Ticket checks outside station

[penaltyfines]

I was travelling on NR today, I went through the barriers and was leaving the station when outside I was stopped by a RPI or suchlike asking to see my ticket.

As I was off the premises I refused and pushed past (if I wasn't already late for work due to said NR I might have humoured him) - but my question is what authority do they have to check tickets on public land? I presume they were trying to issue PFs to people without valid tickets.

I fail to see how they can even do it on railway premises if there's ticket barriers, as they will eat paper tickets that have been used!

 

[island]

As I remember, they can stop people who they know are leaving a train, or are present in a station having been on a train at that station. On public ground outside a station I suspect their rights are limited.

 

[transportphoto]

The railway land often doesn't stop at the front door, it depends where the boundary is

 

[penaltyfines]

The railway land often doesn't stop at the front door, it depends where the boundary is

It was definitely on public land, this wasnt in the station foyer or anything
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As I remember, they can stop people who they know are leaving a train, or are present in a station having been on a train at that station. On public ground outside a station I suspect their rights are limited.

Yep I appreciate in the station etc is fine, but I suspect outside the station their powers are limited to nothing?

 

[moonrakerz]

Is it a legal requirement to retain your ticket after you have exited the barrier ?? If so, perhaps the travelling public should be told........
...........or is it yet another example of a TOC making up its own rules as it goes along ?

 

[Greenback]

Can store security stop me on suspicion of shoplifting once I get outside the shop?

 

[penaltyfines]

Can store security stop me on suspicion of shoplifting once I get outside the shop?

Shoplifting is a crime, being stopped outside the shop by a police officer, with reasonable suspicion, for shoplifting is fine.

I have no requirement to hold a ticket outside the station, so sure a police officer can stop me for fare evasion if they have reasonable suspicion, but neither (a) were they police or (b) did they have reasonable suspicion...

I suspect this is a case of a TOC making up their own rules, which really gets me riled up!

 

[Oracle]

A member of the general public can 'arrest' someone if it is an Arrestable Offence, pending the police arriving. Theft is an AO. It is also lawful to arrrest someone causing a breach of the peace...so that can cover a multitude of sins.

 

[penaltyfines]

A member of the general public can 'arrest' someone if it is an Arrestable Offence, pending the police arriving. Theft is an AO. It is also lawful to arrrest someone causing a breach of the peace...so that can cover a multitude of sins.

Whilst probably correct (I'm not sure you can citizens arrest for all crimes - littering?!) they would be setting themselves up for a fall.

I doubt it would be theft, my point was outside the station there's no requirement to produce a ticket or carry a ticket etc so the only possibility would be fraud or something.

No reasonable suspicion, if the police turned up I would produce my oyster card and have them arrested for false imprisonment, probably assault, I would be in for quite a windfall in compensation too!

 

[Stigy]

Whilst probably correct (I'm not sure you can citizens arrest for all crimes - littering?!) they would be setting themselves up for a fall.

Indeed, but littering isn't an arrestable offence, and it has to be Indictable to give grounds for the arrest. A citezen's arrest...Or any person arrest as they are called these days I believe, can only be carried out if the crime equates to a maximum potential term in prison of 5-years (Ie; Theft, criminal damge). The person making the arrest also has to witness the offence taking place, as a member of the public cannot arrest on suspicion.

Regarding the ticket check outside a station. It's a sticky area, as you could argue that you threw your ticket away on leaving the ticket barriers, or the barriers 'ate' your ticket. Having said that, are you sure you weren't still on station property? Just because you weren't on a station concourse doesn't mean it wasn't still station land. It's often very hard to tell without looking at the deeds to a station! Were the RPIs actually on the exit gates, or clearly not on station premisses in your opinion? Were they trying to attract your attention in the station, but failed to do so?

Ticket checking at barriers is fine, although if the barriers eat the ticket, the customer could quite easily say this, and even if the ticket is retrieved and found to be invalid (Child Ticket probably the only way this would happen), then the customer could just say it wasn't their ticket, and there's no real way of disproving this. Continuity of evidence I guess (Once it's disappeared from sight, you only have a belief that the invalid ticket is the person you're speaking to). Other than that issue, I see no other issues with checking rail tickets at a barrier line.

