Todmorden Curve

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And probably written by the same types as some posters earlier in this thread, judging by the "why does it cost £8M" and "could all be relaid in one weekend possession" remarks I've seen here.

Do not lose all hope. There are still cynical realists abiding on this thread who live in the real world....

 

[Sox]

Do not lose all hope. There are still cynical realists abiding on this thread who live in the real world....

Having said that Paul, there may well be a lot of "behind the scenes" work going on, e.g. laying of signalling cables, diagram rearrangements, pre-commissioning works, etc.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Having said that Paul, there may well be a lot of "behind the scenes" work going on, e.g. laying of signalling cables, diagram rearrangements, pre-commissioning works, etc.

I was actually supporting the view expressed by Signal Head and of course, the 2014 opening date will allow for all such necessary works that you state in your posting to take place and I suppose the Holme tunnel works being scheduled in the same period will be ideal.

 

[L&Y Robert]

http://http://www.hall-royd-junction.co.uk/Hall_Royd_Prototype/Stansfield_Hall_Junction_prototype.html

Are you sure? I was under the impression the current facing crossover came in with Preston PSB.

This photo shows a trailing crossover, spanning beneath the footbridge, and no sign of a facing one.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/140709664/


The facing crossover there now is further away from the junction, which would fit with it having been laid in whilst the original trailing one was in use, so it could be connected up to the new system ready for commissioning.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/isaacwilson/5014576085/

Which doesn't answer the question as to how the bankers got back to the siding. Is it possible that the diamond you mention was actually a single slip? This could have been arranged with either facing access to the siding, or forming a trailing crossover between the curve lines as well, which would require a double-shunt of course. Other than that, the trailing crosover in the photo above could be used, but again that's a double-shunt. There is a double dolly on the end of that one though, which suggests a bang road move onto the curve was available from there.

Korks! Your photo kills the idea that the returning engines simply crossed over and rolled into their siding in one smooth operation. I have always assumed it was so, but now I have to re-interpret my informant (a signalman on the line) that "They freewheel back down to Tod, cross over, and roll into the engine sidings". It must have been a double shunt, then, probably on the crossover under the footbridge and not the one on the curve which is - was - perilously close to the main line junction. I have done a bit of research and find pictures confirming the plain diamond crossing arrangement, without slip-points.
http://www.hall-royd-junction.co.uk/Hall_Royd_Prototype/Stansfield_Hall_Junction_prototype.html
http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page56.htm
http://www.flickriver.com/groups/1659989@N20/pool/interesting/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A technical point now: On such a tight curve how do they lay the track to the bend such that it doesn't "Spring back"? And another point, one set of rails (on the inside of the curve) will be a bit shorter than those on the outside. Do they trim them to fit on site? The special rails laid for the Wesh Highland over Britannia Bridge at Port Madoc were delivered pre-curved to fit the layout.

 

[455driver]

Have you ever seen a train transporting long welded rail go round a corner?

The rails bend very easily, I always find it fascinating.

 

[Ploughman]

Rails are trimmed to suit all the time on nearly every curve in the country.
Doesn't matter whether they are in CWR lengths of 200m or more or 60fts.
Longest rail on the outside and cut the inner side to square across the 4ft.

 

[Signal Head]

A technical point now: On such a tight curve how do they lay the track to the bend such that it doesn't "Spring back"? And another point, one set of rails (on the inside of the curve) will be a bit shorter than those on the outside. Do they trim them to fit on site? The special rails laid for the Wesh Highland over Britannia Bridge at Port Madoc were delivered pre-curved to fit the layout.

Some cracking photo's there Robert, would be interesting to get some current ones from the same viewpoints, and again after the reinstatement is complete, for comparison. I expect that like most places tree growth will obscure the views now, though.

Rail will bend quite readily into the curves like this, especially bull-head rail (flatbottom is a little stiffer because of the wider foot), though i imagine it may be a little trickier to 'persuade' it into the chairs than on a straight.

As you suggest, the inside or 'low' rail will be cut shorter than the outside rail, assuming the rail joints are to be kept in line. This means that, when the gauge face becomes worn (sidecut), rails on curves would have to be turned, rather than transposed as can be done on straights, or shallow curves, where the rails can be of equal length

I've seen examples where the joints are staggered, with each one around the midpoint of the opposite rail. I presume this is intended to lessen the chances of a 'thruppeny bit' effect occurring with joints opposite one another as the joints will be a bit weeker than solid rail, especially if the fishbolts loosen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was actually supporting the view expressed by Signal Head and of course, the 2014 opening date will allow for all such necessary works that you state in your posting to take place and I suppose the Holme tunnel works being scheduled in the same period will be ideal.

I hear on the grapevine that there should be visible progress on site within the next month or so.

 

[edwin_m]

I've seen examples where the joints are staggered, with each one around the midpoint of the opposite rail. I presume this is intended to lessen the chances of a 'thruppeny bit' effect occurring with joints opposite one another as the joints will be a bit weeker than solid rail, especially if the fishbolts loosen.

