Todmorden Curve

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are no settlements with any significant population level on the route between Burnley and Hebden Bridge, so I'm not sure any intermediate station could justify the expense of being built, unless they go down the modular design route like at Mitcham Eastfields et al to keep the cost down.

I suppose that the 592 bus service from Burnley to Halifax, via Todmorden, is these days deemed sufficient to meet the public transport needs of the communities along the line of the Copy Pit route.

 

[L&Y Robert]

I could just about see the argument for a second station at Tod, although this would obviously only serve the current Burnley - Hebden Bridge route rather than the new Tod curve route.

There used to be one - Stansfield Hall Station. It was immediately uphill of the level crossing connecting Wellington Road with Stansfield Hall Road (now a footbridge) but before the facing crossover. Did I say "Level"? Yes, across the tracks, but the approach from town was steep, and the onward link to Stansfield Hall Road was as well, now a footpath. The station had short wooden platforms. The layout was overseen by Stansfield Hall signal box immediately downhill of the level crossing, the box controlled the double track junction to the West Curve, and the access to the engine sidings for the Copy Pit bankers (8Fs). There was a nice signal gantry as well, junction arms, home and distant on both.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There used to be one - Stansfield Hall Station. It was immediately uphill of the level crossing connecting Wellington Road with Stansfield Hall Road (now a footbridge) but before the facing crossover.

It is good that some of us of the more advanced in years were aware of this particular station and thank you for the information that you have given.

As the most southerly of the railway stations on the Copy Pit line, it did have railway connections to both the westward-facing and the eastward-facing lines. The final train ran during the period of the Second World War on 31st July 1944, but the official closing date for this station was not until 17th August 1949...when I was no more than four years old.

 

[Deerfold]

I suppose that the 592 bus service from Burnley to Halifax, via Todmorden, is these days deemed sufficient to meet the public transport needs of the communities along the line of the Copy Pit route.

There's the hourly 592.

And the 589 Rochdale - Todmorden - Burnley (hourly not eve/Sun).

And the 1 Todmorden - Burnley - Stoops Estate (half hourly, some longer gaps, not eve/Sun).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's the hourly 592.

And the 589 Rochdale - Todmorden - Burnley (hourly not eve/Sun).

And the 1 Todmorden - Burnley - Stoops Estate (half hourly, some longer gaps, not eve/Sun).

I apologise for not making mention the 589 service when I mentioned the 592 service in my posting, being the one that will give access to the Copy Pit line communities to Rochdale.

I am intrigued as to the "Starship" service 1 run by Transdev, being in direct competition with the two First routes 589 and 592. Has this always been mainly a Stoops Estate to Burnley service, or has it always had a route continuation onwards from Burnley to Todmorden ?

 

[Deerfold]

I apologise for not making mention the 589 service when I mentioned the 592 service in my posting, being the one that will give access to the Copy Pit line communities to Rochdale.

I am intrigued as to the "Starship" service 1 run by Transdev, being in direct competition with the two First routes 589 and 592. Has this always been mainly a Stoops Estate to Burnley service, or has it always had a route continuation onwards from Burnley to Todmorden ?

This was a Stoops-Estate-Burnley service for many years (though the numbers changed a few times) and was extended to Todmorden a couple of years ago. And fiddled with every couple of months.

I think it uses a bus which is needed around schooltimes which explains the gaps in service. It's also only Monday - Friday - I would have thought it might be quite popular on Saturdays.

There is also a bit of minor competition between Todmorden and Portsmouth ( http://www.wymetro.com/NR/rdonlyres/4F59B870-FAAF-4654-A93C-CA4EB3387DEB/0/590591T_bustimetable.pdf ).

Oddly there's been competition on this unlikely route before with a competing Rochdale - Portsmouth service and First running extra short 589s.

The 1 is a bit of an oddity - the only other competition I know of from Burnley and Pendle is on the Burnley - Skipton route where they put on far more buses than the incumbent (Pennine's 215) and then won the Sunday contract.

