I'd tend to agree with the illegal detention point, although not quite that way. Its the "Queens Highway" or something like that, and it is not for anyone, including rail staff, to obstruct it, on any pretext. So really the rail staff person should be treated like anyone that walks up to you in the street - you can decide to talk to them, or not, and walk on. And they must not obstruct your passage.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Ticket checks outside station
- Thread starter penaltyfines
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
First class
Established Member
- Joined
- 9 Aug 2008
- Messages
- 2,731
AFAIK there is a law giving 1 mile (surrounding area from Railway land or property) of jurisdiction to "officers" of the railway, let me get back to you with a source.
Anyway, for starters:
So until I can find another source for the 1mile thing, you would need to check the Local Authority plans and see how far the railway "assets" extend. Even if you walk of, however, if he asks you whilst on railway property, and you subsequently walk away, you have committed an offence which can be passed to BTP, (Failure to show ticket on demand).
Anyway, for starters:
Railway Byelaws said:
RoR Act 1889 said:
So until I can find another source for the 1mile thing, you would need to check the Local Authority plans and see how far the railway "assets" extend. Even if you walk of, however, if he asks you whilst on railway property, and you subsequently walk away, you have committed an offence which can be passed to BTP, (Failure to show ticket on demand).
Last edited:
But what if they intentionally do? As been pointed out, pushing past them could be considered assault (and hence now gives them reason to detain you!). Are you supposed to just stand around and call the cops?
Chapeltom
Established Member
Yes but if someone is dropping someone else off at a station or is going inside for a coffee and they are asked to provide a ticket on exiting then surely this isn't right?
I think it depends alot on the station. For example, you wouldn't stop somebody outside London Waterloo station unless you have reason to. Not because it's illegal, but because there's several hundred passengers coming through the barriers and on to the concourse every few minutes usually. There's nothing to stop you doing this, but it would certainly seem a bit strange to me, unless the RPI's on to something.
If however the station is a two platform type place on a branch line, where everybody you are watching has to have alighted a train that has just arrived, it's far easier to justify should you need to.
I think what you're quoting is for where they suspect someone of breaching a bye-law not for use on all passengers because they can.
penaltyfines - Is there a possibility of showing us the location, either on Stations Made Easy (National Rail website) or on Google Street View or (even better) both?
12CSVT
Established Member
- Joined
- 18 Aug 2010
- Messages
- 2,612
The real question is why would they be checking tickets by the station entrance and not at the barrier ? (Is that not what barriers are for ? )
This could lead to situations where for example somebody visiting the station booking office to make enquiries, or waiting in the ticket hall to meet somebody off a train could be wrongly issued with a penalty fare.
This could lead to situations where for example somebody visiting the station booking office to make enquiries, or waiting in the ticket hall to meet somebody off a train could be wrongly issued with a penalty fare.
That's an easy one. They're looking for people who haven't paid their fare and are leaving railway premises without doing so. The easiest RRA prosecution of the lot, and likely to be nothing to do with Penalty Fares!
OwlMan
Established Member
Because there may be no barriers and until they have passed the booking office (first opportunity to pay) they may not committed an offence.
Peter
Chapeltom
Established Member
The OP mentioned barriers.
Whilst not condoning the actions of the staff (G4S?) you can never be sure where the railway property ends. What looks obvious is not always the case. eg I in fact own the public pavement & road in front of my house - I have all the deeds from when my property was built to confirm this, however, most reasonable thinking people (inc myself prior to an access problem with a neighbour) would have assumed that the pavement & road outside where the responsibility of the local authority highways department.
Now I don't know the area involved but as we all know the railways were and are major land owners.
If it was the G4S goons you have my sympathy.
It is an offence to travel without a ticket but not an offence to go to a station to pick up timetables/enquire about journey options, buy Advance tickets/railcards or wait in the entrance to meet someone without travelling. If they are just asking everyone leaving the station for tickets outside the entrance, how do they know they're only asking people who have travelled?
My personal opinion is that they were using intelligence being passed to them (perhaps from CCTV or other staff with radios?) and stopping certain people? Who knows, perhaps they were making notes (or hidden recordings) of people for some time.