I think that's an American thing, never seen it in the UK (has anyone?). I believe there is a worry that with certain wagon types at certain speeds, the alternating jolts from the joints could coincide with the natural swaying frequency of the wagon, in which case it could sway more and more with a risk of derailing.

 

[Signal Head]

I think that's an American thing, never seen it in the UK (has anyone?). I believe there is a worry that with certain wagon types at certain speeds, the alternating jolts from the joints could coincide with the natural swaying frequency of the wagon, in which case it could sway more and more with a risk of derailing.

I've seen it in the UK *somewhere*, but cannot remember where now. it may not have been on the national network. I know it wasn't in the US, because I've never been there!

I can see how it could cause problems with oscillation, but if it was only used on sharp bends at low speed that's probably less of an issue, maybe?

 

[Darren R]

And probably written by the same types as some posters earlier in this thread, judging by the "why does it cost £8M" and "could all be relaid in one weekend possession" remarks I've seen here.

I've rather been working on the assumption that the actual work itself - y'know the trivial bits like track and signalling - could be done in a couple of months and at a cost of about a million. I presumed the remaining time and cost was swallowed up by negotiating the neccessary changes to the franchise agreement, who's gonna pay for the extra couple of units needed, what they are and where they're coming from, meetings, consultations, legal fees..........

Or am I getting a little bit cynical in my old age?

 

[Signal Head]

I've rather been working on the assumption that the actual work itself - y'know the trivial bits like track and signalling - could be done in a couple of months and at a cost of about a million. I presumed the remaining time and cost was swallowed up by negotiating the neccessary changes to the franchise agreement, who's gonna pay for the extra couple of units needed, what they are and where they're coming from, meetings, consultations, legal fees..........

Or am I getting a little bit cynical in my old age?

According to the last consultant's report, which I found on the net a while back, the signalling cost was expected to be around 2 million. This sounds a lot I suppose, but the simple fact is that you don't get a lot for a million these days.

BR, doing it in-house, effectively 'at cost', and in the regime in place 20 years ago would have probably managed it for somewhere around half the current total project price.

 

[Ploughman]

I think that's an American thing, never seen it in the UK (has anyone?). I believe there is a worry that with certain wagon types at certain speeds, the alternating jolts from the joints could coincide with the natural swaying frequency of the wagon, in which case it could sway more and more with a risk of derailing.

Possibly the Welsh Highland.

 

[L&Y Robert]

I've seen it in the UK *somewhere*, but cannot remember where now. it may not have been on the national network. I know it wasn't in the US, because I've never been there!

Could it have been Cogan staion? (On the Vale of Glamorgan Line).

And another thing - how are they going to get road access to the site? No chance o the North side its a steep embankment. No chance on the east side, is there? That invokes crossing of running lines. Could come off Hall Royd Road I suppose, pass behind the relay rooms or whatever they are, then over the main line, and into the triangle. Bit complicated, and risky - needing a level crossing no less!

 

[Signal Head]

Could it have been Cogan staion? (On the Vale of Glamorgan Line).

No, never been there either.

And another thing - how are they going to get road access to the site? No chance o the North side its a steep embankment. No chance on the east side, is there? That invokes crossing of running lines. Could come off Hall Royd Road I suppose, pass behind the relay rooms or whatever they are, then over the main line, and into the triangle. Bit complicated, and risky - needing a level crossing no less!

No idea, it's a tricky one as there's never been any road access. Temporary LC is a possibility I suppose. There's going to be rather a lot of ballast to come in for a start. It could have come in by rail via the old DCE sidings but someone has seen fit to plant a GSM mast in the middle of the main siding, breaching it. I'm not sure the access Ground Frame works anymore anyway.

I suppose we'll find out soon enough

 

[Geeves]

Very large gang of Orange clad men on the site of the proposed curve today. Could be something, could be nothing!!

 

[Darren R]

Reported by the BBC today that work has started on re-building Burnley Manchester Road station. Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-23708363

Work starts on £2.3m Burnley railway station revamp
Work is starting on a £2.3m railway station redevelopment, as part of plans to reinstate a faster rail route between East Lancashire and Manchester.

The new Manchester Road railway station in Burnley is being built before the re-opening of the Todmorden Curve.

The 500m section of track, which has not been used since the 1960s, connects the Burnley to Manchester lines and would cut travel time to 40 minutes.

Currently, the journey takes 80 minutes as commuters change at Hebden Bridge.

Julie Cooper, leader of Burnley Council, said she hoped the reinstatement would see an increase in passenger numbers through the town, adding that it was a "vitally important project for Burnley's future economic growth".

The station was originally built in 1886, closed in November 1961 and re-opened in September 1986.

It is hoped the new station building will open in March.