Between Burnley and Keighley they work in harmony with sister company Keighley and District with both companies accepting the other's passes on sections of their routes (K&D accept the B&P silver pass on their 66/66A as well as on common sections of other routes with the B&P 25 so you can do a triangle Burnley - Keighley - Skipton - Burnley on one ticket).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I see that another thread is reporting a failure of a retaining wall in the Cornholme area which has affected the Burnley to West Yorkshire rail services and would have affected rail services using the Todmorden Chord, had they been running. It appears that this has occurred previously in exactly the same situation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has anyone any recent news on the infrastructural works connected with the Todmorden Chord to impart ?

 

[Sox]

Has anyone any recent news on the infrastructural works connected with the Todmorden Chord to impart ?

Not an update as such but I notice that one of the intermediate resolutions of Bing maps shows a trace has been cut and further foliage clearance:

http://binged.it/Vq5YFv

 

[L&Y Robert]

Has anyone any recent news on the infrastructural works connected with the Todmorden Chord to impart ?

Same query as Paul, now 2 months later. So has anyone?
AND:
Anyone got the name of old signal box at the OTHER end - i.e. the Rochdale end - of the curve? A picture, maybe? (It would have been impossible to take without trespassing unless from a moving train). It was on the north side of the line, between the end of the viaduct and the west junction itself, sported a nice big junction signal, home and distant on both, with a short arm between the two for access to the goods loop (main). There was a short siding somewhere there as well on the north side, serving some coal-drops - I think it must have come off the curve itself.

AND FINALLY anyone know the name of the next signal box beyond the station (towards Rochdale?) - and a picture perhaps? It too was on the north side of the line, fitted tightly between the carriage sidings neck and Rose Bank Road. Today there is one of those grey steel cabinets on the very spot. It was a favourite place of mine when a boy, you could see everything without leaving the public road, and hear the bell-codes and sometimes hear the signal-man on the phone.

 

[Darren R]

The five month closure of Copy Pit between November of this year and April of next for the Holme Tunnel re-profiling and plumbing-in of the Todmorden Curve seems to tie in nicely with Network Rail's planned re-opening for the May 2014 timetable change - which means that we are only twelve months away from trains starting to run. So - are we any nearer knowing any details of the service pattern?

Does anyone know where the trains are going to run to? The current infrastructure doesn't appear to allow trains from Todmorden to terminate at Burnley Manchester Rd or Rose Grove (unless I've missed something), which means they would have to run through to Blackburn instead. This in itself would lead to further complications (fares, ticket routeing, pathing etc.)

Also, if my timescale is correct, that only allows a month or so for route learning. Is this feasable? My understanding (possibly erroneous) is that Blackpool crews sign Blackburn - Gannow Jn along with Copy Pit, whereas Victoria crews don't, but do sign Vic - Todmorden. So is it going to end up as a Newton Heath or Blackpool North job? Either way a month or so for route learning doesn't seem much.

But the main problem appears to be timetabling the new services. There was talk of the current (Wigan Wallgate - ) Man Vic - Rochdale terminators being extended. Having spent a while examining the WTT today, this just doesn't work as it would be just ahead of the Blackpool North - York service most of the way. Nor does it work in the opposite direction heading back towards Todmorden. In fact having spent some time with the WTT and a spreadsheet (yes, I know, but it's a Bank Hol and what else is there to do?) I can't see any way of pathing the new services all the way from Man Vic - Todmorden - Blackburn in both directions without retiming the Blackpool North - York services both ways by quite some considerable margin. This of course has knock-on effects, and the entire Calder Valley TT would need major changes.

I believe there is a recast of the 2014 timetable in the North West - how major is this going to be?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I believe there is a recast of the 2014 timetable in the North West - how major is this going to be?