 

[moonrakerz]

Can store security stop me on suspicion of shoplifting once I get outside the shop?

They not only can, but have to, until you have left the shop without paying you are not "shoplifting". If you have 5 new M & S sweaters on underneath your coat, you just have to say that it is an easier way to carry them while in the store - but once you go out of the door like that ............

 

[penaltyfines]

It was still definitely off railway premises, it was on the road/pavement outside (main road, not even the station car park/pickup area).

In any case, there is no concept of an authorised person asking to see the ticket as per the byelaws as you're not on the railway network anymore, so you are perfectly entitled to refuse to show a ticket.

If they want to arrest someone, literally at random, outside the station on suspicion they travelled fraudulently then that's both ridiculous and is going to get them arrested themselves within the hour!

Any the reason why I'm so annoyed is that after going through barriers at both ends, being checked on the train which is running late, and after leaving the station I am NOT going to be hassled further for a ticket!

 

[island]

Indeed, but littering isn't an arrestable offence, and it has to be Indictable to give grounds for the arrest.

Actually every offence is arrestable in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland nowadays would you believe! The Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 and the Police and Criminal Evidence (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 2007 mean that a constable has the right to arrest anyone for any offence or suspected offence if any one of a wide range of criteria is met; the usual one is "the arrest is necessary to enable a prompt and effective investigation of the offence".

An any person arrest can only be made relating to offences which are triable either way or on indictment (except stirring up racial hatred or impersonation at a polling place).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Regarding the ticket check outside a station. It's a sticky area, as you could argue that you threw your ticket away on leaving the ticket barriers, or the barriers 'ate' your ticket.

Perhaps we can separate the 2 issues of a) Seeking to Interview a passenger suspected of Fare Evasion, and b) ticket inspection.
I consider it is entirely permissible for an authorised RPI to make enquiries about an apparent Offence even if it is beyond the station boundary. Such an interview does not need to include the presumption that the passenger would still have a ticket available for presentation.

The most likely applications of this approach would, surely, be instances where it is already apparent to the RPI (either from direct observation, report from an assistant or report from equipment) that there is an irregularity with the ticket, but it remains necessary to interview the passenger to learn more about the circumstances; or, where the RPI is already aware that the ticket irregularity relates to a ticket which would NOT be discarded, such as a continuing season ticket.

Should the passenger decline to be interviewed and to provide information having left the station premises, then Stigy's first paragraph and island's reply may apply (the power of arrest for a serious crime).

I am concerned, though, by the OP's report that they were seeking to inspect single-journey tickets and hunch that they may be attempting to issue Penalty Fares in that manner.

 

[Ferret]

It was still definitely off railway premises, it was on the road/pavement outside (main road, not even the station car park/pickup area).

In any case, there is no concept of an authorised person asking to see the ticket as per the byelaws as you're not on the railway network anymore, so you are perfectly entitled to refuse to show a ticket.

If they want to arrest someone, literally at random, outside the station on suspicion they travelled fraudulently then that's both ridiculous and is going to get them arrested themselves within the hour!

Any the reason why I'm so annoyed is that after going through barriers at both ends, being checked on the train which is running late, and after leaving the station I am NOT going to be hassled further for a ticket!

I can see why you'd be frustrated, BUT you say in your first post that you pushed past the RPI. I hope you don't mean that as in made contact with that RPI. That could leave you wide open to a claim of assault...

 

[clagmonster]

Is it a legal requirement to retain your ticket after you have exited the barrier ?? If so, perhaps the travelling public should be told........
...........or is it yet another example of a TOC making up its own rules as it goes along ?

Tha ticket remains the property of the relevent rail companies (this is stated in the Conditions of Carriage), so I suppose that in theory they can ask for it back whenever they please. Indeed, I suppose if you were to put it in the rubbish or destroy it in some way, even after the end of the validity, you could well theoretically be committing unlawful damage or some such. Note, I am not a lawyer, this should not be taken as legal advise etc, etc, etc...

