Todmorden Curve

[L&Y Robert]

Geeves made quite an interesting recent posting about matters there on # 467.

Tankyou for the reference, Paul. And now we have a picture of some track being laid - Ah! - that's what I want to see!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Passed Tod this morning to see metal on the ground!

Thanks for sharing. That is a good sign!!!
It is going to be finished as single track isn't it?

 

[tbtc]

It is going to be finished as single track isn't it?

Yes, and then we'll have to spend another £500,000,000 on doubling it in five/ten years time...

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yes, and then we'll have to spend another £500,000,000 on doubling it in five/ten years time...

Oh come on tbtc it will only be £499,999,999. I don't understand why people exist on exaggerating.

I think in this case it might be a relatively sensible decision. Can't see more than 2tph in each direction for at least 20 years. But you are right... they struggled to get any funding though so single track better than nowt :/

 

[Signal Head]

Oh come on tbtc it will only be £499,999,999. I don't understand why people exist on exaggerating.

I think in this case it might be a relatively sensible decision. Can't see more than 2tph in each direction for at least 20 years. But you are right... they struggled to get any funding though so single track better than nowt :/

Joking aside, doubling it later is likely to cost the same again as it did to put it back in in the first place, so to do it single now with any thought of doubling it later would be a very false economy.

I've wondered in the past if Greetland - Dryclough would have been put back in as double track if it had had to be built effectively from scratch. As it was it more or less re-used the existing signalling as far as I can see. Although this needed renewal having been out of use for years, it didn't need a complex alteration, as is required at Todmorden.

 

[Darren R]

It's only a couple of hundred yards of single track though - I don't think it's ever gonna reach a point where this becomes such a serious constraint on capacity that it needs re-doubling (not until trains are every five minutes in both directions!) The curve will be very tight (gees I hope they don't use Pacers!). I am assuming the width of the original double track alignment will need to be utilised to alleviate the radius.

Good to see metal on the ground already though - I didn't expect to see anything much until the Copy Pit line closes in November.

Has there been any publicity in regards to how long the line will be closed at the Todmorden end? How long is it likely to take to 'plumb-in' the new chord, install the new crossover and make the signalling changes? And how big a job will it be at Preston PSB (which controls the route) to make the necessary changes to the equipment and panel? It is a venerable installation now - how difficult will it be?

 

[YorkshireBear]

It's only a couple of hundred yards of single track though - I don't think it's ever gonna reach a point where this becomes such a serious constraint on capacity that it needs re-doubling (not until trains are every five minutes in both directions!) The curve will be very tight (gees I hope they don't use Pacers!). I am assuming the width of the original double track alignment will need to be utilised to alleviate the radius.

Good to see metal on the ground already though - I didn't expect to see anything much until the Copy Pit line closes in November.

Has there been any publicity in regards to how long the line will be closed at the Todmorden end? How long is it likely to take to 'plumb-in' the new chord, install the new crossover and make the signalling changes? And how big a job will it be at Preston PSB (which controls the route) to make the necessary changes to the equipment and panel? It is a venerable installation now - how difficult will it be?

Is the junction on the copy pit end being installed during the tunnel closure?

 

[Welshman]

Has there been any publicity in regards to how long the line will be closed at the Todmorden end? How long is it likely to take to 'plumb-in' the new chord, install the new crossover and make the signalling changes?

The only publicity I've seen so far is this advance warning of Calder Valley line closures on Sundays 27th October - December 1st, from the WY Metro website [bottom of page 8 of booklet]:

http://www.wymetro.com/uploadedFile...eleted_each_time)/PTC_AugSept_infoleaflet.pdf

I presume that's intended to include "plumbing-in" the new chord at Todmorden. But I wouldn't have thought it would take 6 Sundays, so they could be planning other work along the Calder Valley too.

 

[DAVIDJOHN53]

I passed the curve today on the train. It appeares there is activity and a single line Part of the curve has been laid already. It is not connected yet as there is much to do. Ballast of course has been laid,and there's a new Phone mast at the side of the line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There has been quite reasonable progress made this summer but the tunnel closure programme will allow plenty of time for the continuance of these works without much in the way of disruption.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Yes, and then we'll have to spend another £500,000,000 on doubling it in five/ten years time...

Well, it's only the same as one of those single-lead junctions they were so keen on putting in a few years back. Added complication here, of course, that the single lead (if such it be) joins the double track coming in from the Halifax direction, but its the same in principle. It's a little bit of single track in a generally double track layout.

The question is, "Where's the crossover? This end of the arches, that end of the arches, or ON the arches?" Somebody out there in the great railway planning department knows the answer. I bet the turnout and the crossover are already fabricated, assembled, stretched out in some old goods yard down the line maybe, ready to whistle into place on the day. Anybody know?

