Todmorden Curve

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by Sox, 17 May 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,163
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    IIRC a few years ago the service through Rochdale in a typical hour was:

    • Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - All Stops - Leeds - York
    • Manchester Victoria - Moston - Mills Hill - Castleton - Rochdale - Oldham (and back to Manchester)
    • Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - All Stops - Leeds - Selby
    • Manchester Victoria - Moston - Mills Hill - Castleton - Rochdale - Oldham (and back to Manchester)

    I could be wrong - this was before the Oldham Loop was closed for conversion to Metrolink and before the Caldervale rejig that saw a new Manchester - Rochdale - Brighouse - Leeds service (which allowed one of the other Leeds services to be speeded up and saw the introduction of the Grand Tour).

    So it sounds reasonable to have the Leeds services running fast between Manchester and Rochdale with the stops at Moston etc taken by services to Burnley/ Accrington/ Blackburn. Without getting into semantics about stopping patterns, I think that Waverley125 has the right idea here.

    The potential for a half hourly service from Manchester to Burnley (via Rochdale) does weaken the impetus for any SELRAP improvements, since Burnley - Manchester is probably the one big unserved market that they could make a case to improve.
     
  2. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,152
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2011
    Location:
    The very best part of rural Cheshire East.
    Are there not plans for a similar service to this to have Stalybridge as its terminal station, in lieu of the Liverpool area service that currently uses Ashton under Lyne and Stalybridge ?

    I am intrigued by your Stake Hill station proposal, which would serve a now greatly expanded industrial estate, but its proximity to Mills Hill station could raise a question of the viability of Mills Hill station.

    Newton Heath station re-opening would bring back a heavy rail station to the area that was once served by Dean Lane on the Oldham Loop Line on the other side of Newton Heath TMD and would serve the large private housing development (The Fairway) that was constructed on the former Failsworth Golf Course. I am old enough to have used the Middleton to Manchester service in the late 1950's until the demise of Middleton station in 1964, when the service covered:-
    Middleton
    Middleton Junction
    Moston
    Newton Heath
    Miles Platting
    Manchester Victoria.
     
  3. bluenoxid

    bluenoxid Established Member

    Messages:
    1,781
    Joined:
    9 Feb 2008
    Stakehill Industrial Estate - wouldn't be my first choice for a station. A lot of units up for lease there and its dead. If they flattened parts of it and put a car park in, well, it's possible that it might make it. The only problem is that the M62 traffic can back up past J20 on the M62 and on really bad days the A627(M) is not nice. However, I like the thinking and it is possible that it could be a little park and ride gem if served appropriately.
     
  4. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,152
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2011
    Location:
    The very best part of rural Cheshire East.
    Outside the area of the Stakehill Industrial Estate is the area of Slattocks with only a very small number of possible commuters to use a railway station in that area. Your comment about a park and ride station would be somewhat at odds with the fact that there is a link road from that estate to the A627M, which many of the workers on that estate use to travel to and from work.

    Castleton station covers a very much larger and wider catchment area of possible commuting journeys.
     
  5. Waverley125

    Waverley125 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,001
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2008
    Location:
    Leeds, West Yorkshire
    I'd presumed Stake Hill as a Park & Ride site from northeast Manchester yes, not as a station to serve a residential area.

    As for the current proposal to go through to Stalybridge, yeah there is. I think Manchester is a prime candidate for a crossrail-type system.

    In the west destination would be Wigan Wallgate (both via Atherton & via Bolton) in the east, Rochdale & Stalybridge via Ashton under Lyme

    I'd also hope to run Preston-Stockport via Denton and Picadilly-Airport via Ardwick, Eastlands, Miles Platting, Victoria, Oxford Road & Piccadilly

    Picadilly would continue to handle the electric stoppers in south Manchester (Buxton, Crewe, Stoke, Glossop, Hadfield) and trains beyond the northern boundaries would run 'fast' in the area covered by the stoppers, then fast.

    i.e. Manchester Victoria-Southport calling Wigan Wallgate & all stops, Victoria-Blackpool calling Bolton, Lostock & all stops

    Piccadilly-Huddersfield calling Guide Bridge, Stalybridge & all stations to Huddersfield.
     
  6. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,152
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2011
    Location:
    The very best part of rural Cheshire East.
    I can see your logic with Preston - Stockport, via Denton.

    What I find hard to understand is:-
    Piccadilly - Airport via Ardwick, Eastlands, Miles Platting, Victoria, Oxford Road and Piccadilly. It does seem to be a rather long route compared with the existing Piccadilly - Airport route via the Styal line.

    When the Ordsall Chord is completed, an Airport - Piccadilly - Oxford Road - Victoria service will be part of the North Transpennine route.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I understand that the plans in the pipeline for the Huddersfield service rule out the existing all-stations service. This has been discussed on at least a couple of threads in the last few months.
     
