Todmorden Curve

[yorksrob]

The counter-balance to inwards London job migration is the cost of rented accommodation that is the norm in London or for those hoping to buy a property, the large percentage mortgage deposit requirements of house prices in London which are far in excess of those normally seen in the North of England....except for those fortunate to live where I reside in the Cheshire Golden Triangle.

This is true. Whilst the London property market remains a basket case, that counter - pull is likely to remain to one extent or another. Of course, I wouldn't mind betting that a large piece of transport infrastructure will be around a lot longer than the prevailing circumstance of the London property market!

 

[158756]

While I agree that in railway revenue terms, increasing the Burnley to Blackburn share of the commuter market is a good thing, it actually is counter to the regeneration aims of the funding for the Curve. This was to reduce the overwhelming numbers of commuters from Burnley to neighbouring low salary districts (Pendle, Hyndburn and Blackburn) and increase the numbers commuting to areas with higher pay.

As has been posted before in this thread, the numbers commuting to each district area may be determined online from census data.

Why on earth is it desirable to reduce commuting within East Lancashire? Surely the towns are better off being more closely linked than separate?
Manchester is irrelevant. It is not big enough or expensive enough to make commuting so far from such an unattractive area a popular option.(And I will be very surprised if it ever becomes so). Using the aforementioned census stats, less than 4% of outward commuting from Blackburn with Darwen is to Manchester, despite having more better off areas, and a long standing rail link with shorter journeys and a better service than Burnley has.

Burnley is not full of well qualified people sitting around on the off chance that the Todmorden Curve might reopen within their lifetimes. Qualifications are generally poor(look at local GCSE pass rates) and those who go to university often don't return. Few people in Burnley will be able to get a well paid job in Manchester, and low pay close to home is surely less bad than low pay minus travel costs.

As for the rail link attracting new people to Burnley, over an hour's commute is unattractively long, especially without a nice place to live at the end of it. There are dozens of more desirable places(ie anywhere) to live closer to Manchester which aren't prohibitively expensive.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Burnley is not full of well qualified people sitting around on the off chance that the Todmorden Curve might reopen within their lifetimes. Qualifications are generally poor(look at local GCSE pass rates) and those who go to university often don't return.

From what you say, things don't appear to have changed over-much since the mid 1960's when I visited the premises of Perseverance Mills at Padiham, to see the operational problems of their water-jet looms and the manager who took me around made the comment..
"The lasses in Padiham all put in their works curlers every day from Monday to Saturday, but on Sunday, they put their best curlers in"....

 

[Darren R]

Has anyone any information (direct or anecdotal) about how passenger loadings have been this week? The line from Blackburn to Bolton has been closed since Monday, so I'm wondering if many passengers have chosen to use the longer route rather than the rail replacement bus services. The direct route currently takes an hour and three quarters (with a change back to train at Bolton), as opposed to 70 minutes by rail via Todmorden, but there is scant information available as to whether Northern have relaxed ticket restrictions during the disruption. If they haven't, the choice currently is whether to pay extra to get to Manchester quicker via the longer route, or pay the normal fare and put up with the extended journey times.

(Having said that, from what I've seen and heard so far there is no attempt being made at any revenue collection on the replacement buses, so provided you're not continuing your journey by train, all journeys are currently free.)

 

[30907]

(Having said that, from what I've seen and heard so far there is no attempt being made at any revenue collection on the replacement buses, so provided you're not continuing your journey by train, all journeys are currently free.)

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=118605 would suggest otherwise.

 

[M60lad]

Regarding revenue collection on Rail Replacements where Northern/Abellio are concerned I have been told by Abellio Control Staff that I know that they are not allowed to check tickets whatsoever and that's what their told in their training.

Only people that are allowed to check tickets on rail replacements are either Northern's own staff or their Security Staff that check tickets anyway.

 

[175001]

Has anyone any information (direct or anecdotal) about how passenger loadings have been this week? The line from Blackburn to Bolton has been closed since Monday, so I'm wondering if many passengers have chosen to use the longer route rather than the rail replacement bus services. [/I]

Seemed busier than the previous weeks for sure, plenty waiting at Blackburn for it, than what I've seen since May 17th

 

[kieron]

It probably doesn't hurt that the NRE and Northern web sites (for two) now show the route via Todmorden as a valid route between Manchester and various stations between Bolton and Blackburn, meaning that they promote the route for more requests, and show it at more attractive prices than normal.