Perhaps in this case they made a mistake, or didn't correctly identify the person they wanted to speak to.
To stop everyone coming out of a station (such as those who go in to check some times or ask for fare advice) would be silly - although I suppose they could set it up to control those coming in, perhaps giving them a special permit/pass to show upon exit if not travelling.
If they do these sorts of stings to catch regular offenders, including the 'smart' offenders who use every trick in the book to avoid being caught or prosecuted, I'm all for it.
This is why I want to know where it was being done! Outside Euston or something then you'd have a point. Outside of somehwere like Congleton then it'd be a viable thing to do!
WillPS
Established Member
This isn't quite the same, but I did once see a Northern 'barrier' up at Meadowhall, at the roadside entrance and on the SYPTE footbridge. It was pathetic, anybody could just say they were crossing to the other side legitimately.
G4S working for Metrolink and G4S working for Northern have done similar at Altrincham but within the station.
At Altrincham to get between the rail ticket office or the bus station and the two rail platforms (3 and 4) you have to walk across platform 1 (the usual Metrolink platform) to get to the stairs while G4S working for Metrolink have patrolled platform 1 checking tickets.
To get between the Metrolink platform and the car park you have to go across platform 4 while G4S working for Northern have patrolled platform 4 checking tickets.
They don't-end of really-and what about just going into the station to use facilities e.g the other week I went to St Pancras station for a business meeting-why-Sir John Betjemen is pleasant location for a meeting-would have been extremeley unhappy if challenged by an RPI but to be fair I don't think this is something that happens a lot-not from my experience of frequent travel acrosss the network.
In the past I've been critical of people taking this sort of view, but you know what, I'm beginning to smell a rat here. It's been two days since this thread started and the last contribution by the OP was early afternoon on the first day, despite various questions being asked. It's not as though they are a newbie poster either. I wonder if the responses made so far have not been what the OP wanted to see and there is actually more to this than is being posted on here?
If I'm wrong I'll apologise, but there's a little voice asking these questions in my head, and it's getting louder by the hour.
If I'm wrong I'll apologise, but there's a little voice asking these questions in my head, and it's getting louder by the hour.
I doubt it's anything sinister Mike! I just think Penalty Fines thought he'd been wronged and wanted to vent on here, it's just that a few of us suspect that in fact those RPIs may have been stood at the exit to the station and were entitled to do a grip in the hunt for some RRA prosecutions. I'm sure he held a perfectly valid ticket, but didn't see why he should show it, that's all!
You may be right, but I think it would be most unusual if anyone was approached by a member of rail staff outside a station unless there was some sort of suspicion that that person may have travelled on no ticket, or an invalid ticket.
An example that springs to mind is where someone is seen getting off the train and deliberately avoiding a ticket check, perhaps by exiting the station or platform via a staff only route. That would be suspicious behaviour, although it could also be innocent, so probably the only way to deal with it would be for someone to try and cut the person off outside to ask them for their ticket. I am not suggesting that this is what happened here, I am merely putting forward scenarios where a travelelr might be ased for a ticket having left railway land. Ticket checks outside the station are pointless in the normal course of events!
I think it is reasonable to assume that railway staff would have the same rights as store security, which is why I asked the question earlier. Not that I am 100% sure of the rights of shop staff, hence the question mark!
An example that springs to mind is where someone is seen getting off the train and deliberately avoiding a ticket check, perhaps by exiting the station or platform via a staff only route. That would be suspicious behaviour, although it could also be innocent, so probably the only way to deal with it would be for someone to try and cut the person off outside to ask them for their ticket. I am not suggesting that this is what happened here, I am merely putting forward scenarios where a travelelr might be ased for a ticket having left railway land. Ticket checks outside the station are pointless in the normal course of events!
I think it is reasonable to assume that railway staff would have the same rights as store security, which is why I asked the question earlier. Not that I am 100% sure of the rights of shop staff, hence the question mark!
It certainly could be that the RPIs were tipped off to stop this person, and didn't make a mistake or want to stop everyone, but opted NOT to use force to detain him when he pushed through.
We obviously don't know, but that version of events might make a little more sense.
