Todmorden Curve

[PR1Berske]

Theres never been a service pattern decided but the early favourite of planners was extending the Wigan-Rochdale via Victoria service to Blackburn via Burnley. Wouldnt be a circular service (with their inherent problems) but would be a horseshoe on its side.

But Wigan - Vic could be extended to Yorkshire if the Northern Hub whatsit thingy gets done as the DfT would like, so mayhaps not.

 

[WatcherZero]

But Wigan - Vic could be extended to Yorkshire if the Northern Hub whatsit thingy gets done as the DfT would like, so mayhaps not.

Theres 4 services from/through Wigan,
Rochdale-Wigan (hourly)
Manchester Airport-Southport (hourly)
Southport-Victoria (hourly)
Kirkby-Victoria (hourly) (Kirkby-Wigan portion of service will be reduced to a Shuttle service under HLOS 2014-2019)

From the next timetable change the Kirkby service will start in Stalybridge and end in Victoria and the Southport service will start in Victoria and terminate at Stalybridge (or vice versa, difficult to remember) with the net effect of extending one Wigan service each way to Stalybridge without using any more rolling stock. Theres also a proposal being developed to combine a Marple service with a Southport running to provide a direct cross city link. Theres no plans ever even been mooted to provide a service to Yorkshire, probably unlikely to happen unless they decided to electrify the Wigan lines as well.

So basically, plenty of room to extend the Rochdale service to Lancashire and little chance of a Wigan-Yorkshire service.

 

[PR1Berske]

Thanks WatcherZero, appreciate it.

 

[Nym]

Theres 4 services from/through Wigan,
Rochdale-Wigan (hourly)
Manchester Airport-Southport (hourly)
Southport-Victoria (hourly)
Kirkby-Victoria (hourly) (Kirkby-Wigan portion of service will be reduced to a Shuttle service under HLOS 2014-2019)

*COUGHS* Five...

Vic - Wigan via Bolton 2tph, 1tph call all stations between, t'other calls stations between Bolton and Wigan.
Vic - Kirkby / Southport 2pth via Atherton
Airport - Southport via Bolton...

 

[WatcherZero]

Four service routes is what I said, Im not counting duplication.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can someone clarify for me the projected west-facing bay platform layout at Rochdale station. Will there be one or two new bay platforms and what services will these services likely to be that will use these that are said to be contained in forward service provision contained in the documentation issued so far.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Can someone clarify for me the projected west-facing bay platform layout at Rochdale station. Will there be one or two new bay platforms and what services will these services likely to be that will use these that are said to be contained in forward service provision contained in the documentation issued so far.

I can.



The specification given to Northern Hub is for a single Manchester-facing bay platform capable of accomodating a 4-car unit.
There is no requirement to retain the Yorkshire facing bay.
The service pattern being used to test options has the Wigan (Kirby/Southport) services terminating at Rochdale rather than at Victoria, four terminators per hour.

The preferred layout (as I understand it) appears to make Rochdale a three-track station, presumably with the middle line bi-directional at one end.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is no requirement to retain the Yorkshire facing bay.

The demise of the heavy rail Oldham loop line service which used this bay platform would be now one reason for this, but since that facility already exists, it would be a shame to lose it, as it could prove useful, especially from 2014 onwards when the trans-Pennine route will be added to by the new services of those using the Todmorden chord, if part-journeys could be envisaged and for operational reasons during engineering works that could preclude direct running.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

The demise of the heavy rail Oldham loop line service which used this bay platform would be now one reason for this, but since that facility already exists, it would be a shame to lose it, as it could prove useful, especially from 2014 onwards when the trans-Pennine route will be added to by the new services of those using the Todmorden chord, if part-journeys could be envisaged and for operational reasons during engineering works that could preclude direct running.

I did write:

There is no requirement to retain the Yorkshire facing bay.

But I also wrote:

make Rochdale a three-track station

.

It is possible that in remodelling Rochdale into a station with three lines, the retention of platform two may actually cost money, not least to make it compliant with current standards, but also in remodelling the connection to it. With no booked service and good opportunities to provide the same facility elsewhere (three lines still leaves one 200m long platform face unused), how could you justify any spend on a bay which at best holds a four-car train?

 

[ashworth]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but too long a thread to search every posting.