 

[penaltyfines]

I can see why you'd be frustrated, BUT you say in your first post that you pushed past the RPI. I hope you don't mean that as in made contact with that RPI. That could leave you wide open to a claim of assault...

I was walking to the bus stop and in trying to force a ticket check, he bumped into me by way of trying to obstruct me. If there's any assault in the matter it's the reverse, but I digress...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Tha ticket remains the property of the relevent rail companies (this is stated in the Conditions of Carriage), so I suppose that in theory they can ask for it back whenever they please. Indeed, I suppose if you were to put it in the rubbish or destroy it in some way, even after the end of the validity, you could well theoretically be committing unlawful damage or some such. Note, I am not a lawyer, this should not be taken as legal advise etc, etc, etc...

It may remain property of the railway, but in what way they can get it back is different. If you have it on your posession they can't search you or take it back by force. Equally they can ask to see a ticket/authority to travel and then retain it, but unless I'm mistaken there's no byelaw saying you need to give *any* ticket to them in your posession on request, only that on which you are currently travelling.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Should the passenger decline to be interviewed and to provide information having left the station premises, then Stigy's first paragraph and island's reply may apply (the power of arrest for a serious crime).

Agree on separating the issue. I declined to enter into conversation with them, quite agree they can arrest if they are on suspicion of a crime being committed, but (a) they are doing so as a lay-person/civilian etc, and (b) unless they're damn sure a crime has actually been committed (i.e. refusing to show a ticket off-premises isn't a crime), they're opening themselves up to prosecution and compensation claims.

 

[moonrakerz]

Tha ticket remains the property of the relevent rail companies (this is stated in the Conditions of Carriage), so I suppose that in theory they can ask for it back whenever they please

....if you have put it in their rubbish bin you have given it back to them .

I suppose the NRCoC were written the those days of yore when the railways had staff to collect the tickets. Nowadays we have machines that cause nothing but inconvenience to passengers with tickets and yet seem to have no effect whatsoever on those without tickets !!

 

[Stigy]

Perhaps we can separate the 2 issues of a) Seeking to Interview a passenger suspected of Fare Evasion, and b) ticket inspection.
I consider it is entirely permissible for an authorised RPI to make enquiries about an apparent Offence even if it is beyond the station boundary. Such an interview does not need to include the presumption that the passenger would still have a ticket available for presentation.

I have been thinking about this actually, and I do agree. Disregard any revelation that the passenger has thrown their ticket away etc. If the RPI has seen the person leaving the station, I see no reason why he/she shouldn't ask to see a rail ticket. It's not uncommon for enquiries to be made outside a railway station, either. Yes the person could simply walk away, and attempting to stop them could land the RPI in hot water, but that's no different to being on railway property, is it?

Actually every offence is arrestable in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland nowadays would you believe! The Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 and the Police and Criminal Evidence (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 2007 mean that a constable has the right to arrest anyone for any offence or suspected offence if any one of a wide range of criteria is met; the usual one is "the arrest is necessary to enable a prompt and effective investigation of the offence".

That may be the case, but not every offence would be punishable by up to 5-years imprisonment. And I believe that is the criteria for making an any person arrest....Or used to be. For example, one couldn't arrest somebody for dropping litter. Even a Police Officer arresting somebody for dropping litter, unless there was aggrevating features, would not be the most welcome in Custody!

In any case, there is no concept of an authorised person asking to see the ticket as per the byelaws as you're not on the railway network anymore, so you are perfectly entitled to refuse to show a ticket.

I'd have to check to be sure, but I don't believe the Byelaws dictate that the Authorised agent has to be on railway premises in order to conduct a ticket check, as long as they're acting in the course of their duties. Still a sticky situation though, as even if you're a fare evader, you could state that the ticket machine ate your ticket.

 

[Ferret]

I was walking to the bus stop and in trying to force a ticket check, he bumped into me by way of trying to obstruct me. If there's any assault in the matter it's the reverse, but I digress...

