This ticket machine is nothing to do with us - Chorley

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osborn99

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I bought tickets on the East coast site to be collected at Chorley. For the second time this has happened I enter the ref number, the tickets fail to print. When you ask the staff they say the machine is nothing to do with us, useless. Why on earth are they not trained to use the ticket machine. Yes I could have collected the tickets at Manchester but the connection time was 10 mins.

I paid £82.70 return on East coast website to Clifton down. The staff at the station said if I buy a new ticket for £82.70 I would get a refund later.

So How do I go about getting a refund? Do I contact east coast or visit Chorley rail station?
 
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aformeruser

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Two things:
1. Which operator run the machine? If it's a Northern machine then Northern are responsible for it not working and it's their staff in the ticket office. If it's a TPE machine then it's out of Northern's control.
2. Where did you change trains? If you changed trains at a station with working TVMs, like Preston, you should have been able to collect your ticket there and not been required to purchase a new £82.70 ticket for the whole journey.
 

osborn99

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Northern run the station so I guess it's Northern who run the machine.

I changed at Manchester But the time to change trains was 10 mins. The staff said I had to buy a new ticket if I want to travel.
 

aformeruser

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Northern run the station so I guess it's Northern who run the machine.
Is it this type of machine: http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2012-03-05_11.51.jpg ?

I changed at Manchester But the time to change trains was 10 mins. The staff said I had to buy a new ticket if I want to travel.
I was thinking what if you didn't have another £82.70 you shouldn't have been forced to buy a new ticket for the entire journey.

Am I right in thinking you weren't on an Advance ticket so in theory someone else could have had a copy of your booking confirmation and have travelled on the next or previous service if you've been 'let off' on the Chorley-Manchester service?
 

yorkie

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For the second time this has happened I enter the ref number, the tickets fail to print.
Sorry to hear this, but can you clarify that when you enter the ToD number it is recognised, the booking details do appear, but it does not actually print? Is that correct?

If you can confirm that is what happened, then there are some instructions for station staff that cover that scenario....

As for the staff claiming the machine is "Nothing to do with us" I see [stn]CRL[/stn] is managed by Northern. Can you confirm that a member of Northern Rail staff (in the ticket office?) made this claim? Can you also confirm whether the ticket machine is a TPE or a Northern machine?
 

osborn99

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When I enter the ref number, it shows the journey and asks me to confirm which I do. It stays on printing 1 of 6 then says there is an error, seek assistance.

Yes, both the ticket inspector and the guy behind the desk both said It's nothing to do with them. It happened a month ago as well and they said the same thing. The man didn't have a clue what to do, his words, 'you won't be able to travel if you don't buy a ticket now and claim for a refund. I had to pay on my credit card so I'm hoping for a quick refund.

From the photo above it is a northern ticket machine.

I might go to the station now and see if they can refund me. they open to 10
 

Solent&Wessex

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There have been endless problems since Northern enabled their own ticket machines for collection of internet bookings.

Primarily, and importantly, the booking office staff appear to have had minimal, if any, training about the machines or TOD bookings.

The most unhelpful bit is that with most TOCs (including neighbouring TPE, Virgin etc) if you cannot collect your booking from the TVM, then you go to the booking office, present your reference number, the booking clerk checks your id, recalls the booking on their machine and prints out the tickets. Whole thing can take less than a minute with only a few button presses. Northern, however, have not set their ticket office machines up to do this. Booking Clerks cannot recall bookings. If there is a problem with a TVM then to print the ticket they have to phone up their control, who use their systems to check the booking. They then relay this information to the clerk, who then has to issue a entirely separate ticket from his machine manually, then complete a lot of paperwork in order to account for the missing monies which are not there to accompany the ticket that has been printed. I am reliably informed that the whole process takes between 5 - 10 minutes depending on how quick the phone calls etc.

