Ticketing Anomalies - Starting a journey short

[Lampshade]

Why shouldn't you? NCoC says its' valid.


No, the ticket is valid to start "short" at Crewe. NCoC states that.

Old Timer does not appear to be denying that the NCoC allows it. It appears that Old Timer is ignoring the NCoC. That's how I read it...

So if for example you bought said ticket (Chester - Shrewsbury going via Crewe), if the ticket is valid to start at Crewe, but is from Chester, how are you going to get to Crewe from Chester? Not taking into account advance purchase or having bought it online.

You wouldn't realistically be able to do it unless you railhead to Crewe, but why would you do that if you have a ticket from Chester already?

This thread has descended into a hypothetical argument about a scenario that probably will never occur.

 

[amn140174]

91107- Can you not just buy the ticket at Crewe, I was under the impression you could buy tickets for any journey and not just from the station your at. Is this not how split ticketing works or do you have to get tickets from all the stations you split at.

 

[yorkie]

So if for example you bought said ticket (Chester - Shrewsbury going via Crewe), if the ticket is valid to start at Crewe, but is from Chester, how are you going to get to Crewe from Chester? Not taking into account advance purchase or having bought it online.

Any way you want. But you can buy the ticket anywhere, including at Crewe.

You wouldn't realistically be able to do it unless you railhead to Crewe, but why would you do that if you have a ticket from Chester already?

No. What Nedchester posted originally is that a ticket issued as from Chester to Shrewsbury is valid for starting a journey at Crewe, and that is correct and within the National Conditions of Carriage.

This thread has descended into a hypothetical argument about a scenario that probably will never occur.

It hasn't descended into anything. It's always been a question about starting short, which is something I've done many times, and I've asked for many times and it is perfectly legitimate.

For example, this is quite possible:-

I want to go to the bank in York. So I take the bus there. I then want to do some shopping in Leeds. So I take a train York to Leeds. I then go and visit Evil_Hippo, who lives nearer Burley Park, but if you are shopping in Leeds then you may as well walk. I then get the train back from Burley Park, to Leeds, to York, and then on to Poppleton, where I go to eat at the Wetherby Whaler. I then get a lift home courtesy of Max. This is hypothetical but entirely possible. The most appropriate ticket is a Poppleton to Burley Park, with the outward leg starting short at York and finishing short at Leeds. Perfectly valid. The price? Before 09:30, it would be £12.10 (saving £1.20 off a Leeds to York), after 09:30 it would cost £10.50 (the same price). Full fare no discounts quoted.

In fact, just a couple of weeks ago, I got a ticket to Burley Park, and on the way back I got a lift (thanks to Metcam) to Leeds station. So I started the rtn journey short. As did Yorksrob and Max. We were all perfectly entitled to do this.

And you know what? I'll do it again. Many times. It's perfectly legitimate and valid and within the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NCoC).

91107- Can you not just buy the ticket at Crewe, I was under the impression you could buy tickets for any journey and not just from the station your at. Is this not how split ticketing works or do you have to get tickets from all the stations you split at.

You can buy the ticket anywhere. But this isn't about "split" ticketing - this is the opposite of split ticketing. Rather than breaking the journey into smaller "chunks", a longer journey than you require is being paid for. This may work out cheaper for all sorts of reasons.

I'm probably 'guilty' of this perfectly valid "crime" (!) more than most as I do like to take my bike on trains, and have a cycle ride, and then board a train at a different station. This means not using the ticket to it's full extent. It is perfectly legitimate.

 

[Lampshade]

Ahh, apologies, I assumed the ticket was being bought in Chester :???:

 

[yorkie]

Ahh, apologies, I assumed the ticket was being bought in Chester :???:

It can be, but it doesn't have to be! and no worries

And to give some examples, the cycle rides that I have done with other members of this forum have included rides from Bishop Auckland to Newcastle, Sunderland to Thornaby, Whatstandwell to Tutbury & Hatton, Shalford to Shoreham-by-Sea, Stoke-on-Trent to Rose Hill Marple, and many more. It was often cheaper to buy a return ticket with extra validity that is not used in one direction (by starting/finishing "short"), than to buy singles.

