Todmorden Curve

[Signal Head]

My spy in the area reports that a huge compound has been established, complete with 2-storey portacabins, on land Anybody here know anythingbetween the road and the railway at Holme-in-Cliviger. Undoubtedly the tunnel works advance guard, don't you think? However, there's no report yet of anything happening on the "Curve site". She has a watching brief! Anybody here know anything? It is a project of huge interest to us ex Toddies.

Plant on site at curve. Clearance of vegetation and former sidings underway. Large piles of ballast and sleepers also seen on site.

 

[anti-pacer]

Why are the new East Lancashire-Manchester services going to be starting at Blackburn?

 

[mirodo]

Why are the new East Lancashire-Manchester services going to be starting at Blackburn?

Because Blackburn has the turnaround facilites in terms of spare platforms I guess?

 

[anti-pacer]

Because Blackburn has the turnaround facilites in terms of spare platforms I guess?

I think they should do a Blackburn-Accrington-Burnley-Todmorden-Rochdale-Manchester Victoria-Bolton-Blackburn-Clitheroe service, rather like a Fife Circle, or similar to what T&W Metro do on their coast services.

Advertise the train destination as Rochdale between Clitheroe and Manchester Victoria, then Blackburn via Burnley Manchester Road from Victoria.

The benefits:

* Through trains from Accrington, Burnley and Todmorden to Salford Crescent, for the university and bus link to Salford Quays

* More 'Cross-Manchester' journeys between Rochdale, Salford Crescent and Bolton.

* Hopefully better utilisation of stock, combining two lines together

What I'd also like to see, and it may have been talked about, are the Leeds-Manchester Victoria trains extended to Chester/North Wales.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Why wouldn't people get on the Quays trams at Victoria rather than finding a bus going to the right place at Crescent??

 

[anti-pacer]

Why wouldn't people get on the Quays trams at Victoria rather than finding a bus going to the right place at Crescent??

Good point, forgot about that.

 

[Starmill]

Your post kinda does make it sound like there's a direct service from Victoria to Salford Quays on Metrolink... it's almost always required to change at Cornbrook.

 

[cle]

And it's slow as hell!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think they should do a Blackburn-Accrington-Burnley-Todmorden-Rochdale-Manchester Victoria-Bolton-Blackburn-Clitheroe service, rather like a Fife Circle, or similar to what T&W Metro do on their coast services.
...

It becomes a huge headache once something goes wrong though - lose 10 mins between Burnley and Todmorden and you could end up half an hour down after waiting for paths through Victoria, Salford-Bolton and single thereafter towards Blackburn, which then of course has knock on effects to other services it runs alongside. Keeping both services separate is for me a much preferable option. Further, flows such as Burnley-Salford Crescent for the uni (which obviously would never happen as no resident of Burnley will ever be intelligent enough to get into a university) could be accommodated with a simple (perhaps even 5 min cross-platform) connection at Vic.

 

[CalderRail]

Sorry if these have already been answered and I missed them, but;

What are the knock-on effects of the Manc-Tod-Burnley route on the services through the Calder Valley as they exist now?

What are the effects on the potential to increase service frequency, additional stations (particularly Greetland/Elland, but also Low Moor, Hipperholme etc) and electrification?

 

[Starmill]

Further, flows such as Burnley-Salford Crescent for the uni (which obviously would never happen as no resident of Burnley will ever be intelligent enough to get into a university) could be accommodated with a simple (perhaps even 5 min cross-platform) connection at Vic.

I'm not even sure who should be more offended at that... Salford University... or the residents of Burnley!

 

[mirodo]

I'm not even sure who should be more offended at that... Salford University... or the residents of Burnley!

As a former resident of Burnley (who went to University), I'll leave my opinion on that to your imagination!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not even sure who should be more offended at that... Salford University... or the residents of Burnley!

Indeed so. With its long historical medieval centres of learning in the surrounding areas, Blackburn should have had its own university with hundred of years history behind it, but a certain monarch decided that he knew better and much accumulated knowledge was lost to the area.

It was unkindly said in the past that the pupils attending Clitheroe Royal Grammar School were the first choices for the better university places. Still I am sure that Blackburn can now boast of a number of madrassas that were not a feature of medieval English life.

 

[Sox]

Indeed so. With its long historical medieval centres of learning in the surrounding areas, Blackburn should have had its own university with hundred of years history behind it, but a certain monarch decided that he knew better and much accumulated knowledge was lost to the area.