I'm getting the impression you may have been on very thin ice by acting as you did. I doubt obstructing someone constitutes assault, but your actions may well do so. put it this way - I wouldn't be advising any forum members to behave in this manner, whether annoyed about being asked for a ticket or not!

 

[Wolfie]

I can see why you'd be frustrated, BUT you say in your first post that you pushed past the RPI. I hope you don't mean that as in made contact with that RPI. That could leave you wide open to a claim of assault...

You may well be right......and the media would absolutely crucify any TOC that harrassed a ticket holding (former, as the journey was complete!) passenger on the public highway!

 

[Ferret]

You may well be right......and the media would absolutely crucify any TOC that harrassed a ticket holding (former, as the journey was complete!) passenger on the public highway!

I'm not 100% sure what they can and can't do here. Certainly being at the exit doors of the station copping people walking past an open ticket office at the end of their journey having not paid their fare is viewed as legitimate as there have been hundreds of successful cases along those lines. I'd be interested to hear where exactly this incident occured to be honest!

 

[tony_mac]

Do RPIs have some sort of right of arrest like a police officer?

As I understand it, a member of the public can only 'arrest' somebody if a crime was actually comitted - there is no room for mere suspicion.

If the person were then to be found not guilty then the 'arrest' would automatically have been unlawful. It is also not illegal to use force to resist an unlawful attempt at arrest (R v Self - that included punching and kicking the 'arrester').

 

[moonrakerz]

you could state that the ticket machine ate your ticket.

Which it would do, if you had a single ????

 

[Mojo]

Do RPIs have some sort of right of arrest like a police officer?

In addition to the power of arrest granted to individuals for indictable offences, power of arrest is granted to officers of the company under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 if the individual:

• Fails to produce a valid ticket
  and
• Fails to pay the appropriate fare
  and
• Fails to give their name and address

However the policy of my company and some others of which I'm aware is "don't do it!"

 

[Stigy]

In addition to the power of arrest granted to individuals for indictable offences, power of arrest is granted to officers of the company under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 if the individual:

• Fails to produce a valid ticket
  and
• Fails to pay the appropriate fare
  and
• Fails to give their name and address

However the policy of my company and some others of which I'm aware is "don't do it!"

Indeed. The law says you can, but I've yet to see a company that would back that up. Even if acting within the law, I doubt a company would stand by their staff member if it all went belly up!
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Which it would do, if you had a single ????

I know, but no everybody's ticket would be eaten by the barriers, as not everybody has a single ticket. I guess that's where speaking to the individual comes in to it, to establish the facts.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I was walking to the bus stop and in trying to force a ticket check, he bumped into me by way of trying to obstruct me. If there's any assault in the matter it's the reverse, but I digress...

That would be battery. Not assault.

(a) they are doing so as a lay-person/civilian etc,

Not so.

and (b) unless they're damn sure a crime has actually been committed (i.e. refusing to show a ticket off-premises isn't a crime), they're opening themselves up to prosecution and compensation claims

I don't think the RRA actually defines boundaries to which it can be used. Bylaws, of course, do.

 

[b0b]

So an obvious question here is, how do you deal with the situation where someone cannot legally detain you but prevents you from leaving by intentional obstruction?

 

[Chapeltom]

Surely once outside the building, and past barriers RPIs cannot check tickets?

Fare enough if the OP had vaulted the barriers and not got a ticket with them, ran off and an RPI stopped them but there's not even any suspicion it would seem.

And in reply to the last poster, could it be deemed some kind of illegal detention?

 

[Ferret]

Surely once outside the building, and past barriers RPIs cannot check tickets?

Fare enough if the OP had vaulted the barriers and not got a ticket with them, ran off and an RPI stopped them but there's not even any suspicion it would seem.

And in reply to the last poster, could it be deemed some kind of illegal detention?

An RPI can certainly check tickets beyond a barrier/ticket office. This is clearly established as a precedent in existing case law - standing at the exit of a station is fair game. I'd like Penalty Fines to issue a clarification as to the circumstances here - 100 yards down the street would not be on, but right at the exit to the station seems to be permissible. Over to Penalty Fines!