As I understand it, there will be some (after all, Chat Moss goes electric) but not as dramatic as 2016's and 2018's upheaval, as parts of the Northern Hub get turned on.

 

[The Planner]

May 14 hasn't even been started, Dec 13 is only offered back to the TOCs on June 6th.

 

[edwin_m]

If I recall correctly it is physically possible to reverse at Rose Grove but would require signalling changes for a passenger-carrying train to do this (as a minimum, position light replaced by a main aspect). The train could terminate at Manchester Road and run empty to/from Rose Grove.

However there is the problem of where to keep the train during the turnaround time. The Colne-Blackpools pass near Rose Grove so there is one time every hour when neither platform is available. You'd probably need to provide a bay platform there for a reliable terminating service. A similar issue might arise if it terminated at Accrington where there is only a pair of crossovers (one on a ground frame).

Running to Blackburn provides a through Accrington-Manchester service for the first time in decades, and the Blackburn-Manchester timing is not too much slower than via Bolton so it could be helpful for this journey too. It may also help with crewing as there is the opportunity to interwork with the Clitheroe service.

 

[Darren R]

May 14 hasn't even been started, Dec 13 is only offered back to the TOCs on June 6th.

I am rather surprised at that - I thought that planning for major timetable recasts started a couple of years in advance (at least!)

If I recall correctly it is physically possible to reverse at Rose Grove but would require signalling changes for a passenger-carrying train to do this (as a minimum, position light replaced by a main aspect). The train could terminate at Manchester Road and run empty to/from Rose Grove.

However there is the problem of where to keep the train during the turnaround time. The Colne-Blackpools pass near Rose Grove so there is one time every hour when neither platform is available. You'd probably need to provide a bay platform there for a reliable terminating service. A similar issue might arise if it terminated at Accrington where there is only a pair of crossovers (one on a ground frame).

Running to Blackburn provides a through Accrington-Manchester service for the first time in decades, and the Blackburn-Manchester timing is not too much slower than via Bolton so it could be helpful for this journey too. It may also help with crewing as there is the opportunity to interwork with the Clitheroe service.

The trackwork theoretically allows for shunt movements at Rose Grove, but as you say, the signalling would need some changes - as it will at the Todmorden end too. The Blackpool - Colnes pass each other in Rose Grove station, so a service could terminate at Rose Grove and remain in either platform for around 30 - 35 minutes before it would have to be clear for the York - Blackpool services. (Didn't look at freight though!) Accrington would be out of the question for terminating services regularly though as the crossover is operated from an emergency ground frame alongside.

By my calculations, Blackburn - Todmorden - Man Vic would take 85 minutes if it takes over the all-stations calls en route, and 76 minutes by running non-stop from Rochdale - Vic. Not really attractive as an extra service from Blackburn, but of course that's not the intention. Accrington - Vic would take between 66 and 74 minutes depending on calling pattern; a big improvement on the current 90 minutes plus!

 

[lancastrian]

If I recall correctly it is physically possible to reverse at Rose Grove but would require signalling changes for a passenger-carrying train to do this (as a minimum, position light replaced by a main aspect). The train could terminate at Manchester Road and run empty to/from Rose Grove.

However there is the problem of where to keep the train during the turnaround time. The Colne-Blackpools pass near Rose Grove so there is one time every hour when neither platform is available. You'd probably need to provide a bay platform there for a reliable terminating service. A similar issue might arise if it terminated at Accrington where there is only a pair of crossovers (one on a ground frame).

Running to Blackburn provides a through Accrington-Manchester service for the first time in decades, and the Blackburn-Manchester timing is not too much slower than via Bolton so it could be helpful for this journey too. It may also help with crewing as there is the opportunity to interwork with the Clitheroe service.

My suggestion would be to continue the service through to Rose Grove. My reasoning for that is this. At one time Rose Grove had two bay platforms, one at each end, it would not be to hard to clear out all the rubbish from the former Bay platform at the Colne end of the station and use that refurbished platform to terminate the Manchester to Burnley Services.