 

[158756]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u..._car_park_at_busy_train_station_hits_buffers/

Given the location of the station how they hope to make it a success without a decent car park I'm not sure. Though as is always the case in this country,they've just built the current car park last year, so why did they build it so small?

If someone will pay for it (probably the main issue) there's no shortage of derelict or underused sites to move the ambulances to.

As for the other idea for Rose Grove: is 'mini bus interchange' synonymous with 'bus shelter'. Anything more would seem rather excessive for an hourly train and few buses.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what you say, things don't appear to have changed over-much since the mid 1960's when I visited the premises of Perseverance Mills at Padiham, to see the operational problems of their water-jet looms and the manager who took me around made the comment..
"The lasses in Padiham all put in their works curlers every day from Monday to Saturday, but on Sunday, they put their best curlers in"....

Perseverance Mill closed in 2005 and was demolished, with the rubble and various fly-tipping left as a horrendous eyesore. There was talk of clearing it up, but I don't know if it ever happened.

 

[spongsdad]

Interesting that the Borders Railway ( see Post #1299 on that thread) will be using 158s "to give the new line a chance of economic success", I'm trying to follow that line of reasoning behind the provision of our finest Pacers on the Blackburn-Todmorden-Manchester route. Given that the car park at BYM seems already to be inadequate, it's perhaps fortunate that Northern haven't done more to encourage people onto trains

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perseverance Mill closed in 2005 and was demolished, with the rubble and various fly-tipping left as a horrendous eyesore. There was talk of clearing it up, but I don't know if it ever happened.

Thanks for that information, which covers a period almost 40 years after my visit. At the time of the Vietnam war, they were weaving heavy duty parachute cloth for GQ Parachute (who I think they were Woking based) and they wove A, B, C and D specification cloths for the M o D. I think the Higham family once had an interest in this business but they were then part of a grouping of companies.

They did have, at that time of my visit to Padiham, a Manchester sales office on Aytoun Street, opposite to what was then the Grand Hotel, but the site is now naught but a surface car park.

 

[Starmill]

I was on the 1656 from Manchester Victoria to Blackburn via Todmorden recently, an exotic 156+153 combination, and it was very very full until Rochdale :P There were a handful still on after Todmorden, all would have approximately filled 1 of the coaches. I wonder how busy the following train is...

 

[Darren R]

Interesting that the Borders Railway ( see Post #1299 on that thread) will be using 158s "to give the new line a chance of economic success", I'm trying to follow that line of reasoning behind the provision of our finest Pacers on the Blackburn-Todmorden-Manchester route. Given that the car park at BYM seems already to be inadequate, it's perhaps fortunate that Northern haven't done more to encourage people onto trains

The usual traction on Todmorden services is Class 156, not Pacers. Class 156 units are the best units that Northern could run on the route.

 

[spongsdad]

The usual traction on Todmorden services is Class 156, not Pacers. Class 156 units are the best units that Northern could run on the route.

In which case, I stand corrected. Is this a recent change? In the early days of the service and with the exception of the weekend services extended to Clitheroe, there certainly seemed to be a preponderance of Pacers, particularly in the off-peak. Also, would it be right to presume that the temporary cessation of services from Clitheroe to Manchester via Darwen has freed up one or two units to run the long way round?

 

[lejog]

Thanks for that information, which covers a period almost 40 years after my visit. At the time of the Vietnam war, they were weaving heavy duty parachute cloth for GQ Parachute (who I think they were Woking based) and they wove A, B, C and D specification cloths for the M o D. I think the Higham family once had an interest in this business but they were then part of a grouping of companies.

They did have, at that time of my visit to Padiham, a Manchester sales office on Aytoun Street, opposite to what was then the Grand Hotel, but the site is now naught but a surface car park.

Perserverance Mills survived until 2005 by producing Pertex - a lightweight windproof fabric much used in outdoors clothing - on modern, hi-tech looms in Padiham. While this was profitable, the company diversified into other areas (packaging IIRC) which were not a success and it went into receivership. The looms were sold to Japan and all production moved there. Pertex still has its design centre in Bolton, but now employs smaller numbers of engineers/marketing & sales people in the UK, rather than large numbers of mill workers.

A typical tale of why regeneration of the area is required.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Burnley is not full of well qualified people sitting around on the off chance that the Todmorden Curve might reopen within their lifetimes. Qualifications are generally poor(look at local GCSE pass rates) and those who go to university often don't return. Few people in Burnley will be able to get a well paid job in Manchester, and low pay close to home is surely less bad than low pay minus travel costs.