 

[amn140174]

You can buy the ticket anywhere. But this isn't about "split" ticketing - this is the opposite of split ticketing. Rather than breaking the journey into smaller "chunks", a longer journey than you require is being paid for. This may work out cheaper for all sorts of reasons.

Sorry Yorkie my fault, I wasnt very clear, what I was trying to say was buying tickets from another station like buying the Hartlepool to York of a split Sunderland to York at Sunderland not at Hartlepool.

Anyway sorry for going off topic but I found a split yesterday I didnt know about, only a 60p saving but not bad for a 15 mile journey.

Single Sunderland to MetroCentre £5.50
Split Sunderland to Newcastle £2.90 Newcatle to MetroCentre £2.00
Total with Split £4.90 saving 60p

 

[Mike395]

I know I'm a bit late but....

I live in Ramsgate and regularly take the train to Canterbury - £2.70 with 16-25. Quite often, people want a CDR/Off-Peak Return from Minster (a station closer) to Canterbury. The guard, 90% of the time, will always offer to print a Ramsgate-Canterbury ticket as it is cheaper. If what you're saying is correct Old Timer, are the Southeastern guards I've overheard deliberately committing fraud against their company, despite the fact that, as Mojo states (and you've repeatedly ignored), the NCoC permits it?

Just wanted to offer a quite frequent situation where this occurs.

Mike

 

[Royston Vasey]

Single Sunderland to MetroCentre £5.50
Split Sunderland to Newcastle £2.90 Newcatle to MetroCentre £2.00
Total with Split £4.90 saving 60p

£2.90 is the maximum fare on the Metro system and as was always the case Nexus/TWPTE have set and subsidised the Sunderland-Newcastle-Metrocentre fares. This is shown by the Anytime fares being lower than the Off-Peak fares.

National Rail and Metro tickets are intervalid on Metro and Northern between Sunderland and Newcastle, meaning the NR ticket will be held (by Nexus) at the prevailing maximum Metro fare.

I suspect what has happened here is since Metro was expanded to Sunderland, the Metro maximum fare has determined the price on the SUN-NCL portion of the journey but not on the Metrocentre portion, so NCL-MCE and SUN-MCE tickets will have varied differently to the SUN-NCL.

 

[Old Timer]

I spoke to ATOC today at some length about this issue.

It was very clear that they were unaware of the fact that such a situation existed, and were surprised that this was occurring.

As they were unaware of this scenario they were unable to offer any comment or advice and I have left it with them to consider the matter and the implications.

 

[Pumbaa]

It was very clear that they were unaware of the fact that such a situation existed, and were surprised that this was occurring.

They shouldn't be - the rules permit it!

 

[Old Timer]

They shouldn't be - the rules permit it!

The rules permit it provided that the ticket is valid for break of journey, but the distinction is that they were unaware that the ticket from the further station was cheaper, and thus the NCoCs have NOT considered that scenario as ATOC did not realise that the case existed. Their view was that the cheaper ticket would have restrictions on it preventing a break of journey and thus it being used to avoid the proper fare.

Simply put ATOC have never considered that someone would buy a cheaper ticket from a station further out along the route in order to avoid paying a higher fare for a shorter journey, and were somewhat lost for words when I raised the question.

It would appear that they are less than streetwise in many ways, and blindingly obvious that there has been a large loss of Corporate memory/Railway experience.

 

[theblackwatch]

Do you really believe they were unaware that such fares exist? If true it smacks of incompetence. They have been mentioned in the press (not just the railway mags, the BBC too) on numerous occasions. I am sure Barry Doe has mentioned instances of fares like this in his columns before, and I would be 100% certain ATOC read what he writes.