Plus it would give the opportunity for interchange with the Colne line services as well, allowing for the communities of Brierfield, Nelson & Colne to have a decent onward connection to Manchester.

Looking at the East End former bay platform. Yes it needs clearing all the weeds off, yes it might need some refurbishment. But there is space for the platform to have its track put back and it looks long enough for at least a 4 car train. So it should really be looked at.

Just my personal view.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am somewhat confused by the recent postings that seem to feel the Copy Pit services via the Todmorden Chord only envisaging a truncated route to Burnley Manchester Road or to Rose Grove. I had been led to believe that Blackburn would have been the northern terminus, serving the station at Accrington en route.

Can someone say if their has been any official pronouncements made to suggest the truncated route, that I have not been aware of noticing.

 

[edwin_m]

Options to terminate at Manchester Road, Rose Grove or Accrington have been investigated at various times and I believe they have now settled on going through to Blackburn.

 

[Geeves]

I mentioned this a while ago, but there was talk of a circular tour Vic - Todd - Blackburn - Bolton - Vic, and the Clitheroe section becoming a standalone shuttle from Blackburn run by Blackpool crews

How feasible this is I dont know.

 

[natureboy]

I am rather surprised at that - I thought that planning for major timetable recasts started a couple of years in advance (at least!)



The trackwork theoretically allows for shunt movements at Rose Grove, but as you say, the signalling would need some changes - as it will at the Todmorden end too. The Blackpool - Colnes pass each other in Rose Grove station, so a service could terminate at Rose Grove and remain in either platform for around 30 - 35 minutes before it would have to be clear for the York - Blackpool services. (Didn't look at freight though!) Accrington would be out of the question for terminating services regularly though as the crossover is operated from an emergency ground frame alongside.

By my calculations, Blackburn - Todmorden - Man Vic would take 85 minutes if it takes over the all-stations calls en route, and 76 minutes by running non-stop from Rochdale - Vic. Not really attractive as an extra service from Blackburn, but of course that's not the intention. Accrington - Vic would take between 66 and 74 minutes depending on calling pattern; a big improvement on the current 90 minutes plus!

The best service pattern in my mind is a circular Man Vic - Bolton - Blackburn - Accrington - Burnley - Todmorden - Rochdale - Man Vic running hourly in each direction. You'd potentially have three tph between Blackburn and Manchester; two via Bolton (one being the Clitheroe service) and one via Todmorden. Additional peak hour journeys could be added from Blackburn, in the morning peak, and Manchester Victoria in the evening peak, calling at ALL stations between Blackburn and Burnley Manchester Road then running either non-stop to/from Manchester Victoria or calling at just Todmorden and/or Rochdale.

With regards to track and signalling, I strongly suspect Todmorden's platform 2 will become bi-directional with the crossover being just south of the station. Now how good would this be?

 

[edwin_m]

I think extra all-day trains between Bolton and Blackburn would need something doing about the single lines.

 

[The Planner]

With regards to track and signalling, I strongly suspect Todmorden's platform 2 will become bi-directional with the crossover being just south of the station. Now how good would this be?

Crossover is on the new curve side of the station and 1 is bi-directional.

 

[Darren R]

I am somewhat confused by the recent postings that seem to feel the Copy Pit services via the Todmorden Chord only envisaging a truncated route to Burnley Manchester Road or to Rose Grove. I had been led to believe that Blackburn would have been the northern terminus, serving the station at Accrington en route.

Can someone say if their has been any official pronouncements made to suggest the truncated route, that I have not been aware of noticing.

The reason why I resurrected the thread was that I wondered whether anything official was known yet, since it is now only a year away. All the talk about trains running through to Blackburn and circular services back to Man Vic via Bolton mostly seemed to originate from various ill-informed councils and MPs indulging in specualtion at the time the re-opening was officially confirmed. It was only looking properly at the layout and signalling at Rose Grove that made me think pushing through to Blackburn instead was far more likely.