As for the rail link attracting new people to Burnley, over an hour's commute is unattractively long, especially without a nice place to live at the end of it. There are dozens of more desirable places(ie anywhere) to live closer to Manchester which aren't prohibitively expensive.

Burnley wants to attract both businesses and better paid professionals by the regeneration of the Weaver's Triangle adjacent to Manchester Rd station. The slow progress on this regeneration (see wiki) makes Network Rail look positively speedy in constructing the Todmorden Curve - regeneration attempts have been going on for 25years now. But Burnley council are not giving up - their latest plan is for a £100m "On The Banks" development, although this is presumably less ambitious than the £260m 2006 plan, which didn't get off the ground.

Also Burnley Council have always campaigned for/expected a faster service to Manchester, even publicizing a 35 min journey time (presumably non stop) which was totally at odds with Northern Hub requirements for speeding up Bradford to Manchester services, supported by other local councils, DfT and the rail industry.

You may note a touch of cynicism here, my previous post only reported the official aims of the project, not my view of them.

 

[L&Y Robert]

I was waiting on Tod. Sta. this morning (17/08/15) for a train to Victoria. I noticed signal PN317 which stands at the Leeds end of the Manchester platform - to control, I presume, a movement from that platform in the 'wrong' direction towards Leeds. It was displaying red, and it is surmounted by a banner of some sort (blank), and also carries a '20' speed limit and a left arrow - that'd be a movement over the crossover. Is there any traffic in the timetable which is going to leave the Manchester-bound platform in the wrong direction? Has it been installed, perhaps, to keep the option for a Leeds - Burnley to call at Tod, change ends, then proceed back over the arches, round the bend and off up to Burnley? Anything known?

 

[spongsdad]

I was waiting on Tod. Sta. this morning (17/08/15) for a train to Victoria. I noticed signal PN317 which stands at the Leeds end of the Manchester platform - to control, I presume, a movement from that platform in the 'wrong' direction towards Leeds. It was displaying red, and it is surmounted by a banner of some sort (blank), and also carries a '20' speed limit and a left arrow - that'd be a movement over the crossover. Is there any traffic in the timetable which is going to leave the Manchester-bound platform in the wrong direction? Has it been installed, perhaps, to keep the option for a Leeds - Burnley to call at Tod, change ends, then proceed back over the arches, round the bend and off up to Burnley? Anything known?

I'm not 100% certain about this but when crew training started in Feb/Mar this year, the train having run from Victoria to Blackburn then made several round trips Blackburn-Todmorden-Blackburn. I have a feeling that on at least some of these trips, the train ran into the Manchester bound platform and reversed from there, thereby using PN317 though I think many of these journeys actually reversed on the curve itself.

 

[edwin_m]

If there is a crossover provided (which there has to be to allow trains from Burnley to continue towards Manchester) then it would be pretty shortsighted not to provide a signal even if no moves are scheduled to use it at the time. In the several decades lifetime of the signalling this is likely to be needed from time to time, during planned or unplanned blockages even if not timetabled, and adding the signal later would be much more costly.

 

[Class 170101]

Almost certainly allows for engineering works south of Todmorden thereby allowing trains from Bradford or Blackburn to reverse and return back.

 

[WCMLaddict]

Just a normal crossover point needed if for example line up ahead is blocked. The signal can give you two routes, towards Hebden and onto the curve.
Interestingly the whole triangle is signalled in a away that would allow to 'turn around' a train regardles of which direction it comes from.

 

[Starmill]

What? Pacers and 153s in various formations do go to Burnley via Todmorden relatively often. It's not all 156s, it's whatever turns up. Just like the rest of it. There's far less chance of a 156 on a lot of diesel routes right now because 6 of them have gone to TPE.

 

[chrissawer]

Almost certainly allows for engineering works south of Todmorden thereby allowing trains from Bradford or Blackburn to reverse and return back.

Yes - this has already happened.

I was on the last Bradford-bound train from Todmorden one Sunday evening a few weeks ago. There were engineering works between Todmorden and Rochdale so the previous train from Bradford terminated at Todmorden and formed the last service, departing from platform 1 back towards Halifax/Bradford over the crossover.

Unfortunately the screens and announcements still said platform 2 and a number of people got left behind as they didn't spot the train sitting in platform 1 with headlights on the Bradford-facing end.