It was unkindly said in the past that the pupils attending Clitheroe Royal Grammar School were the first choices for the better university places. Still I am sure that Blackburn can now boast of a number of madrassas that were not a feature of medieval English life.

Madrasses aside, over the last decade or so, Blackburn College has grown like topsy:

Blackburn College was established in 1888 as Blackburn Technical School in order to meet the training needs of local employers. The college originally specialised in engineering and textiles, and is now the second largest provider of college higher education in the UK. Degrees are validated in the main by Lancaster University.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/universities-and-colleges/9955128/Blackburn-College-guide.html

 

[chorleyjeff]

Your post kinda does make it sound like there's a direct service from Victoria to Salford Quays on Metrolink... it's almost always required to change at Cornbrook.

Sorry about that. The occasions I have gone to the Quays by tram I got on at Piccadilly.
But the idea of looking round for a bus stop somewhere near a station and not knowing the route number would put me off the bus connection. In fact when I have gone to the Quays from Crescent I have walked - I didn't know there was a direct bus.
Cheers
Jeff
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed so. With its long historical medieval centres of learning in the surrounding areas, Blackburn should have had its own university with hundred of years history behind it, but a certain monarch decided that he knew better and much accumulated knowledge was lost to the area.

It was unkindly said in the past that the pupils attending Clitheroe Royal Grammar School were the first choices for the better university places. Still I am sure that Blackburn can now boast of a number of madrassas that were not a feature of medieval English life.

I'm not sure that schools were a feature of almost anywhere in English ( not sure about Welsh, Scottish or Irish) medieval lives. But not, I would guess, anywhere near what is now Blackburn.
Cheers
Jeff

 

[edwin_m]

When we looked at the timetable for this service the idea was to extend the Rochdale terminator via the curve, and the way the timings worked out it would have had to wait a long time if it turned back at Rose Grove or Accrington, which as well as being a waste of resources would have blocked the main line as neither place has a suitable siding. In fact Manchester to Blackburn is not that much longer via the Curve than via Bolton so it provided a useful extra service to Blackburn too. I don't know if our timetable is the one actually to be adopted, as several things have changed since then, but even if the Clitheroe via Bolton now overtakes the Curve service at least the Todmorden to Blackburn leg provides an extra hourly train through East Lancs.

 

[Geeves]

Was passing by said curve today and it looks to have progressed somewhat

Large store of new ballast next to the mainline

Selection of wooden and concrete sleepers on site.

Curve being worked on by "Buckingham Group"

The foundations of the majority curve are already in place and you can clearly see the single track layout already

It looks like they could have it finished in about a month, obviously I know that wont be happening...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When we looked at the timetable for this service the idea was to extend the Rochdale terminator via the curve, and the way the timings worked out it would have had to wait a long time if it turned back at Rose Grove or Accrington, which as well as being a waste of resources would have blocked the main line as neither place has a suitable siding.

Would the fact that Blackburn now has four fully-operational platforms be the reason for the choice of it as the terminal station ?

 

[Sox]

When we looked at the timetable for this service the idea was to extend the Rochdale terminator via the curve, and the way the timings worked out it would have had to wait a long time if it turned back at Rose Grove or Accrington, which as well as being a waste of resources would have blocked the main line as neither place has a suitable siding. In fact Manchester to Blackburn is not that much longer via the Curve than via Bolton so it provided a useful extra service to Blackburn too. I don't know if our timetable is the one actually to be adopted, as several things have changed since then, but even if the Clitheroe via Bolton now overtakes the Curve service at least the Todmorden to Blackburn leg provides an extra hourly train through East Lancs.

Very interesting post, you couldn't post a sample of the envisaged timetable?

 

[edwin_m]

Very interesting post, you couldn't post a sample of the envisaged timetable?

No sorry, but if you start with the Calder Valley timetable circa summer 2011 and extend the Rochdale terminator you won't be far off.

 

[Darren R]

Very interesting post, you couldn't post a sample of the envisaged timetable?

I looked at this at the time of said debate, and spent a few idle moments (hours! ) using the WTT and a spreadsheet to see how it worked out. I seem to remember that it didn't - at least not without some timetable changes elsewhere. I'll try and remember to dig it out tomorrow and post it later. I think extending the Rochdale terminator to Blackburn as a semi-fast worked perfectly in one direction, but didn't work at all in the opposite!
(Who'd be a timetable planner? )

 

[Darren R]

It will be interesting to see what the timetable planners come up with for the re-opening. I can't remember where the notion of extending the current Wigan Wallgate - Rochdale trains up over Copy Pit to Blackburn came from, nor whether it was based on anything more than us lot speculating! I think it was because there is no planned major timetable recast until the Northern Chord and Lancashire electrification are complete.