 

[dan_atki]

The problem is that ATOC do not set any fares themselves (except those within the London zones - but this was a requirement of a zonal structure because of the worry of TOCs falling foul of the Competition Act if they were allowed to collude in setting fares).

In cases where there is a 'loop' of line, then changing such instances so that the cheaper fares did not exist would cause huge anomalies in the fares that are using the ticket to its fullest.

Let's take the Harrogate loop as an example - as seen to the top right of: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/print_maps/liverpool.pdf

A ticket from York to Leeds is valid either way around the loop. Via Harrogate is allowed because of the direct train rule, via Micklefield because of the shortest distance rule. As such, not even the Routeing Guide can be changed to disallow such anomalies.

Now say someone wants to go from Burley Park to York. Going via Harrogate is again allowed because of the direct train rule, and the shortest route is still via Leeds and Micklefield. I suspect the majority of passengers go via Harrogate. Even if it is a longer journey time, it is without a change at Leeds. Going this way, with Burley Park the stop after Leeds, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect the fare to be cheaper.

However, there are going to be a few people who go via Leeds. Because of the nature of the line via Harrogate it'd be rather foolish to introduce a no break of journey restriction on all tickets around the line, then again the question of whether ATOC can force a TOC to do this is probably questionable in itself.

A similar situation occurs in Southampton with SWT's figure of 6 route.

Admittedly these anomalies are rather rare but it would be very difficult to iron them out. That's not to say it isn't possible but that would require a slight change to the NCoC, at the approval of the DfT.

 

[yorkie]

The rules permit it provided that the ticket is valid for break of journey, but the distinction is that they were unaware that the ticket from the further station was cheaper, and thus the NCoCs have NOT considered that scenario as ATOC did not realise that the case existed. Their view was that the cheaper ticket would have restrictions on it preventing a break of journey and thus it being used to avoid the proper fare.

Are you saying ATOC are considering introducing break of journey restrictions on Anytime and Off Peak Day tickets?!

If so, some calls need to be made to people higher up at ATOC....

Simply put ATOC have never considered that someone would buy a cheaper ticket from a station further out along the route in order to avoid paying a higher fare for a shorter journey, and were somewhat lost for words when I raised the question.

I'm amazed at that. But, let's be honest here, not everyone at ATOC is that dumb. It's just the people that answer the phones are not experts by any means.

It would appear that they are less than streetwise in many ways, and blindingly obvious that there has been a large loss of Corporate memory/Railway experience.

Agreed!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Let's take the Harrogate loop as an example - as seen to the top right of: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/print_maps/liverpool.pdf

There are not much in the way of anomalies on the Harrogate Loop line, which is probably because the people who set the fares do have a clue about how ticketing works. Nevertheless, a £1.20 saving can be made on Anytime Day fares, quite legitimately. I'd like to see ATOC try to introduce a break of journey restriction on that!

 

[bakerstreet]

I am sure we would all like to thank Old Timer for his help in starting the ball rolling by contacting ATOC as this type of - totally legal, totally within the rules, totally understandable, totally fair, decent, legal, honest and truthful - money saving for us the passenger is a disgrace!

In a show of fair play and equality, please could he also contact ATOC to arrange they stop TOCs cease sneakily raising fares by changing restrictions and renaming tickets (eg transferring some Savers to Anytimes and upping the cost or FGW / XC changing fare structures), by imposing 20per cent increases (eg SWT off-peak/super off peak in 2007) at a time of recession, by ensuring all fares from all operators are displayed on Virgin's site (not the full London Midland fares) etc etc (cont P94).

What I love about a minority - not all - of those who work on the railways who are sometimes highly paid (40k?) and never have to pay anything like full fare for a ticket, is that they love to close anything which benefits the passenger, and applauding their company when they try to rip us off!

I always buy a ticket. It is always valid. But I won't pay more than I need to. That's legal. That's life.