As a result of this shambolic state of affairs most clerks can't be bothered to do this and feign ignorance or the "its nothing to do with me" situation faced by the OP. They will either tell the passenger to buy a new ticket, or more often than not, just tell them to get on the train and show the reference number - thereby passing the buck to on train staff who have even less facilities to check what the booking actually is.
 

aformeruser

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I've just noticed the ATOS and trainline booking engines don't seem to include stations offering Tickets on Departure that only have a Northern ticket machine. (At least there's a load of Northern stations missing even if they may not be all excluded.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They will either tell the passenger to buy a new ticket, or more often than not, just tell them to get on the train and show the reference number - thereby passing the buck to on train staff who have even less facilities to check what the booking actually is.
Reminds me of the time a man at the ticket office told everyone travelling on the next train to board without a ticket because he was dealing with a business passenger who was booking tickets for travel in a few days time with seat reservations.

I've noticed the G4S ticket inspectors always position themselves between the station entrance and the ticket machine - hardly encouraging use of Northern's investment in ticket machines!
 

barrykas

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Northern, however, have not set their ticket office machines up to do this (ToD). Booking Clerks cannot recall bookings.
The same applies at Chiltern stations, being the only other TOC to use Revenue FasTIS (and FasTIS+ at Marylebone and Northolt Park), as opposed to just using it for Oyster.

The best thing to do is to take along a (printed) copy of your booking confirmation, as that'll give the clerk the necessary information to be able to issue Duplicate tickets, though they may still need to check with their Control to see the print status.

Cheers,

Barry
 

spacehopper

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As daft as it seems I'm sure that when these machines started to spring up they really weren't anything to do with staff in booking office.

No agreement with TSSA- clerks couldn't touch them and had no training on even fingertip upkeep. So even though in station nothing clerks could do if there was a problem with them.

Don't know what agreements are in place from toc to toc but I've never seen anyone from booking office get involved with a TVM.

Usually a man in a van with a S&B orange vest poking around in them. So maybe maker is responsible even for day to day stuff.
 

185

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I bought tickets on the East coast site to be collected at Chorley. For the second time this has happened I enter the ref number, the tickets fail to print. When you ask the staff they say the machine is nothing to do with us, useless. Why on earth are they not trained to use the ticket machine. Yes I could have collected the tickets at Manchester but the connection time was 10 mins.
Northern need to pay attention to this, it's their station and their TVM. They have the same obligations as other TOCs to issue tickets to all customers.

Strongly worded complaint, ask for substantial compensation ontop of the refund EC should provide. If they fail to respond properly, report them.
 

317666

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I wonder if anyone has tried to pick up tickets from the other machine at Chorley before:



Or has it been removed and replaced with a newer one, and the NRE station plan not updated?
 

yorkie

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When I enter the ref number, it shows the journey and asks me to confirm which I do. It stays on printing 1 of 6 then says there is an error, seek assistance.
Here are the instructions for staff from The Manual:

The Manual said:
6. No tickets are printed.

Example 1

If there is a print failure before printing of the first ticket at the SSTVM, a message will appear on the screen advising the customer to collect their tickets from the Ticket Office.

Duplicate tickets can only be issued if a ToD CTR reference number can be supplied and the CTR successfully recalled for ticketing.

a) If possible, recall the CTR and check the status of the ToD booking.

b) If the CTR cannot be recalled by the ticket office TIS call the CTR Help Desk (0843 365 3641) and request the
status of the ToD booking

c) Be ready to provide the provide the CTR Help Desk with the following information: Your name, your owning TOC and your station location CTR Booking Reference Customer or Booking name

d) If the CTR Help Desk advises that the status has been set to ‘P’ (print failure) the users of some TIS may be able to over-ride this status and re-issue the full set of tickets.

e) If the CTR Help Desk advises that the status of the CTR is ‘Locked’ then request an ‘Unlock’. This should allow the ToD to be recalled and the tickets issued.

f)Ask the customer to complete Parts 1 & 2 of a ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form.

g) If possible, check how many tickets were printed, using the SSTVM Supervisor Terminal. Keep evidence of this and submit with the operator’s balance sheet at the end of the shift.

h) If there is more than one journey booked under a single CTR, then the operator must select the ticket/tickets to
be issued.

i) Complete Part 3 of the ToD Replacement Tickets Record Form with the details of the tickets issued.

j) Ask the customer to sign the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form in Part 4.

k) Provide the authorisation in Part 5.

l) Mark the part printed tickets as cancelled and attach to the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record form.

m) Retain the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form at the TOC central accounting point.