  7. PR1Berske

    PR1Berske Established Member

    Messages:
    1,696
    Joined:
    27 Jul 2010
    Location:
    Preston
    Airport-Pic-Oxford Road-Victoria would be a great little service - couldn't TPE (or whomever it might be) split a service at Pic or OR to run off somewhere else (be it Lancashire via Bolton, or Wigan, or Liverpool) ? Market it as a "Leave the Airport for connections via Victoria for Calderdale/Yorkshire, stay on the train from here to get to Blackpool" ?
     
  8. Waverley125

    Waverley125 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,001
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2008
    Location:
    Leeds, West Yorkshire
    The Piccadilly-Victoria-Piccadilly-Airport service I saw as the most logical running of what I'd term the 'Manchester circle', which would involve opening up Ardwick-Miles Platting as well as the Ordsal Chord. This would allow you to run right round Manchester CC, as well as connecting in the Airport & all key locations, while reducing the number of conflicting movements. FWIW I'd consider extending these to Wilmslow (reversing at Airport), and keeping through services from elsewhere to the west. With the layout at Piccadilly, making 13 & 14 'Airport only' platforms would seem to make sense, so potentially Liverpool LS-Manchester Airport stoppers?

    So for instance, a train leaves P1 at Piccadilly, stays on the northernmost approach lines, and branches off at Ardwick. Would then cross the Victoria bays, before staying on the lines closest to the CC as it rounded the Ordsall Chord, again, nearest to CC at Oxford Road, before arriving back at Piccadilly on the far side from where it started, and the right side to get out to the Airport without crossing the station throat.

    The alternative would be to run trains currently terminating at Victoria round the 'Eastlands Chord' into Piccadilly, i.e. the Southport and Blackpool stoppers, which could also be good.

    as for the Huddersfield services, serious upgrades are needed on this line, and my personal preference is to reinstate 4 lines from Dewsbury-Diggle and west of Guide Bridge, which would allow overtaking and reduce conflicting movements. I think the Piccadilly stoppers would work if you ran them also as a 'semi fast' to Stalybridge, replacing the current TPE service into Piccadilly. So first stop Guide Bridge, second stop Stalybridge, then all stations. Saves on units, reduces congestion on Stalybridge-Victoria (very busy under Northern Hub plans with TPE services added), all round win.
     
  9. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,152
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2011
    Location:
    The very best part of rural Cheshire East.
    I have consulted all my historical maps of that area of Manchester and at present, the only way to make a Manchester Piccadilly (from your stated use of platform 1) - Ardwick -Miles Platting journey, is to carry on past Ardwick towards Ashburys on the lines at the rear of station, then to reverse to access the line which passes through both the Phillips Park junctions into Miles Platting.

    Perhaps you would be so kind as to state the route that you had in mind to enable your service to run in the section from Ardwick to Miles Platting, noting that the Siemens Transpennine Express now occupies much of the former land in that area and is projected to be converted to allow the future electric units to be serviced.

    When you make a journey from Manchester Piccadilly to Ardwick at the present time, just before you arrive at Ardwick Station, you will see on the left hand side of the line, the viaduct that in the dim and distant realms of railway history used to provide a through-running route to the area near to Miles Platting. However, the bridge over Blind Lane and Pittbrook Street was removed many years ago and the viaduct remainder has the appearance of a gently curving elevated urban forest. I would be interested if someone could tell this forum when Network Rail or their predecessors last made a structural assessment with regard to the present stage of degradations that has occurred. I think that the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway were involved in the construction of the viaduct.
     
  10. Waverley125

    Waverley125 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,001
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2008
    Location:
    Leeds, West Yorkshire
    Paul-it is indeed that viaduct I was considering, with the opening of 2 new platforms on it as part of an improved Ardwick station complex.
     
  11. PR1Berske

    PR1Berske Established Member

    Messages:
    1,696
    Joined:
    27 Jul 2010
    Location:
    Preston
    I would love that to happen but it's a bit "ideal world" given the problems detailed above :(

    Another victim to the attitude against railways in times gone by.
     
  12. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

    Messages:
    2,995
    Joined:
    22 Apr 2010
    Miles Platting lost most of its remaining traffic after local housing on & near Oldham Rd. was demolished, and local industry declined. Whilst I was sad to see it closed, high frequency bus services to the city centre cater adequately for what residual traffic still exists.

    Middleton suffered from neglect - a sparse service and several minutes walk from the town centre meant that the rail service found it difficult to compete with slower, but very frequent buses to Manchester, and direct buses to both Oldham & Rochdale.
     
  13. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,152
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2011
    Location:
    The very best part of rural Cheshire East.
    I suppose that you could make a direct comparison between Miles Platting station and Ardwick station, in that, as you quite rightly say, much of the local population has moved elsewhere and both of these railway stations are very close to their main railway stations. Both areas still have an amount of light industry, but it is noticeable that Ardwick railway station has still remained open. However, bus provision in both areas is more than adequate. It is noticeable that the Manchester Metrolink will not serve the Miles Platting area, as the route outwards from Manchester takes the route of the former avoiding heavy rail line and this will serve the Monsall area instead.