I wonder what old timer might do if they did away with his priv tickets.....

 

[323235]

Simply put ATOC have never considered that someone would buy a cheaper ticket from a station further out along the route in order to avoid paying a higher fare for a shorter journey, and were somewhat lost for words when I raised the question.
.

They obviously arn't very bright then are they

and It would be a tad bit rediculous if they prevented BOJ
Why should people pay morewhen travelling from A to C just because they may need to get off for reason at B?

Buses offer Dayriders and Day tickets which allow you to do this
Apart from in London,PTE and Ranger/Rover areas and on Southern there is no day ticket on trains which allows the same flexability
which is why BOJ is so important

 

[Old Timer]

Are you saying ATOC are considering introducing break of journey restrictions on Anytime and Off Peak Day tickets?!

If so, some calls need to be made to people higher up at ATOC.....

I doubt very much that would be the case, as this was never discussed simply the question of wheter or not it was legitimate for someone to buy a cheaper ticket from a station further out in order to avoid paying the correct fare.

The person I spoke to ultimately was the senior man and was not aware that this situation existed.

bakerstreet
Please do not attempt to moralise this and paint me as some sort of baddie. You are gaining pecuniary advantage to the disadvantage of others.

Perople who do this trick are depriving the Industry ultimately of money, they are artifically lowering the revenue stream from the station(s) concerned, and they are costing me money as a taxpayer, because remember it is also MY taxes that go towards subsidising this. In the long term there is also a potential impact on jobs.

That said I do not believe that there are THAT many situations but I could of course be wrong. I also doubt that ATOC will do anything about the situation.

If you want to discuss moral values then I shall be happy to do so, but I suggest a little self -reflection on your part might be in order ?

It has always been the case that it is considered to be fare evasion to deliberately avoid paying the correct fare for the journey actually being undertaken. Clause 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is quite clear on that. You are exploiting an anomally for personal gain.

As for raising fares and other issues, the public wanted BR gone and the Railways Privatised. They now have their wish. Sometimes it is best not to wish too hard as that wish might be granted.

Any objections relating to increasing fares should be referred to your local Labour MP, after all it is they who have been in power for the greatest part of Privatisation, have refused to honour their Manifesto Committment to re-nationalise, and have, under Brown as Chancellor and later PM, used the Railways as a convenient cash cow to subsidise their reckless and uncontrolled spending. TOCs make an agreed profit for running services that are subsidised by the taxpayer and are awarded Franchises by the Government. It is them whom you should be looking towards for answers.

323235
The debate did not concern a break of journey it concerned the purchasing of a ticket from a station further out in order to avoid paying the correct fare from station B to A. The journey being B to A (and presumably return).

 

[glynn80]

My first post for a while but this topic has captured my attention!

The person I spoke to ultimately was the senior man and was not aware that this situation existed.

Who did you speak to at ATOC Old Timer (if you do not wish to post via the forum, of course you can PM me)? The reason I ask is that I know many people at ATOC and I know their working practices back to front and I seriously doubt that you spoke to their senior man on the issue!

 

[nedchester]

My first post for a while but this topic has captured my attention!



Who did you speak to at ATOC Old Timer (if you do not wish to post via the forum, of course you can PM me)? The reason I ask is that I know many people at ATOC and I know their working practices back to front and I seriously doubt that you spoke to their senior man on the issue!

Maybe the 'senior man' was just humouring him?!

Let's face it there are all sorts of loopholes (starting short, finishing short, combining tickets etc etc). The TOCs tolerate them as they rely on most passengers not knowing about them!

 

[bakerstreet]

Old timer I don't think you're a baddie. I am sure your heart is in the right place.

My point is the TOCs also artificially raise their income by the confusing and high fares,the draconian and continuing stripping of validity of tickets etc etc.

I like the TOCs am taking advantage of the system.

I understand what you say about being morally obliged to pay the correct fare for the journey being paid.