 

[Signal Head]

Well, it's only the same as one of those single-lead junctions they were so keen on putting in a few years back. Added complication here, of course, that the single lead (if such it be) joins the double track coming in from the Halifax direction, but its the same in principle. It's a little bit of single track in a generally double track layout.

The question is, "Where's the crossover? This end of the arches, that end of the arches, or ON the arches?" Somebody out there in the great railway planning department knows the answer.

Between the station and viaduct, as per previous advice in here.

I bet the turnout and the crossover are already fabricated, assembled, stretched out in some old goods yard down the line maybe, ready to whistle into place on the day.

Then you would lose your money!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I imagine the Brighouse reopening will have some clues as to how/why certain decisions have been made on this project. An earlier poster mentioned the Greetland-Dryclough section that of course was reinstated as double track (largely because the original track had never been lifted and all the signalling etc. was left in situ, abeit disused. Compare this to the Bradley Junction-Bradley Wood Junction section at the Huddersfield end which was relaid single-track though I think was originally double. There is also a complex-looking trap-points arrangement for services towards Huddersfield which I imagine would complicate things if the chord was ever redoubled.

 

[edwin_m]

Is the existing S&C at the Burnley end of the curve (Stansfield Hall) being kept? The crossover and banking engine siding which were left after the curve was removed appear to be on the alignment of the curve.

 

[Welshman]

I imagine the Brighouse reopening will have some clues as to how/why certain decisions have been made on this project. An earlier poster mentioned the Greetland-Dryclough section that of course was reinstated as double track (largely because the original track had never been lifted and all the signalling etc. was left in situ, abeit disused. Compare this to the Bradley Junction-Bradley Wood Junction section at the Huddersfield end which was relaid single-track though I think was originally double. There is also a complex-looking trap-points arrangement for services towards Huddersfield which I imagine would complicate things if the chord was ever redoubled.

You're right - the Bradley Junction-Bradley Wood Junction spur was originally double-track. When I look at it now, I wonder how they managed to get two tracks in - but there wasn't the encroaching vegetation in those days!

There has been much track-simplification in that area - look at Heaton Lodge Junction a little further down the line, where originally four tracks from the Huddersfield direction met four tracks from Brighouse!

 

[Signal Head]

You're right - the Bradley Junction-Bradley Wood Junction spur was originally double-track. When I look at it now, I wonder how they managed to get two tracks in - but there wasn't the encroaching vegetation in those days!

It wasn't singled by the re-instatement scheme, it been like that for a while, probably since resignalling onto Healey Mills box.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There has been quite reasonable progress made this summer but the tunnel closure programme will allow plenty of time for the continuance of these works without much in the way of disruption.

As most of the disruptive work is required at the Todmorden end for the new junction, I don't expect the Copy Pit closure will help much. In fact once that closes, possessions on the Rochdale route are likely to be harder to come by as it's not going to be desireable to have both routes closed at the same time, other than for short periods.

The word on the street is that the new pointwork will be installed before the Copy Pit blockade begins.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It wasn't singled by the re-instatement scheme, it been like that for a while, probably since resignalling onto Healey Mills box.

Prior to the reopening (1999/2000) the track at the Bradley curve had been lifted, though the pointwork at Bradley Junction remained in place. Don't know about the other end though, as there was never much opportunity to travel past it. Not sure when it was officially closed or if it was singled prior to that though.

As most of the disruptive work is required at the Todmorden end for the new junction, I don't expect the Copy Pit closure will help much. In fact once that closes, possessions on the Rochdale route are likely to be harder to come by as it's not going to be desireable to have both routes closed at the same time, other than for short periods.

The word on the street is that the new pointwork will be installed before the Copy Pit blockade begins.

That makes a fair bit of sense- get the Todmorden end done while you can still divert up Copy Pit (not that it's really a viable diversion but it reduces disruption further down the Calder Valley at least). Presumably they'll then move to the other end of the curve once the tunnel works start.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Presumably they'll then move to the other end of the curve once the tunnel works start.

There is a turnout existing at the other end of the curve. No trackwork to do.

 

[Ploughman]

Suitable for use?
Not requiring refurbishment?

 

[Signal Head]

Suitable for use?
Not requiring refurbishment?

Both the single lead and crossover are to undergo some degree of 'heavy maintenance' I understand. It is logical to presume this will happen during the Copy Pit blockade.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Between the station and viaduct, as per previous advice in here.