To me, there must have been SOME way for the staff to know who to stop and who to let through (i.e. those who had entered the station but weren't, or hadn't, travelled).
We obviously don't know, but that version of events might make a little more sense.
To me, there must have been SOME way for the staff to know who to stop and who to let through (i.e. those who had entered the station but weren't, or hadn't, travelled).
Greenback - believe me, it happens. RPIs will stand at the exit of a station like Congleton, wait for a train to come in and the barrier the station exit. Anybody without a ticket is asked why - given they've just walked past a ticket office at the destination. A simple interview under caution and a nice easy RRA intent to avoid the fare prosecution. I'm sure some will say those are dubious tactics, but of course, if you get caught - you were the one who didn't have a ticket.....
Like I said previously, I can't believe for a minute that you 'd be stopped 100 yards down the road, but being stood at the exit of the station building and collaring people as they leave is seen as 'fair game'.
Like I said previously, I can't believe for a minute that you 'd be stopped 100 yards down the road, but being stood at the exit of the station building and collaring people as they leave is seen as 'fair game'.
That is fair enough Ferret. I got the impression from the original post that it was not at the statione xit, but a fair way outside!
Before the barriers were put in at Reading, I recall that certain individuals were stopped outside the station, in the forecourt in front of the Thre Guineas, if there was any suspicion that they hadn't bought a ticket. The RP team were very proactive at the time!
Before the barriers were put in at Reading, I recall that certain individuals were stopped outside the station, in the forecourt in front of the Thre Guineas, if there was any suspicion that they hadn't bought a ticket. The RP team were very proactive at the time!
penaltyfines
Member
- Joined
- 4 Sep 2010
- Messages
- 298
I have a life outside of this rail forum, you know!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think there's a few issues here:
(a) When do you stop needing to carry your ticket? Sure you need to have it on the train, and in a Compulsory Ticket Area (CTA). But presuming you purchased the necessary ticket to travel and it's valid, what is the soonest you can possibly discard it - I'm guessing the conditions of carriage or byelaws will dictate this. I.e., the strict liability offence, failing to have a ticket etc, when is this applicable?
Can you bin it the moment you step off the train? Is a ticket-barriered-area implicitly a CTA? If not, could you technically bin it before the barriers? On a non-barriered and non-CTA station what would happen if you binned it on the station platform and then encounter RPIs?
Obviously there's no need to retain a ticket off station premises, so therefore there can't be any ability for a RPI to ask to see one off the premises either. If stopped, you could say I binned it, jog on.
(b) What power do RPIs have on station premises - can they detain someone who they believe is committing a crime without recourse (wrongful imprisonment) if they are wrong?
(c) What power do they have off station premises?
Judging by the fact you don't need to have a ticket whilst off the premises, and if the answer to (c) is 'the same as a lay person' - I don't see how an RPI standing outside the station asking for tickets is any different from me doing it?
This is half technicality (I wonder what the law is) and half expressing my frustration of being hassled further on my way to work!
Old Timer
Established Member
(a) You must have your ticket with you at all times until you have completed your journey. For the avoidance of doubt this is normally treated as being when you have left Railway premises. You can be stopped as you LEAVE because you still should have a ticket with you.
Legally the onus remains with YOU to prove that you have held a valid ticket for the journey. A valid ticket for the sake of clarity is taken as being a ticket which covers the correct fare for the journey. For example a cheap day return or equivalent these days is not valid during the peak and therefore does not technically constitute a valid ticket.
Technically in Law you must then surrender your ticket to a railway official as it is the property of the Railway Company. In practise it is the case that you can dispense with it once you leave Railway premises or are in a place where you would not need to be able to demonstrate that you have held a valid ticket for the journey.
(b) The powers of an RPI are the equivalent of a Police Officer in certain cases, especially under the terms of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.
(c) In Law, any person may arrest another when there has been a breach of Criminal Law (Citizen's Arrest). An offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is a Criminal Offence. For the avoidance of doubt my staff years ago have arrested and detained fare evaders in the street away from Railway premises and we have successfully Prosecuted in those circumstances.