Extending the Rochdale terminators does work (to my amateur eyes at least, although I didn't even look at the freight paths), but it is far from ideal. Journey times from Blackburn to Man Vic would be about 70 minutes, and they would have to depart from Blackburn only five minutes after the Blackpool North - York trains in order to maintain the current path from Rochdale. End-to-end would take just short of two hours. At the moment, units terminating at Wigan then sit in the Carriage Sidings for 24 minutes. Turn-around time at Blackburn would be 32 minutes, so one full return journey would be five hours.

Half an hour sitting in platform one at Blackburn seems excessive (not to mention inefficient), so I'm sure something better could be done which would need fewer units - but this might require substantial timetable changes elsewhere.

Based on the through-trains in the current timetable, there is the possibility of one or two odd workings:
- an early morning Kirkby to Blackburn via Bolton, Man Vic and Rochdale
- two afternoon Blackburn to Blackburn via Todmorden, Rochdale and Man Vic
- an afternoon Clitheroe to Blackburn via Blackburn (!), Man Vic and Rochdale.

The attached timetables are only the off-peak service pattern; before 9am and after 1600 it all gets too complicated! (The Blackburn - Wigan services are the ones highlighted - the others on the pages are current trains with potential conflicts in the Blackburn and Todmorden areas, if that makes sense!)

 

[L&Y Robert]

Should this thread be spit? One limb for those interested in rolling stock, timetables and so-on, the other limb for those interested in the engineering jobs at Tod and at Holm-in-Cliviger. I find I have to wade thtough all this stuff about which trains will run and what routes they'll take, just to get to THE MEAT of what's actually happening!

 

[WatcherZero]

It came from Northern, it was considered the lowest cost implementation as it required the least amount of additional rolling stock to operate.

 

[Darren R]

Should this thread be spit? One limb for those interested in rolling stock, timetables and so-on, the other limb for those interested in the engineering jobs at Tod and at Holm-in-Cliviger. I find I have to wade thtough all this stuff about which trains will run and what routes they'll take, just to get to THE MEAT of what's actually happening!

Apologies, but someone asked if there was any indications of potential journey times! I think there was at one time a thread relating to the Toddy Curve on the Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables section. Forgot this was on the Infrastructure bit!

 

[Sox]

Apologies, but someone asked if there was any indications of potential journey times! I think there was at one time a thread relating to the Toddy Curve on the Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables section. Forgot this was on the Infrastructure bit!

No need to apologise, the creation of infrastructure is integral to its intended use. I find speculation on the latter quite fascinating.

Although 70mins Blackburn to Man Vic, via Tod curve, is a little disappointing timewise (ex "slug train", Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester circa 50 mins) and seems to be driven more by the ability to "turn the train around" at Blackburn.

 

[L&Y Robert]

No need to apologise, the creation of infrastructure is integral to its intended use. I find speculation on the latter quite fascinating.

Although 70mins Blackburn to Man Vic, via Tod curve, is a little disappointing timewise (ex "slug train", Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester circa 50 mins) and seems to be driven more by the ability to "turn the train around" at Blackburn.

And so, with only a minor swerve away from the "fascinating" speculation about timetables and wot not, we're back on the - er - speculation about timetables and wot-not!
Yawn.
Ah - um.

And now, in a very tiny voice, humbly and apologetically delivered lest the speculative thread be interrupted "So anybody know what's happening on the ground at Tod, then?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And now, in a very tiny voice, humbly and apologetically delivered lest the speculative thread be interrupted "So anybody know what's happening on the ground at Tod, then?

Geeves made quite an interesting recent posting about matters there on # 467.

 

[edwin_m]

And so, with only a minor swerve away from the "fascinating" speculation about timetables and wot not, we're back on the - er - speculation about timetables and wot-not!
Yawn.
Ah - um.

And now, in a very tiny voice, humbly and apologetically delivered lest the speculative thread be interrupted "So anybody know what's happening on the ground at Tod, then?

I don't see how a few timetable posts destroy the interest of the thread even if you're purely interested in the engineering. If it was split into two then inevitably they would wander and end up covering the same ground anyway, since as suggested the infrastructure and the timetable are closely related.

The HS2 thread would be a much better candidate for splitting, one on whether it is worthwhile and another on how it would look and work.

 

[175001]

Passed Tod this morning to see metal on the ground!