Example 2

When a customer alleges that no tickets have been printed, however there is no evidence of SSTVM malfunction.

a) If possible, recall the CTR and check the status of the ToD booking.

b) If unable to check the status call the CTR Help Desk (0843 365 3641)

c) Be ready to provide the CTR Help Desk with the following information: Your name, your owning TOC and your station location CTR Booking Reference Customer or Booking name

d) Request the status of the CTR.

e) If the status of the CTR confirms that the tickets have been fully issued then confirm the issuing location with the CTR Help Desk.

f) If the issuing location is a SSTVM at the same location as the ticket office then local instructions for ticketing the passenger must apply. Customers should not be referred back to the ToD seller where the CTR Help Desk is able to confirm that the complete issue of all the tickets has taken place at a SSTVM at the calling location.
If you used the tickets that were purchased from the (Northern) ticket office then you can request a refund from the Company you purchased the unused tickets from (EC), explaining the reasons why you were unable to collect (which I see as an internal railway matter).

I'd also send a letter to Northern explaining the inconvenience you caused and asking whether suitable training will be provided to their staff, and for a date by when this training will be completed.

I am happy to proof read - feel free to send me a PM.
 

route:oxford

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According to the East Coast Website, from 17th September it's tough if you machine won't print your ticket.

Please note that you cannot reclaim the cost of any ticket you are unable to print from the Fastticket self-service machine.
 

yorkie

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I wonder if anyone has tried to pick up tickets from the other machine at Chorley before:

Or has it been removed and replaced with a newer one, and the NRE station plan not updated?
I would be extremely surprised if that is still there! It has a new machine because it's on the TOD list.
According to the East Coast Website, from 17th September it's tough if you machine won't print your ticket.
Northern and EC can fight it out, but the customer will get his money back I am sure of that.

If Northern and EC do not co-operate we can look at getting ATOC & Passenger Focus involved, but hopefully it won't come to that.
 

Solent&Wessex

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What?! Even if it's their fault the machine doesn't work? Right ho....
I would suspect this may apply to people who simply just don't bother to collect their tickets and just get on the train with the reference number.

I have had various excuses before, including the passenger thinks that the email booking confirmation print out is their ticket, or opting to collect their tickets from a station, but then travelling from a station without a TVM and failing to read the bit on the email which says "Please note that if you are starting your journey at an unmanned station without a self service ticket machine, and have selected to collect your tickets from an alternative station, you must collect your tickets before you travel. You are not permitted to travel to that station using the booking reference or confirmation email for this booking to collect your tickets. "
 

hairyhandedfool

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....I was thinking what if you didn't have another £82.70 you shouldn't have been forced to buy a new ticket for the entire journey....
The passenger must be able to show upon request a valid ticket for their entire journey.

....Primarily, and importantly, the booking office staff appear to have had minimal, if any, training about the machines or TOD bookings....
I don't work on TVM equipped stations, but I have had no training for such eventualities.

....Northern, however, have not set their ticket office machines up to do this. Booking Clerks cannot recall bookings....
Indeed.

....I'd also send a letter to Northern explaining the inconvenience you caused and asking whether suitable training will be provided to their staff, and for a date by when this training will be completed.

I am happy to proof read - feel free to send me a PM.
No amount of training will help with those instructions if no Northern FasTis machines can issue TOD tickets.

According to the East Coast Website, from 17th September it's tough if you machine won't print your ticket.

Please note that you cannot reclaim the cost of any ticket you are unable to print from the Fastticket self-service machine.
The passenger would not be applying for a refund on the unprinted tickets, they would be applying for a refund on the tickets that were used in the place of the unprinted tickets.;)
 

aformeruser

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The passenger must be able to show upon request a valid ticket for their entire journey.
You mean ticket or combination of tickets.

If you were a guard on a Buxton to Manchester service and two passengers were travelling between Buxton and London and one showed you a Buxton-Stockport ticket (and had a separate Stockport-London ticket) and the other showed you a Buxton-London ticket the one who showed you a Buxton-Stockport ticket hasn't done anything wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Northern and EC can fight it out, but the customer will get his money back I am sure of that.
You may remember there was a thread where one passenger brought a Chester-Northwich ticket at ATW managed Chester and then the Northern service was cancelled and the passenger decided to not travel, but ATW staff told him/her to ask Northern for a refund. He/she eventually did get a refund from Northern, even though ATW should have refunded the ticket.
 

hairyhandedfool

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You mean ticket or combination of tickets....
Indeed.