So, then, if I'm coming in from Burnley, I first cross over onto wrong road on the existing facing crossover at Stansfield Hall, then take the old (heavily maintained! I read) turnout to the right (lately to a mere engine siding, but now onto The Curve itself), negotiate the curve, tail onto the down main wrong road, proceed wrong road over the arches, use a new crossover (not yet installed) just before the station to gain right road and at last slide into Tod. sta. platform for Rochdale. Is it?
And coming home (I live(d) in Burnley), arriving from Rochdale into Tod Sta. on the Halifax/Leeds platform, depart thence over the arches right road, take the new curve to the left, and am deposited thereby on the right road at Stansfield Hall - and right o'way to Burnley.
Is that right?

Is the curve to have a check rail?

 

[Darren R]

There has been quite reasonable progress made this summer but the tunnel closure programme will allow plenty of time for the continuance of these works without much in the way of disruption.

Well I'm thinking that six months of having to catch the bus between Burnley and Hebden Bridge is going to be a little bit disruptive! (Actually, I'm thinking it's gonna be a right royal pain in the especially if we have a winter as bad as the last one )

 

[Signal Head]

So, then, if I'm coming in from Burnley, I first cross over onto wrong road on the existing facing crossover at Stansfield Hall, then take the old (heavily maintained! I read) turnout to the right (lately to a mere engine siding, but now onto The Curve itself), negotiate the curve, tail onto the down main wrong road, proceed wrong road over the arches, use a new crossover (not yet installed) just before the station to gain right road and at last slide into Tod. sta. platform for Rochdale. Is it?
And coming home (I live(d) in Burnley), arriving from Rochdale into Tod Sta. on the Halifax/Leeds platform, depart thence over the arches right road, take the new curve to the left, and am deposited thereby on the right road at Stansfield Hall - and right o'way to Burnley.
Is that right?

Yes, on both counts.

Is the curve to have a check rail?

I would expect so, as the original one did and I don't think the new curve radius will be massively different.

 

[AndyHudds]

Prior to the reopening (1999/2000) the track at the Bradley curve had been lifted, though the pointwork at Bradley Junction remained in place. Don't know about the other end though, as there was never much opportunity to travel past it. Not sure when it was officially closed or if it was singled prior to that though.



That makes a fair bit of sense- get the Todmorden end done while you can still divert up Copy Pit (not that it's really a viable diversion but it reduces disruption further down the Calder Valley at least). Presumably they'll then move to the other end of the curve once the tunnel works start.

Umm not sure your correct on that mate, as kids in the late 80's we used play on the line after it had been mothballed and as far as I can remember the tract was always in situ, just overgrown. We used to ride our bikes along the middle of the track!!!

I also seem to remember the line still being used occasionally in the early to mid 80's before being mothballed.Can anyone confirm this or is it my memory playing tricks on me?

 

[L&Y Robert]

Yes, on both counts.



I would expect so, as the original one did and I don't think the new curve radius will be massively different.

From the photographs I've seen (post 424) there was no check rail on the original.
No! I'm wrong! Close inspection reveals check rail on both roads. (blush)

 

[natureboy]

So, then, if I'm coming in from Burnley, I first cross over onto wrong road on the existing facing crossover at Stansfield Hall, then take the old (heavily maintained! I read) turnout to the right (lately to a mere engine siding, but now onto The Curve itself), negotiate the curve, tail onto the down main wrong road, proceed wrong road over the arches, use a new crossover (not yet installed) just before the station to gain right road and at last slide into Tod. sta. platform for Rochdale. Is it?
And coming home (I live(d) in Burnley), arriving from Rochdale into Tod Sta. on the Halifax/Leeds platform, depart thence over the arches right road, take the new curve to the left, and am deposited thereby on the right road at Stansfield Hall - and right o'way to Burnley.
Is that right?

Is the curve to have a check rail?

I'm anticipating the new crossover to be just west of Todmorden station thus making platform two bi-directional. I think it would be much easier, operationally speaking, if this was done. Siting the crossover on the end of the viaduct is not ideal. The only slight problem or issue then would be from the disabled fraternity who can't currently use platform two at Todmorden because of the stepped access! Oh well - can't please everyone!

 

[Signal Head]

I'm anticipating the new crossover to be just west of Todmorden station thus making platform two bi-directional.

You can if you like, but that isn't where it's going, as has been stated in here once or twice before.

 

[Whistler40145]

Does anyone on here know what's the most likely traction to be used on these services?

Will the Todmorden Curve be too tight for a Class 142, even though the curve will have a check rail?

 

[Ploughman]

If 14xxs can get round Crimple curve near Harrogate they will get round Todmorden Curve.

In fact Crimple is not really a curve its a corner.

 

[Eagle]

Does anyone on here know what's the most likely traction to be used on these services?

This is Northern we're talking about; no DMU is any more likely than any other :P