With respect to your last comment, an ordinary person is NOT a servant of the Railway Company and thus no power is conferred to them to request sight of your ticket. However IF they were to become aware that you had travelled with intent to avoid paying the fare, then they could arrest you using Citizen's Arrest powers.
As regards your first post I am unimpressed by your admission you pushed past the person. Being late or in a bad mood does not confer upon you the right to do this, and it constitutes an assault. A suitably bad mooded BT Police Officer could choose to treat this as obstruction a railway official in the course of their duties and charge you accordingly. It has been done in the past, and we have used the act as a means of further proving intent to avoid.
I am sure you would be the first to complain loudly if you had been treated in that manner. Being asked to prove you have had a ticket does not constitute being "hassled" as I am sure a Police Officer (or indeed a Magistrate) would be happy to point out had you been detained.
Legally the onus remains with YOU to prove that you have held a valid ticket for the journey. A valid ticket for the sake of clarity is taken as being a ticket which covers the correct fare for the journey. For example a cheap day return or equivalent these days is not valid during the peak and therefore does not technically constitute a valid ticket.
Technically in Law you must then surrender your ticket to a railway official as it is the property of the Railway Company. In practise it is the case that you can dispense with it once you leave Railway premises or are in a place where you would not need to be able to demonstrate that you have held a valid ticket for the journey.
(b) The powers of an RPI are the equivalent of a Police Officer in certain cases, especially under the terms of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.
(c) In Law, any person may arrest another when there has been a breach of Criminal Law (Citizen's Arrest). An offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is a Criminal Offence. For the avoidance of doubt my staff years ago have arrested and detained fare evaders in the street away from Railway premises and we have successfully Prosecuted in those circumstances.
With respect to your last comment, an ordinary person is NOT a servant of the Railway Company and thus no power is conferred to them to request sight of your ticket. However IF they were to become aware that you had travelled with intent to avoid paying the fare, then they could arrest you using Citizen's Arrest powers.
As regards your first post I am unimpressed by your admission you pushed past the person. Being late or in a bad mood does not confer upon you the right to do this, and it constitutes an assault. A suitably bad mooded BT Police Officer could choose to treat this as obstruction a railway official in the course of their duties and charge you accordingly. It has been done in the past, and we have used the act as a means of further proving intent to avoid.
I am sure you would be the first to complain loudly if you had been treated in that manner. Being asked to prove you have had a ticket does not constitute being "hassled" as I am sure a Police Officer (or indeed a Magistrate) would be happy to point out had you been detained.
I don't know the area or where they were, but if you had RPIs working in conjunction with other people giving intelligence, and they had a line of sight view of you leaving - I am sure they could argue that you should still have your ticket, as you had nowhere to dispose of your ticket from the point you left the building (and had been observed to confirm that fact).
Given you need your ticket (and why wouldn't you have it if gates hadn't taken it?) while on railway property, I see no problem.
Now if they couldn't see you, or there was a bin outside and you could have put your ticket there (but, of course, you could ask them to go back and check) then it's a bit different.
I think we need to know the exact location where all of this happened.
Given you need your ticket (and why wouldn't you have it if gates hadn't taken it?) while on railway property, I see no problem.
Now if they couldn't see you, or there was a bin outside and you could have put your ticket there (but, of course, you could ask them to go back and check) then it's a bit different.
I think we need to know the exact location where all of this happened.
(b) Indeed they are
(c) It's a bit more specific than that, and I think any 'ordinary' person seen to be arresting somebody on suspicion of fare evasion would be on a sticky wicket. The reason I typed in bold the word 'suspicion' was because the Any Person Arrest can only be carried out if the person witnesses a criminal act taking place. Now, without questioning in a lot of cases, one can't tell if fare evasion has taken place. Also, for the Any Person arrest to be viable, the offence has to equate to a possible maximum term in prison of 5-years, and only select criminal offences such as theft and criminal damage (as well as more serious ones) would warrant an any person arrest. For example, any Byelaw is a criminal offence, but you couldn't arrest somebody as a lay-person for committing one. The power mentioned in (b) relates to specifics of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, and, as you are aware, only applies to rail staff, not citizens.
- Status