In regard the bay platform reinstatement at Rose Grove, on the current timings of the 4tph passing through, it just isn't necessary - a train terminating at either of the through platforms there can remain in the platform for about half an hour without it being an issue.

The best service pattern in my mind is a circular Man Vic - Bolton - Blackburn - Accrington - Burnley - Todmorden - Rochdale - Man Vic running hourly in each direction. You'd potentially have three tph between Blackburn and Manchester; two via Bolton (one being the Clitheroe service) and one via Todmorden. Additional peak hour journeys could be added from Blackburn, in the morning peak, and Manchester Victoria in the evening peak, calling at ALL stations between Blackburn and Burnley Manchester Road then running either non-stop to/from Manchester Victoria or calling at just Todmorden and/or Rochdale.

Operationally though this would rapidly denegerate into utter chaos - quite possibly even on a good day! And in any case the timings don't work. Assuming an all-stations service such a journey would take around two and a quarter hours Blackburn to Blackburn - meaning a unit hanging around for 3/4 of an hour.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its a year old now, but the only solid info I had on it was they were considering extending the Wigan-Rochdale service to form the Blackburn service as it would be fairly cheap to implement requiring less additional rolling stock than a new service. End-End Blackburn times wouldnt be competitive with going via Preston but would probably make decent time for Burnley journeys and the main point is to feed into Manchester and not terminate at Victoria.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think that it should be remembered that the fund monies that made this project available were part of a project that was actively pursued by the officials of the council in Burnley and other parts of the same funding were stipulated to be for the required restoration works at The Weavers Triangle in Burnley.

 

[Geeves]

A copy of my post from SSC

To facilitate the introduction of the direct Manchester to Burnley train there will be a 20 week closure of the line connecting Todd and Burnley. The mainline from Manchester to Bradford/Brighouse and Leeds will be open during the week but closed on Sundays during the same period.

Trackworks will also be carried out to enable trains to finally run direct to Burnley after a break of about 40 odd years!

Some details on PG42

No direct trains Vic - Leeds - Between Sundays 27 October to 01 December 2013

No direct trains Leeds - Blackpool - Between 09 November 2013 and April 2014


http://www.wymetro.com/uploadedFile.../PublicTransportChanges_April_infoleaflet.pdf

 

[Darren R]

I think that it should be remembered that the fund monies that made this project available were part of a project that was actively pursued by the officials of the council in Burnley and other parts of the same funding were stipulated to be for the required restoration works at The Weavers Triangle in Burnley.

That is certainly my recollection - Burnley Council have been pushing for the chord and direct services to Man Vic for years, although I never did figure out where this tied-in with the Weavers' Triangle. But certainly I would expect Burnley - Manchester to be the main passenger market.

Its a year old now, but the only solid info I had on it was they were considering extending the Wigan-Rochdale service to form the Blackburn service as it would be fairly cheap to implement requiring less additional rolling stock than a new service

That was my impression all along too, the trouble is that on closer inspection this doesn't work. The Wigan services currently depart Rochdale at xx04 past each hour - extending that timing back up to Rose Grove means that it would only be five minutes ahead of the Blackpool North - York train which would probably catch up with it by the time they reached Stansfied Hall Jn.

I know at the moment it's all speculative and doesn't really matter, but it was the realisation that this was the case that made me wonder what the plans are. Re-timing either the current Rochdale - Man Vic - Wigan Wallgate or the Blackpool - York is far easier said than done! (Hence my earlier question about next year's timetable recast.)

It also occurs to me that should Blackburn become the terminus then it would be added to the fairly select list of stations that see trains for the same destination departing in opposite directions - and for the first time in its history too!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9118171.__9m_bid_submitted_for_Burnley_to_Manchester_direct_rail_link/

£9m bid submitted for Burnley to Manchester direct rail link

9:10am Saturday 2nd July 2011

By Chris Hopper »
Reporter

AN AMBITIOUS £9million bid has been lodged to finally provide a direct rail link between Burnley and Manchester.

