5 classes of travel (and airline "economy" has been downgraded over the years - smaller seats, less service, cheaper fares).

 

[poshfan]

I would keep 1st class and 2nd class as they are and bring back two old classes, 3rd class closed and 3rd class open (should be a laugh at 125mph). You could even allow smoking in 3rd class open.

 

[starrymarkb]

BR had 3 classes in some inter-city trains - Silver Standard.
Some airlines have 5 classes of travel (and airline "economy" has been downgraded over the years - smaller seats, less service, cheaper fares).

4 seems to be the maximum these days (First, Business, Premium, Economy), most airlines are ditching First as a lot of companies will no longer pay for their staff to go first. So it seems that Business is now what First was 10 years ago, Premium is like Business used to be and Economy has just been downgraded (especially on Boeing aircraft as Boeing/Airlines are pushing 9 abreast on the 787 (built for 8 abreast) and 10 abreast on the 777 (built for 9 abreast))

 

[jon0844]

You know what... If they had a flat wagon that enabled people to smoke, it would probably be really popular!!

 

[Chrisgr31]

I have said for some time that there is a need for a ticket that enables you to pay an tenner or similar, and get sandwich, drink and wi-fi chucked in.

However the flaw in the suggestion that it should only apply to reserved seats is that you'll find those carriages packed whilst others have plenty of space.

I assume that it really is only needed on the longer journeys and not the commuter routes.

Personally my issue with the current reservation scheme is that the operators seem to allocate seat reservations in the order of worst seat first, and fill them row by row, until the carriage is full until moving on to the next carriage.

Whereas I suggest the booking system should work on best seat to worse and initially try and fill alternate seats to maximise passengers space. Obviously once all alternate seats are filled it would have to fill the gaps.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Until the 1950's it was 1st class or 3rd class. 2nd class had only existed in a few places in pre-nationalisation days. 3rd class was renamed 2nd class, then became standard class.

I have a feeling that the Midland Railway abolished the second class tier as far back as 1875.

 

[dysonsphere]

I noticed that Radio 4 has picked up it as well they must read the Telegraph.

 

[rebmcr]

I'd quite like a "1st Lite", using some number of 1st carriages to provide reservation-only, no-freebies.

Basically all you pay for is less cramped conditions and nicer seating.