In this scheme to run a 'fast' service from Burnley to Manchester via Todmorden are there any plans to increase the line speed over Copy Pit between Burnley and Todmorden?
I occasionally use the existing service between Leeds and Blackpool and find that section of the route extremely slow. I can understand why the section at the Todmorden end is slow with the very steep gradients and curves up through Portsmouth but I can't understand why it remains so slow over the top and down into Burnley.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but too long a thread to search every posting.

In this scheme to run a 'fast' service from Burnley to Manchester via Todmorden are there any plans to increase the line speed over Copy Pit between Burnley and Todmorden?
I occasionally use the existing service between Leeds and Blackpool and find that section of the route extremely slow. I can understand why the section at the Todmorden end is slow with the very steep gradients and curves up through Portsmouth but I can't understand why it remains so slow over the top and down into Burnley.

It can be done, but the business case produced by the (pre-curve) feasibility study didn't support it.

 

[WatcherZero]

Probably not that novel for others but for me the prospect of the service becoming a ribbon like arrangement, starting in stalybridge and ending in Rochdale or vice versa is quite novel when all existing services are simple back and forths.

( http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQexho-1bJvmfEyKiDurgkL1vSzw8iW83hk8cU4SIWAbnWNyRs8 )

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

11:54am Tuesday 31st July 2012 in News

REPAIRS Holme Tunnel, Cliviger
PASSENGERS won't start direct train journeys from Burnley to Manchester along the Todmorden Curve until after May 2014, it has been announced.

Major work is set to be carried out on a railway tunnel before Manchester-bound trains are allowed through. Before the service is launched the following May though, engineers are looking to strengthen Holme Tunnel in Cliviger, on the Copy Pit Line running from Burnley to Todmorden.

Keith Lumley, of Network Rail, said: “This is to correct distortions in the tunnel that are being caused by movement in the hillside above. “The movement is very slight and quite normal but it does mean that the rail tunnel is no longer perfectly cylindrical so we will have to do some re-profiling work to get it back into shape again.” Final dates and costings for the work have not yet been set but it is envisaged it will be completed by early 2014.

Mr Lumley added: “It makes sense to delay the introduction of the new train services until the tunnel work is complete.”Further meetings are planned on the tunnel work in September and more details will then be released.

I wonder when the very first reports of the Holme Tunnel problems were put before Network Rail, as once that land movements have commenced, it is not very likely that the surrounding land will stabilise. It will be interesting to see exactly what will be the outcome of the meetings to be held next month on this matter.

 

[Durham Ox]

I wonder when the very first reports of the Holme Tunnel problems were put before Network Rail, as once that land movements have commenced, it is not very likely that the surrounding land will stabilise. It will be interesting to see exactly what will be the outcome of the meetings to be held next month on this matter.

Movement in Holme Tunnel is a longstanding issue. I can remember supports being installed there back in BR days c.1989.
In these situations all you can do is monitor the structures until the surrounding topography stabilises itself although how long that will take is anybodys guess.

 

[Whistler40145]

Presuming that's why it's always a slow journey from Burnley to Halifax?

 

[Lampshade]

Presuming that's why it's always a slow journey from Burnley to Halifax?

The line hasn't been upgraded since the mid 80s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There have been a couple of local area campaigns runnng for quite some time now with regard to the possibility of an intermediate station on the Copy Pit line between Burnley Manchester Road and Hebden Bridge.

Has anyone any news as to how these have been received in the premises of those able to make a decision on this matter.....and the current state of play.

 

[jon91]

Presuming that's why it's always a slow journey from Burnley to Halifax?

I think it does alright considering the curvature of the route also bearing in mind that any further upgrades in speed on the section you mention would require a hell of a lot of work.

 

[L&Y Robert]

What's happening? Anybody local who can tell us? A picture or two, perhaps?

 

[Geeves]

I believe works are yet to start on Holme Tunnel which is due for strengthening, which will be an additional project alongside the construction of the curve. Some of it is already held up by steelwork inside the tunnel and there is a 20MPH restriction up to and inside the actual structure.

Still on for completion in December 2013 with trains starting to run in May 2014



See photo, quite an odd shape dont you agree!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2264675179_90f0e135a0.jpg

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Durham Ox made a posting # 344 on this thread back in August about the Holme Tunnel so it is good to see an update of matters.

Tunnel bore after the style of Salvador Dali perhaps..:roll:

 

[L&Y Robert]

Never mind the tunnel, what about THE CURVE?

 

[caliwag]

Nimbies holding it up I believe...check the next Rail.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Never mind the tunnel, what about THE CURVE?

Services to Rochdale and Manchester that will access the Todmorden Chord will need to use Holme Tunnel, so it is a valid matter that is running concurrently in terms of project planning.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Services to Rochdale and Manchester that will access the Todmorden Chord will need to use Holme Tunnel, so it is a valid matter that is running concurrently in terms of project planning.

I didn't say it wasn't a valid matter, I just want some information about THE CURVE you see. The Curve, not the tunnel. Anybody know what's happening on THE CURVE site? Anything? You can see it all quite well from the footbridge at the top of Wellington Road (the site, more or less, of Stansfield Hall Station as I recollect), but I'm stuck down here in Great Western territory and I have no spies in the vicinity.
And what nimbys is CALIWAG referring to? The works hardly affect anybody at all - OR have we got rare species living in the bushes, praps?

 

[Sapphire Blue]

I didn't say it wasn't a valid matter, I just want some information about THE CURVE you see. The Curve, not the tunnel. Anybody know what's happening on THE CURVE site? Anything? You can see it all quite well from the footbridge at the top of Wellington Road (the site, more or less, of Stansfield Hall Station as I recollect), but I'm stuck down here in Great Western territory and I have no spies in the vicinity.
And what nimbys is CALIWAG referring to? The works hardly affect anybody at all - OR have we got rare species living in the bushes, praps?

Passed on the train, from Burnley to Halifax, on Friday.
All there was to see was the curve cleared of vegetation and one bag (the big 1 meter square bags) of balast type material at the north end of the curve.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I believe works are yet to start on Holme Tunnel which is due for strengthening, which will be an additional project alongside the construction of the curve. Some of it is already held up by steelwork inside the tunnel and there is a 20MPH restriction up to and inside the actual structure.

Still on for completion in December 2013 with trains starting to run in May 2014



See photo, quite an odd shape dont you agree!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2264675179_90f0e135a0.jpg

So does this strengthening mean that the speed restriction will be lifted?

 

[L&Y Robert]

Services to Rochdale and Manchester that will access the Todmorden Chord will need to use Holme Tunnel, so it is a valid matter that is running concurrently in terms of project planning.

Mulling it over for a while, it has occurred to me that if trains are allowed to pass through the tunnel now, albeit at 20mph, then what's the difference between one that's going to Halifax, and one that's going to Tod and Rochdale etc. via the curve? The curve and the tunnel are seperate engineering jobs, and not really related. It might, I acknowledge, be a matter of line possessions and wot-not, even shared plant and equipment, BUT the two jobs could be done seperately and at different times if the logistics required it. Maybe it's a PR requirement - 'we musn't have the shiny new East Lancs - Manchester service slowed down by a creaky old tunnel' - type of thing. What do ypou think?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Mulling it over for a while, it has occurred to me that if trains are allowed to pass through the tunnel now, albeit at 20mph, then what's the difference between one that's going to Halifax, and one that's going to Tod and Rochdale etc. via the curve? The curve and the tunnel are seperate engineering jobs, and not really related. It might, I acknowledge, be a matter of line possessions and wot-not, even shared plant and equipment, BUT the two jobs could be done seperately and at different times if the logistics required it. Maybe it's a PR requirement - 'we musn't have the shiny new East Lancs - Manchester service slowed down by a creaky old tunnel' - type of thing. What do you think?

My feeling is the condition of the tunnel will be a ruling factor. Sorry not to be any more positive than this.

 

[mirodo]

There have been a couple of local area campaigns runnng for quite some time now with regard to the possibility of an intermediate station on the Copy Pit line between Burnley Manchester Road and Hebden Bridge.

Has anyone any news as to how these have been received in the premises of those able to make a decision on this matter.....and the current state of play.

There are no settlements with any significant population level on the route between Burnley and Hebden Bridge, so I'm not sure any intermediate station could justify the expense of being built, unless they go down the modular design route like at Mitcham Eastfields et al to keep the cost down.

I could just about see the argument for a second station at Tod, although this would obviously only serve the current Burnley - Hebden Bridge route rather than the new Tod curve route.