Council bosses want cash from the Government’s regional growth fund (RGF) to reinstate the Todmorden Curve after 40 years.

The line would mean 40-minute journeys from Burnley into the heart of the city.

Bosses also plan to use almost £2million of the money to help prepare for the long-awaited £100million regeneration of the Weavers’ Triangle area.

And separately, a renovation of Manchester Road station, which would be used by Manchester-bound commuters, is also in the pipeline. The RGF proposals, lodged yesterday with the Government, have been hailed as the biggest development yet in the long-running campaign to reinstate the Todmorden Curve, a 500-metre section of track that would be brought back into use.

The plans, which could see Burnley to Manchester trains running in 2013, were also backed by MP Gordon Birtwistle.

He said: “This is a very clever bid because it links the Todmorden Curve and the Weavers’ Triangle to job creation, which is what the Government is looking for.

“I speak to companies all the time who say they would move to Burnley if there was a direct rail link to Manchester.

“I think in two years’ time we will see that finally happen.”

Burnley Council has led the bid, which also has support from Lancashire County Council, Network Rail and newly-appointed Weavers’ Triangle developer Barnfield.

Bosses have asked for £8.8million, of which £7million would be used to lay down new track where the curve is and make alterations at Todmorden railway station, including changes to signalling.

The remaining £1.8million would go on highways improvements in Trafalgar Street, in the heart of the Weavers’ Triangle, and on new lighting and landscaping nearby.

The bid predicts about 500 jobs would be created by the rail work and Weavers’ Triangle improvements, with potentially hundreds more people heading into Manchester from Burnley for better-paid jobs.

Mike Cook, Burnley Council’s regeneration director, said: “This is a proper bid. It is certainly the biggest development there has been as far as the Todmorden Curve goes.”

Mr Cook would not be drawn on the odds of Burnley’s bid securing almost £9million of the £950million the Government has made available in the second round of RGF bidding.

However, a senior source said the town hall was ‘optimistic’ of success.

Separately, the council also plans an overhaul of Manchester Road station before 2013, with a new ticket office, platform shelters and increased car parking.

Network Rail said it was ‘advising’ Burnley and Lancashire County councils on the Todmorden Curve and that it was a ‘priority’ scheme.

Spokesman Keith Lumley said it was hoped the Burnley to Manchester route would be on the timetables by December 2013, with engineering work taking place the previous summer.

He said: “It seems to be getting there. If the council secures the funding from the Government then the Todmorden Curve is a goer.”

A Lancashire County Council spokesman said the Todmorden Curve remained its ‘top priority’ rail scheme and Northern Rail said it was fully supportive of the scheme.

Barnfield said were unavailable for comment yesterday ((FRI)).

A spokeswoman in the Government’s business department said RGF bidders would probably find out in October if their application for cash had been approved.

Asked about the Burnley scheme’s chances of success, she said: “There’s a larger amount of money available in this round than last time.”

Barnfield is expected to begin work on the Weavers’ Triangle later this year with a ‘mixed-use’ development planned.

I have reposted this press item that was posted upon this particular thread very many months ago as both the project works in the Burnley town area (Weavers Triangle, etc) and the Todmorden Chord railway reinstatement are clearly shown to be part and parcel of the submitted bid, which was successful, in response to the query that was raised.

 

[WatcherZero]

Dont worry, there will have to be several recasts in the North West over the next few years as electrification is progressivley opened up and new stock/services assigned to routes.

 

[mwmbwls]

Dont worry, there will have to be several recasts in the North West over the next few years as electrification is progressivley opened up and new stock/services assigned to routes.

Indeed the local business community has hopes of a direct link to the airport and over on SSC, a keen eyed reader has spotted this
http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/80219/new-train-service
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=342401&page=267