I am not aware of any timetabled traffic which leaves platform 1 in this direction. This happens at Hebden Bridge where a couple of trains a day leave for Leeds from the "wrong" platform.

 

[lejog]

The last but one train from Leeds on a Sunday terminates at Todmorden at 2151 and runs back empty to Leeds, so presumably uses this crossover.

Edit: I've just noticed that RTT has this service magically arriving at platform 1 and departing from platform 2! Not that this matters when the train run backs empty, but might explain why the wrong platform was displayed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The last but one train from Leeds on a Sunday terminates at Todmorden at 2151 and runs back empty to Leeds, so presumably uses this crossover.

Edit: I've just noticed that RTT has this service magically arriving at platform 1 and departing from platform 2! Not that this matters when the train run backs empty, but might explain why the wrong platform was displayed.

If it's a pacer, a skilled driver can, by shifting his or her weight between the driver and secondman's side rhythmically, create just the right amount of bounce to allow this!

 

[HowardGWR]

Yes - this has already happened.

I was on the last Bradford-bound train from Todmorden one Sunday evening a few weeks ago. There were engineering works between Todmorden and Rochdale so the previous train from Bradford terminated at Todmorden and formed the last service, departing from platform 1 back towards Halifax/Bradford over the crossover.

Unfortunately the screens and announcements still said platform 2 and a number of people got left behind as they didn't spot the train sitting in platform 1 with headlights on the Bradford-facing end.

I am not aware of any timetabled traffic which leaves platform 1 in this direction. This happens at Hebden Bridge where a couple of trains a day leave for Leeds from the "wrong" platform.

If it was the last train, would they have been entitled to taxi and /or refund? May I presume you read about this in the paper, as otherwise you would have told them?

 

[chrissawer]

If it was the last train, would they have been entitled to taxi and /or refund? May I presume you read about this in the paper, as otherwise you would have told them?

I saw them from the train as it pulled away so too late to tell them. I would have been very annoyed in their situation and I hope they managed to get some recompense.

 

[HowardGWR]

I saw them from the train as it pulled away so too late to tell them. I would have been very annoyed in their situation and I hope they managed to get some recompense.

Thanks for your reply, I had indeed hoped you would not be so callous as to ignore their fate. Your story does tend to reinforce the view that some staff, hopefully a tiny minority, may not be sufficiently motivated. This is not about infrastructure any longer so excuse this reply.

 

[Llama]

I was waiting on Tod. Sta. this morning (17/08/15) for a train to Victoria. I noticed signal PN317 which stands at the Leeds end of the Manchester platform - to control, I presume, a movement from that platform in the 'wrong' direction towards Leeds. It was displaying red, and it is surmounted by a banner of some sort (blank), and also carries a '20' speed limit and a left arrow - that'd be a movement over the crossover. Is there any traffic in the timetable which is going to leave the Manchester-bound platform in the wrong direction? Has it been installed, perhaps, to keep the option for a Leeds - Burnley to call at Tod, change ends, then proceed back over the arches, round the bend and off up to Burnley? Anything known?

Correct, PN317 signal is a three-aspect controlled signal and can display route indications 'W' for the Up & Down West Curve (towards Stansfield Hall Jn) and 'L' for the Down L&Y (towards Hall Royd Jn).
As far as I am aware it was installed for operational flexibility. Nothing is actually booked to proceed on the authority that signal other than the Sunday service mentioned as things stand. It would be perfectly possible for a passenger train from the Hebden Bridge direction to change ends in the Up platform at Todmorden, obey PN317 signal and proceed towards Burnley - perhaps in the case of an infrastructure or traction unit fault. This would be assuming that it was a Leeds or Manchester Victoria traincrew operating the service - Blackpool North drivers don't sign the L&Y lines between Hall Royd Jn and Todmorden...

 

[crispy1978]

This new route seems to have opened up a new, and slightly quicker, way for us to get from Scarborough to Accrington.

Less time in Leeds (which isn't a bad thing!) and a change at TOD gets us in about 20 minutes quicker than previously. It's the route NRE is giving too with it being quicker (the old SCA-YRK/LDS-ACR is still there - just warns you it's slower/gets overtaken!)

Travelling tomorrow so will give it a whirl!

 

[Sox]

Visited Todmorden today.

If you were a stranger, you wouldn't get much of an impression that the new curve exists or even that there is an option for catching trains to Burnley (and beyond).

A lot of the signage/information material pre dates the opening, photo below is typical: