TOC County Court Claim

[dquebec]

If it were true that the appeals service is the only point of contact for a PF, I doubt a court will accept the TOC ignoring correspondence threatening court action.

I'd also argue that the TOC is directly liable for breach of contract if they breached the contract of the ticket, the PF is a diversion..

Have you actually exhausted all lines of communication? Have you rang them?

If you haven't had so much as an automatic email acknowledgement, there's a problem your end more than likely, (junk/spam email folder or sending to incorrect address).

I really don't think anybody is deliberately ignoring you.

 

[najaB]

If you haven't had so much as an automatic email acknowledgement, there's a problem your end more than likely, (junk/spam email folder or sending to incorrect address).

I agree with this, it is very unusual to not receive an auto-reply when sending an email to a company.

 

[kingston]

I haven't sent any e-mails, these were 3 detailed letters posted to their registered business address...

 

[najaB]

I haven't sent any e-mails, these were 3 detailed letters posted to their registered business address...

Ah, sorry. I had only scanned the end of the thread.

That does beg the question though if you have exhausted all means of communication - I would follow up the letter with an email.

 

[dquebec]

I haven't sent any e-mails, these were 3 detailed letters posted to their registered business address...

Registered business addresses and the address of where these TOCs actually operate from are usually completely different locations!

Just send them a quick email and you'll get a reply within a few weeks.

You definitely will be on a hiding to nowhere if you try and start a civil claim when you haven't tried other methods of communication with them.

Either pick up the phone, or send them an email. That way you can keep track of the entire process.

However, seeing as you appear to have left this for several months without making any attempt to try these other methods - you've probably left it far too late for a meaningful response.

 

[kingston]

I don't like dealing with a company by phone as there is no easy reference of what was discussed.

I hadn't contacted them by e-mail admittedly, but given the seriousness of the letters they were sending me I merely continued with their form of communication.

I would find it hard to believe that letters to a registered business address are not considered sufficient by a court..

 

[DaleCooper]

I'd also argue that the TOC is directly liable for breach of contract if they breached the contract of the ticket, the PF is a diversion.!

Breach of contract or simply human error? Sometimes things go wrong that is why there is an appeals process in place. You seem to be allowing your sense of injustice to outweigh your better judgment. Was it really necessary to go to these lengths over what could be a simple mistake when there is a process specifically designed to correct such errors.

Incidentally perhaps the T&Cs of your ticket specified that the appeals process was to be used in such circumstances.

 

[hounddog]

Breach of contract or simply human error?

Are you suggesting that 'accidentally' breaking a contract through human error absolves the company of its liability?

 

[kingston]

I do of course have a sense of injustice as I believe an injustice has happened, the question is whether my attempts to contact them are reasonable or not.

I've just checked and the first two letters were sent to the primary 'Contact Us' address on their website, and the last to their registered business address.

I do think that's reasonable in the circumstances but I appreciate your comments, at the time I could have also pursued IPFAS but given the letter before action to the company concerned I think the time for that has passed.

 

[DaleCooper]

Are you suggesting that 'accidentally' breaking a contract through human error absolves the company of its liability?

No, I'm suggesting keeping things in perspective. Does every minor error by an employee have to result in legal action?

 

[OwlMan]

Did you actually appeal the penalty fare with IPFAS - if not you have not followed the correct appeal process.

 

[kingston]

No, I'm suggesting keeping things in perspective. Does every minor error by an employee have to result in legal action?

I would imagine that failing to reply to successive letters and a warning of legal action might reasonably result in legal action though?

If I ignored a final letter before warning, would a defence of 'well you could have e-mailed me' go down well?
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Did you actually appeal the penalty fare with IPFAS - if not you have not followed the correct appeal process.

I copied my first letter to the contact details on the penalty fare, which outlined why I believed it was invalid.

 

[DaleCooper]

I would imagine that failing to reply to successive letters and a warning of legal action might reasonably result in legal action though?

If I ignored a final letter before warning, would a defence of 'well you could have e-mailed me' go down well?

But all of this might (I emphasise "might") have been unnecessary if you had followed the appeals process, the result being a quicker resolution and less letter writing without the possible court hearing to deal with. However I get the impression that you actually relish the idea of your day in court, good luck, I know I wouldn't want it.

 

[John Palmer]

The pre-action protocols cater for a number of closely circumscribed causes of action, none of which are likely to arise from a a ticket validity dispute. However, the Practice Direction as to Pre-action Conduct is pertinent to prospective civil proceedings arising from such a dispute – it can be found at https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/pd_pre-action_conduct. Note, in particular Paragraph 13:

"If a dispute proceeds to litigation, the court will expect the parties to have complied with a relevant pre-action protocol or this Practice Direction. The court will take into account non-compliance when giving directions for the management of proceedings (see CPR 3.1(4) to (6)) and when making orders for costs (see CPR 44.3(5)(a)). The court will consider whether all parties have complied in substance with the terms of the relevant pre-action protocol or this Practice Direction and is not likely to be concerned with minor or technical infringements, especially when the matter is urgent (for example an application for an injunction)." [My emphasis]

Failure to engage with a prospective claimant who observes the PD's requirements may render the defendant vulnerable to a costs penalty. Correspondingly, a defendant's failure to respond to a properly framed Letter of Claim may provide a claimant with a shield against an adverse costs award even if his claim should fail.

Hilariously, the learned panel of Judges who authored the Handbook for LiP's observe that "The pre-action protocols are high-minded, very lengthy, over complicated and, essentially, counter-productive" before going on to say that you should still follow them. Now there's a vote of confidence in the Civil Procedure Rules regime for you! From the costs perspective they are, nonetheless, a useful weapon in the litigant’s armoury.

You should also beware of the fact that the Handbook was writen in 2013. Since then, the hourly rate of costs that may be allowed to LiP's unable to prove a greater level of loss appears to have risen to £19.00 – see CPR PD 46 para. 3.4. The handbook's text may be out of date in other respects.

 

[Llanigraham]

I had a valid ticket which I presented at the time. I know you're all itching to discuss the validity of the ticket, but the question I'm asking is, given that the ticket is valid, how to deal with an invalid PF
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With respect, if a penalty fare was incorrectly issued, I shouldn't have to deal with a 3rd party - dealing directly with the defendant and a letter before action should suffice if they're just ignoring me?

You keep saying this, but how do we know that?

There are plenty of examples in this section where people have said exactly the same thing but when the full facts have been presented we have been able to show that in fact they were NOT valid.

Unless you can tell us the details of the journey and the tickets held every reply we give is conjecture, and therefore any advice given cannot guarantee to be correct.

 

[bb21]

You keep saying this, but how do we know that?

We don't need to be sure of that.

If the OP got it wrong, well, that's his problem. That's the way I see it.

 

[DaleCooper]

The pre-action protocols cater for a number of closely circumscribed causes of action, none of which are likely to arise from a a ticket validity dispute. However, the Practice Direction as to Pre-action Conduct is pertinent to prospective civil proceedings arising from such a dispute – it can be found at https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/pd_pre-action_conduct. Note, in particular Paragraph 13:

"If a dispute proceeds to litigation, the court will expect the parties to have complied with a relevant pre-action protocol or this Practice Direction. The court will take into account non-compliance when giving directions for the management of proceedings (see CPR 3.1(4) to (6)) and when making orders for costs (see CPR 44.3(5)(a)). The court will consider whether all parties have complied in substance with the terms of the relevant pre-action protocol or this Practice Direction and is not likely to be concerned with minor or technical infringements, especially when the matter is urgent (for example an application for an injunction)." [My emphasis]

Failure to engage with a prospective claimant who observes the PD's requirements may render the defendant vulnerable to a costs penalty. Correspondingly, a defendant's failure to respond to a properly framed Letter of Claim may provide a claimant with a shield against an adverse costs award even if his claim should fail.

Hilariously, the learned panel of Judges who authored the Handbook for LiP's observe that "The pre-action protocols are high-minded, very lengthy, over complicated and, essentially, counter-productive" before going on to say that you should still follow them. Now there's a vote of confidence in the Civil Procedure Rules regime for you! From the costs perspective they are, nonetheless, a useful weapon in the litigant’s armoury.

You should also beware of the fact that the Handbook was writen in 2013. Since then, the hourly rate of costs that may be allowed to LiP's unable to prove a greater level of loss appears to have risen to £19.00 – see CPR PD 46 para. 3.4. The handbook's text may be out of date in other respects.

I note that in paragraph 14:

14. The court may decide that there has been a failure of compliance when a party has—

(a) not provided sufficient information to enable the objectives in paragraph 3 to be met;

(b) not acted within a time limit set out in a relevant protocol, or within a reasonable period; or

(c) unreasonably refused to use a form of ADR, or failed to respond at all
to an invitation to do so.

Could the appeals process be seen as an ADR (Alternative dispute resolution)?

 

[najaB]

Unless you can tell us the details of the journey and the tickets held every reply we give is conjecture, and therefore any advice given cannot guarantee to be correct.

The OP asked for advice on a specific legal process in a given situation and we can give advice on the process to be followed. What we can't do is advise on if it is actually the correct process to follow - I believe the OP has accepted that any advice is given on this basis.

 

[hounddog]

No, I'm suggesting keeping things in perspective. Does every minor error by an employee have to result in legal action?

Well, if the employer fails to deal with that error through other channels what's the alternative?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Could the appeals process be seen as an ADR (Alternative dispute resolution)?

ADR normally refers to arbitration, concilliation or mediation, and these should be concluded and have failed before litigation commences.

From what I gather from kingston's reports on here, the only attempt is by confrontational correspondence to the Company's registered address. In my opinion, the parties appear not to have engaged with the issue in front of us, and ADR has not begun. On the other hand, I cannot say that relations between the parties has bronken down, but rather that there is no relation between them. If I am right, then this is a good example of the need for, and benefit of, mediation; mediation to enable the constructive communication which the parties have been unable or unwilling to perform. A Claim in the County Court is not the appropriate place to achieve this resolution.

 

[CheesyChips]

I'd be inclined to suggest that the OP really work out why there has been no reply to their correpondence as it seems a bit odd to me. Perhaps a phone call to the TOC to confirm receipt.

If the initial defense of the TOC happens to be the fact that they have no knowledge of the pre-court action, it probably won't resonate well with the judge.

Some two-way correspondence with the 3rd party company that deals with penalty fares sounds wise to me.

 

[DaleCooper]

ADR normally refers to arbitration, concilliation or mediation, and these should be concluded and have failed before litigation commences.

Understood, I'm just wondering how a court would view the failure to use available channels to resolve the matter.

 

[CheesyChips]

Understood, I'm just wondering how a court would view the failure to use available channels to resolve the matter.

I'm not legally trained but have used the small claims track many times.

You're not obliged to use ADR or mediation but you are required to be in a situation where communication has broken down or neither party will budge and the only way to move forward is to involve a 3rd party arbitor, which will be the court.

To take a case to court, it needs to be the last resort and you should be in a position to demonstrate that.

 

[kingston]

ADR normally refers to arbitration, concilliation or mediation, and these should be concluded and have failed before litigation commences.

From what I gather from kingston's reports on here, the only attempt is by confrontational correspondence to the Company's registered address. In my opinion, the parties appear not to have engaged with the issue in front of us, and ADR has not begun. On the other hand, I cannot say that relations between the parties has bronken down, but rather that there is no relation between them. If I am right, then this is a good example of the need for, and benefit of, mediation; mediation to enable the constructive communication which the parties have been unable or unwilling to perform. A Claim in the County Court is not the appropriate place to achieve this resolution.

Your psychic powers are quite remarkable if you can unilaterally determine that my correspondence including initial letter to the TOC was confrontational.

Quite remarkable, top marks to you sir.
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I'd be inclined to suggest that the OP really work out why there has been no reply to their correpondence as it seems a bit odd to me. Perhaps a phone call to the TOC to confirm receipt.

If the initial defense of the TOC happens to be the fact that they have no knowledge of the pre-court action, it probably won't resonate well with the judge.

Some two-way correspondence with the 3rd party company that deals with penalty fares sounds wise to me.

I have written successive letters to them at both their advertised address, and their registered business address; I'm not saying it's impossible for them to claim no knowledge of the pre-court action, but in doing so they could only demonstrate incompetence...

 

[455driver]

I have written successive letters to them at both their advertised address, and their registered business address; I'm not saying it's impossible for them to claim no knowledge of the pre-court action, but in doing so they could only demonstrate incompetence...

Have you sent any letters to the actual appeals address?

 

[kingston]

Have you sent any letters to the actual appeals address?

My first letter to Southern was copied to the address on the Penalty Fare.

 

[455driver]

My first letter to Southern was copied to the address on the Penalty Fare.

Was it the address if you wanted to appeal or another generic address?

 

[bnm]

But we don't know that for certain, since the OP has refused to give us any details of the original "case". All we have is his opinion.
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And again, supposition!
We need FACTS!!

On this board all one can do is accept the OP's words and comment and advise based on that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was it the address if you wanted to appeal or another generic address?

Are you saying there might be more than one address printed on a Penalty Fare Notice? if so that's a recipe for confusion.

The OP has already stated they sent a letter to the appeals body outlining the reasons why they thought the PF was invalid. That is enough to be accepted as an appeal.

 

[CheesyChips]

I have written successive letters to them at both their advertised address, and their registered business address; I'm not saying it's impossible for them to claim no knowledge of the pre-court action, but in doing so they could only demonstrate incompetence...

I don't disbelieve you. But larger companies sometimes publish a separate address for correspondence because the head office address isn't capable of accepting inbound mail not intended for a specific person at that location.

I'm not commenting on whether this is an excuse for them or not, just trying to establish some touchpoints in reality. I'm sure you would rather sort this out amicably without resorting to CC.

I trust you're sending letters that require a signature on arrival (and for which you have a tracking code) so you can prove they signed for it at the address?

 

[CyrusWuff]

As I see it, there are three key questions to answer:

Question 1: What address was the appeal sent to? There are two addresses on a PFN, one for payments and one for appeals. Send it to the wrong one, and you won't get a response.

Question 2: Was it actually worded as an appeal? Again, if it wasn't immediately obvious that it was an appeal rather than a complaint, IPFAS won't respond.

Question 3: Was it sent in time? If it wasn't received within 21 days of the PFN being issued, IPFAS won't consider it. So if you sent it by post on day 20, that's too late, as the delivery target for First Class post is three working days, and five working days for Second Class.