    Middleton station, which I used until its demise in 1964, would now be more useful, noting the new town centre developments that are very near to the former station site, which was used by an office block and associated warehouse the last time that I had cause to visit Middleton about 10 years ago, but past acquaintances do still contact me with information from time to time. I should imagine that a bus ride from Middleton into Manchester, either via Rochdale Road or via Cheetham Hill, would still take quite some time, especially in the peak travel periods.
     
  14. Joseph_Locke

    Joseph_Locke Established Member

    Messages:
    1,355
    Joined:
    14 Apr 2012
    Location:
    Within earshot of trains passing the one and half

    Betwixt staton and viaduct.

    Also, to add some real news, the project (detailed and construction) is out to tender as we speak.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---

    Since it isn't an operational asset it isn't NR's to inspect or maintain. I'm not even sure it's still in any kind of Railway ownership at all.

    It's quite possibly being held together by the Silver Birches ...

    It was an L&Y project, and re-opening it to allow Rochdales to access Piccadilly (via Brewery, Philips Park West, Philips Park South and a reinstated Ancoats Junction) was considered in about 2000. However, any thought of this is now dead due to later "through train" ideas, the Hub and the HS2 interim terminus.
     
  15. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

    Messages:
    2,484
    Joined:
    12 Apr 2012
    Does anyone know if any thought has been given to rolling stock for services using the Todmorden curve? The talk seems to be of a completion date for the line at the end of next year, but that's not going to help much unless there's some trains to run the new service, and since I gather from other threads that Northern has no spare stock, something presumably needs to be done...?
     
  16. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,152
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2011
    Location:
    The very best part of rural Cheshire East.
    I sincerely hope that the matter of rolling stock provision for this proposed new rail service was looked into when this project (which is only part of the total project that includes the regeneration of The Weavers Triangle" in Burnley) was in the examination and scrutiny stage, when the Governmental body responsible for the released funding were making the in-depth analysis of all aspects of the successful grant-monies bid.
     
  17. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

    Messages:
    2,995
    Joined:
    22 Apr 2010
    One of my other interests is buses, and the service 17 bus via Rochdale Road takes around 20 minutes (off-peak), but some morning peak workings towards Manchester are allowed around 30 to 40 minutes. Apart from money, and loss of some small bridges, there would be few problems in reinstating the Middleton branch if anyone had the will to do so, although it might be better used as part of a tramway extended to the town centre, and maybe even to the Langley estate beyond the town centre. With a new bridge over the line at Middleton Junction, it would even be feasible to extend a tramway up Middleton incline to join Metrolink at Oldham Werneth. (Of course, I don't expect this to happen...)
     
  18. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,152
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2011
    Location:
    The very best part of rural Cheshire East.
    Whatever direction you go from Middleton to the Langley estate, you will be faced with a very steep incline over a considerable period of line running.

    Not exactly "rack and pinion" in its requirements, but something to stretch one's imagination trying to come up with a solution to that particular conundrum.
     
  19. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

    Messages:
    2,995
    Joined:
    22 Apr 2010
    Middleton to Langley is no steeper than parts of the Sheffield tramway.
     
  20. lancastrian

    lancastrian Member

    Messages:
    450
    Joined:
    2 Jan 2010
    Location:
    Bolton, Lancashire
    I have been following this discussion with great interest. The link from Philips Park Junction to Ardwick was opened by the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway as a single track goods line on 20th November 1848, it was opened to regular passenger traffic in 1852. The line was doubled in August 1865. Sadly I don't know when the Ardwick end of line was closed to both Passenger & Goods traffic. Although I do know that by 1970 the closed section was no longer in any use.

    However the majority of the line is actually still open from both Philips Park No 1 Junction & Baguley Fold Junction to Midland Junction, the line continues on the old Midland Railway Ardwick Branch until it joins the old Great Central line at Ashburys. The rest of the line is closed completely.

    From Midland Juntion, alongside Viaduct Street to Ashton Old Road, both the viaduct and the bridge over Ashton Old Road have been demolished. Beyond Aston Old Road about a fifth of the distance toward Ardwick Juntion a section of viaduct has been leveled to link to large factory car parks. The viaduct continues until it reaches Dainton Street, where the bridge over this street and the link to the line into Piccadilly has been demolished as well.

    Paul is quite right the all of the top serfice of the viaduct is cover in trees and bushes, more than likely their roots have been steadily destroying the ingegrity of the viaduct. Some of the arches are still in use for small business.

    I feel that the chance of this section of line being reopened are practically NIL. Although the rebuilding the missing bridges and re-ordering the viaduct are possible, the only place any services could go are the old MSLR/GCR platforms at Piccadilly. To do otherwise would cause much more disruption in services crossing the approaches to Piccadilly, this why the Ordsall Curve is being built to reduce this flat crossing of the all of the approach lines to Piccadilly. Much more practical would be upgrading the goods line from Philips Park no.1 Junction & Ashburys to send some services to Victoria Station.
     
    Last edited: 14 May 2012
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page