....If you were a guard on a Buxton to Manchester service and two passengers were travelling between Buxton and London and one showed you a Buxton-Stockport ticket (and had a separate Stockport-London ticket) and the other showed you a Buxton-London ticket the one who showed you a Buxton-Stockport ticket hasn't done anything wrong....
Well, I guess technically if, as a guard, I asked for all tickets, then they would be doing something wrong if they didn't show the Stockport-London ticket, but at this point we are getting really pedantic.;)
 

osborn99

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Right, here goes. I hope you follow, when I first attempted to collect the tickets at Chorley at the machine all it gave me was a collection receipt, I now know the machine thought it printed the outward journey. So when I collected the tickets at the Bristol machine there was no outward journey ticket. Because of this mistake of the Chorley ticket machine I'm unlikely to get a refund.

****Update****

I went to Chorley train station and they've sent the all the tickets to the accounts department. He said I might not get a penny, oh and it gets better if I get refunded I pay an admin fee. When I said it's your fault, he said because the outward journey didn't print at Bristol it's not northern rails's responsibility. Which I find that to be an outrages statement.

This is totally unfair, I've just been scammed by northern rail.
 

hairyhandedfool

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You should have applied to East Coast for the refund, not Northern. If you are lucky Northern will pass it to East Coast and you might avoid the admin fee. Does the East Coast website list Chorley as a station you can pick the tickets up at?
 

Jonfun

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I think this highlights a bigger issue.

The OP, through no fault of his/her own, has ended up inconvenienced because of a failing of the railway. To the traveller, it really doesn't matter whether they booked with East Coast, or whether the machine was owned by Northern, or what did and didn't print on FGW's machines, or whatever. They have booked a ticket with the railway, for the railway, and when something goes wrong, they expect the railway to be able to put it right.

Why should the customer be left to do the donkey work in finding who to complain to or get refunds from? And the suggestion that they would be charged an admin fee is ludicrous - the one thing we can be certain of is the less than helpful attitude of Northern's booking office staff (which surprises me little - if only all of their staff were as knowledgeable and as helpful as those who contribute to this forum).

To the OP: complain to whoever, and insist that they fight it out themselves as to who is responsible. If it comes to it, involve Passenger Focus, who are the independent body for matters such as this. If it comes to it further than that, the Daily Mail? :lol:
 

34D

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or opting to collect their tickets from a station, but then travelling from a station without a TVM and failing to read the bit on the email which says "Please note that if you are starting your journey at an unmanned station without a self service ticket machine, and have selected to collect your tickets from an alternative station, you must collect your tickets before you travel. You are not permitted to travel to that station using the booking reference or confirmation email for this booking to collect your tickets. "
This (in my own personal form of logic) a situation where it would seem wholly reasonable to allow a passenger to travel on a collection receipt (example, a journey such as Micklefield to Manchester Airport).
 

osborn99

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To the OP: complain to whoever, and insist that they fight it out themselves as to who is responsible. If it comes to it, involve Passenger Focus, who are the independent body for matters such as this. If it comes to it further than that, the Daily Mail? :lol:
Thanks for that, I have actually sent East coast an email 24 hours ago but they have not replied which is why I went to northern. The guy who I spoke to said some people came to fix the ticket machine and admitted there was a problem with the printing, so to suggest I might not get a refund after this is outrages.

Anyway they will get the refund claim by Saturday and hopefully they will see sense and I will have my refund next week.
 

lyndhurst25

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I wonder if anyone has tried to pick up tickets from the other machine at Chorley before:



Or has it been removed and replaced with a newer one, and the NRE station plan not updated?
Now that's what I call a ticket machine! None of those fancy electronic touch-screens with multiple confusing menus. How about an improved version with two massive knobs to select any origin and destination stations on National Rail? It would look good made from brass and mahogany, perhaps with a big lever on the side to pull like a one-arm-bandit. It could accept non-cash payments too - maybe a slot to put in Postal Orders. :D
 
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