But isn't the split tickets the same as starting short? Ie split tickets save money on the journey and reduce the money going to the TOCs but that is also legal. Is it immoral? I don't think it is - do you?

Split tickets and starting short reduce income to TOCs. In both cases though the reason there is any variation in both is because the TOCs have artificially raised the fares on some journeys.

Is split tickets illegal and immoral? If so why. If not, in what way is starting short any different given the Ncoc allow you to do both.

In all honesty, I only discovered 'travelling short'because I started buying a longer distance journey to give me extra freedom to a major station a few stops further away as on Sundays there was only an hourly service from my station. It was then I discovered it was cheaper! I was planning to give the TOC more money for this ticket. Is it my fault (or immoral or illegal) that the TOC charges less?

Given these circumstances how would this fair in your judgement?

I do not always use the major station if I happen to be on target for my hourly service at my station, but I do if I am not.

Anyone else care to judge me on this?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Old timer I don't think you're a baddie. I am sure your heart is in the right place.

My point is the TOCs also artificially raise their income by the confusing and high fares,the draconian and continuing stripping of validity of tickets etc etc.

I like the TOCs am taking advantage of the system.

I understand what you say about being morally obliged to pay the correct fare for the journey being paid.

But isn't the split tickets the same as starting short? Ie split tickets save money on the journey and reduce the money going to the TOCs but that is also legal. Is it immoral? I don't think it is - do you?

Split tickets and starting short reduce income to TOCs. In both cases though the reason there is any variation in both is because the TOCs have artificially raised the fares on some journeys.

Is split tickets illegal and immoral? If so why. If not, in what way is starting short any different given the Ncoc allow you to do both.

In all honesty, I only discovered 'travelling short'because I started buying a longer distance journey to give me extra freedom to a major station a few stops further away as on Sundays there was only an hourly service from my station. It was then I discovered it was cheaper! I was planning to give the TOC more money for this ticket. Is it my fault (or immoral or illegal) that the TOC charges less?

Given these circumstances how would this fair in your judgement?

I do not always use the major station if I happen to be on target for my hourly service at my station, but I do if I am not.

Anyone else care to judge me on this?!

Maybe my moral compass is seriously skewed!

 

[PTF62]

It has always been the case that it is considered to be fare evasion to deliberately avoid paying the correct fare for the journey actually being undertaken. Clause 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is quite clear on that. You are exploiting an anomally for personal gain.

So I assume that anyone who has bought an annual season ticket between Ryde Esplanade and Ryde St John's Road, but has never been to the Isle of Wight should also be prosecuted...

 

[Old Timer]

Glynn80
PM sent

bakerstreet
Split tickets are legal, and permitted provided the passenger complies with specific rules.

The point to be considered in the cheaper ticket from another station is that there is actually a loss of total revenue, which does not happen with split tickets, although I have a feeling that this was prohibited in the past.

The contentious point that no-one has answered is the fact that the Railway is being deprived of reveue, and the correct fare for the journey being undertaken is not being paid. When you buy a ticket you enter into a Contract for THAT journey, so the Contract that you enter into is form C to A. You are not travelling C to A you are travelling B to A, and what is more you are deliberately avoiding paying the correct fare.

It could be argued its almost like buying an item at a lower price in one shop and then returning it to a different shop which is selling it at a higher price for refund. In that case you would be gaining a pecuniary advantage.

The outcome is the same with the fare question, you are gaining a pecuniary advantage at the expense of the TOC.

Section 2 of the Theft Act 1978 makes interesting reading...
Evasion of liability by deception
(1)Subject to subsection (2) below, where a person by any deception—
(a)dishonestly secures the remission of the whole or part of any existing liability to make a payment, whether his own liability or another’s.

The liability is the fare from B to A.

It also has something to say about those who assist in such.