Not sure what the source of the story is though: none of the local newspapers have reported it, and Network Rail don't appear to have put out a Press Release on the subject. Can anyone confirm that work has actually started, or is Auntie Beeb getting a bit ahead of herself?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where is the 500m stretch of unused line that is referred to ? I was unaware that the existing line through Burnley Manchester Road station that is used by the Blackpool North to York services was being amended.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Where is the 500m stretch of unused line that is referred to ? I was unaware that the existing line through Burnley Manchester Road station that is used by the Blackpool North to York services was being amended.

I assumed that was referring to the curve itself, but you're right, it was hardly an example of well-written journalism!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Where is the 500m stretch of unused line that is referred to ? I was unaware that the existing line through Burnley Manchester Road station that is used by the Blackpool North to York services was being amended.

I thought it quite obviously referred to the Todmorden Curve...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought it quite obviously referred to the Todmorden Curve...

Your understanding of this matter, when the area in question of the report was about the station at Burnley Manchester Road station, is not shared by everyone, as reflected in the "poor journalism" posting made by 61653 HTAFC

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Your understanding of this matter, when the area in question of the report was about the station at Burnley Manchester Road station, is not shared by everyone, as reflected in the "poor journalism" posting made by 61653 HTAFC

Even though the report did state 'Todmorden Curve' immediately before the sentence began... Obviously everyone has different reading styles but to me it was rather clear what was being referred to.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Even though the report did state 'Todmorden Curve' immediately before the sentence began... Obviously everyone has different reading styles but to me it was rather clear what was being referred to.

If you look carefully, at the way the report was set out in print on this thread, you will see that two separate paragraphs, with line spaces in-between, are shown.

It is not a correct usage of English to split a conjoined sentence where the thread of the statement is being made, over two separate paragraphs, spaced apart.

 

[Signal Head]

Reported by the BBC today that work has started on re-building Burnley Manchester Road station. Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-23708363



Not sure what the source of the story is though: none of the local newspapers have reported it, and Network Rail don't appear to have put out a Press Release on the subject. Can anyone confirm that work has actually started, or is Auntie Beeb getting a bit ahead of herself?

I don't know about the station works, but earthmoving plant was on site, inside the triangle, a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Sox]

Hmm, conflation runs amok. One railway line, three separate issues:

1) The Todmorden curve
2) Holme tunnel
3) Manchester Road station

 

[cle]

It is obvious the track they are talking about is the new curve.

Arguing about that is just saving face at not 'getting it' - pedantic grammar technicalities or not.

That said, the article is supposedly about the rebuild of the station and gives little detail on that itself.

 

[tbtc]

the re-opening of the Todmorden Curve.

The 500m section of track, which has not been used since the 1960s, connects the Burnley to Manchester lines

...that's how I read it too.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is obvious the track they are talking about is the new curve. Arguing about that is just saving face at not 'getting it' - pedantic grammar technicalities or not.

Who has the temerity to say that " I did not get it" ? I was annoyed about the way the media release was poorly worded and whilst I normally would let such matters pass without comment, because I have taken a keen interest into the Todmorden Chord project, I decided to use what I thought would be a mixture of both sarcasm and irony to reflect my annoyance, which unfortunately seems to have gone way over the heads of certain people.

Credit me with having a command of the English language and its nuances (despite my forum username) that I have honed to a degree satisfactory to myself during the 68 years that I have been resident on this planet...

 

[Darren R]

If you look carefully, at the way the report was set out in print on this thread, you will see that two separate paragraphs, with line spaces in-between, are shown.

It is not a correct usage of English to split a conjoined sentence where the thread of the statement is being made, over two separate paragraphs, spaced apart.

Don't have a go at me - I only copied-and-pasted the article! If I'd written the piece myself it would have been altogether more informative and have considerably better grammar and syntax!

It probably isn't BBC News' finest hour (or should that be BBC News's finest hour? ), with the headline in relation to the station and the bulk of the text in relation to the Curve, and nor was it heavy on the detail - which is why I wondered about its accuracy!

 

[Signal Head]

It isn't just the BBC either, this piece from the Burnley Express is also a bit confused.

Reference to vegetation clearance in Cliviger surely relates to the Holme tunnel works. Fair enough, it does mention this work too, but 'clearing vegetation ahead of the reinstatement of the Todmorden Curve' makes it sound as though the curve works are in Cliviger.

The video on that page, not that it shows much, and also titled "Todmorden Curve", I suspect is actually the compound for the tunnel works, as I don't think there's a site that big, with vehicular access, near the curve. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[L&Y Robert]

My spy in the area reports that a huge compound has been established, complete with 2-storey portacabins, on land Anybody here know anythingbetween the road and the railway at Holme-in-Cliviger. Undoubtedly the tunnel works advance guard, don't you think? However, there's no report yet of anything happening on the "Curve site". She has a watching brief! Anybody here know anything? It is a project of huge interest to us ex Toddies.