2 Evasion of liability by deception
(2)For purposes of this section “liability” means legally enforceable liability.
(4)For purposes of subsection (1)(c) “obtains” includes obtaining for another or enabling another to obtain.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So I assume that anyone who has bought an annual season ticket between Ryde Esplanade and Ryde St John's Road, but has never been to the Isle of Wight should also be prosecuted...

?????????

 

[nedchester]

So I assume that anyone who has bought an annual season ticket between Ryde Esplanade and Ryde St John's Road, but has never been to the Isle of Wight should also be prosecuted...

Or Sheffield to Attercliffe Road or Manchester Piccadilly to Oxford Road in the old days of the Annual Season Ticket holders railcard! - That was a good offer.

 

[323235]

323235
The debate did not concern a break of journey it concerned the purchasing of a ticket from a station further out in order to avoid paying the correct fare from station B to A. The journey being B to A (and presumably return).

Yes but if you take away BOJ to stop people travelling short, you also take away people's ability to buy a ticket from say Birmingham to Bristol, which allows them to get off at Cheltenham if they need to.

Though in Reality your actually doing them a favour in that case as by splitting their journey at Cheltenham they can then buy £18.00 + £7.40 Off Peak Day Returns instead of £42.10 Off Peak Return

So from the railways point of view they're actually losing themselves £17, just by preventing people from buying a direct ticket from A to C stopping off at B for an hour or two, which most average pax would probably do.

This would probably then make people more aware of just how flawed the fare system is.

A good example of where someone would pay more by having to get two tickets instead of one is Poynton-Nottingham getting off at Sheffield

Poynton-Nottingham is £15.10

so by having to buy two tickets it becomes
Poynton-Sheffield £14.20
Sheffield-Nottingham £10.60

So they've just paid £9.10 extra because they want to have dinner with friend in Sheffield on the way back from Home to Uni!

 

[Old Timer]

323235
Who said anything about taking away any BOJ ?????

The issue has never been about anything other than people using B with a ticket from C. They NEVER go to C and NEVER will do. They are purely buying a C to A ticket to avoid paying the fare B to A. In doing so they are depressing the ticket revenue at B, with what long term consequences we do not know, they are also obtaining the journey for less than they should be paying.

It has never been about someone lining up a series of tickets along a route they plan to take. Such a case is perfectly within the rules.

 

[nedchester]

323235
They are purely buying a C to A ticket to avoid paying the fare B to A. In doing so they are depressing the ticket revenue at B, with what long term consequences we do not know, they are also obtaining the journey for less than they should be paying.

So what it is a perfectly legal loophole allowed by the NCoC.

 

[yorksrob]

bakerstreet
As for raising fares and other issues, the public wanted BR gone and the Railways Privatised. They now have their wish. Sometimes it is best not to wish too hard as that wish might be granted.

The public didn't want it. From what I remember rail privatisation was a deeply unpopular policy at the time, even inspiring the phrase "poll tax on wheels"

 

[Old Timer]

The public didn't want it. From what I remember rail privatisation was a deeply unpopular policy at the time, even inspiring the phrase "poll tax on wheels"

It formed part of the Major Conservative Government's 1992 General Election Manifesto.

I also remember seeing practically none of the media defending the Railway at all.

We have now had nearly 13 years of Labour (mis)rule and the public have not been clammering for the Railways to be renationalised at all.

Where are the banner headlines and the loud cries of the media screaming for renationalisation ?

The silence is deafening.

 

[Lampshade]

Yes but there was no alternative government back in 1992, Neil Kinnock??? John Major only got in as 'better the devil you know' as I suspect Gordon Brown (Alan Johnson?) may do next year.

 

[Old Timer]

True but look who we ended up with !

The very two men who even on the day before the General Election were promising renationalisation, and then went on to become the greatest Privatisers of all, by far going way and beyond what the Conservatrives had ever considered right.

And on the opportunity to easily renationalise they both refused and insisted on re-privatising SET

And people still will say that Labour are the Party FOR railways !

And the turkeys even voted them back in twice more !