Todmorden Curve

[Flying Claret]

That's an ex-FNW unit which would have had a full refurbishment but I think you may have imagined the tables, the seat design allows flip down tables to be fitted to the rear but the tables have never been fitted.

Youre probably right. I think the tables were on the journey home 156?

 

[Sox]

Does T-curve provide more opportunity for steam specials?

In other words, are there any limitations with the track/signalling that prevents an engine doing a 180 when approaching the junction from any of the three available directions?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It was speculated about on here slightly before Manchester Road became staffed, and the latest copy of Schedule 17 now shows Burnley Central's booking office hours have gone from 0635-2145 Monday-Saturday and 1125-1900 Sunday to 0630-1330 Monday-Friday and nowt on weekends. Manchester Road now assumes Central's previous hours. Nearby, Blackburn and Blackpool North have had hours amended slightly, and Chorley has taken a big cut in the evening.

Source - http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/governance/

 

[HowardGWR]

Before this thread expires, totally exhausted, does anyone know why it has to be a Todmorden 'curve' and not a 'chord' as with Ordsall? To me a curve, in railway or road terms, (er, hastily clarified) is a bend and does not have to join up anything.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Before this thread expires, totally exhausted, does anyone know why it has to be a Todmorden 'curve' and not a 'chord' as with Ordsall? To me a curve, in railway or road terms, (er, hastily clarified) is a bend and does not have to join up anything.

If you look at every posting that I can remember making on this ever-running quiz, I have always referred to it as the Todmorden Chord.

 

[30907]

I caught the 7.26 from accy this morning. Somewhat of a mixed bag in terms of stock. A 150 with a pacer at the back. Definitely not 2+1 seating. The 150 was decent enough inside, have they had a refurb?
Passenger numbers not massive for what would have been the main commuter train of the day. About 12 at accy and 20 boarding at burnley. That said, by the time it got to Victoria it was standing room only across the 4 carriages.

Just to report that 1654 ex Vic on Thursday was 153 + 156. Seemed quiet at Todmorden, but 30-40 alighted, mainly from the front coach, at Burnley. I'd guess this is as busy as it gets.

 

[Whistler40145]

I had 142001 on the 16:20 ex-Blackburn on Tuesday afternoon, chugged up Copy Pit, smooth journey for a Nodding Donkey!

 

[HowardGWR]

If you look at every posting that I can remember making on this ever-running quiz, I have always referred to it as the Todmorden Chord.

We'll take your word for it Paul.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I did describe on this thread of a journey that I had made from Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe (and return) on the very first "Saturday" running that occurred using the line of the Copy Pit line and a reversal at Blackburn station.

Has anyone else made such a similar "Saturday" journey on that special routing and if so, what rolling stock was used?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I did the Curve done for the first time yesterday.

Outward I got 2J68 1156 ex-Man Vic, which was relatively quiet throughout (142029 was doing the honours), with five passengers onboard between Todmorden and Burnley; at the latter two alighted (including myself) and no-one boarded.

I returned on 2F83 1320 ex-Blackburn (from Burnley), using the same unit as outward. This time it was a little better filled - about seven or eight alighted at Burnley, and four (myself included again) boarded, joining the two already onboard. It filled up well beyond Todmorden.

So, not compelling numbers. Oddly enough at Todmorden on the outward leg a group of four staff joined the guard (presumably trainees or on route training), so between Todmorden and Burnley there were actually more staff onboard than passengers!

 

[yorksrob]

I found myself using the new service from Todmorden to Victoria today due to there no longer being a direct service between Bradford and the intermediate stops around Rochdale.

Given it's a new service, I thought I was going to have an easy time of it, perhaps having to share a carriage with one flat capped man and his dog.

Imagine my surprise to see a 150 pull up at Todmorden almost standing room only! It was certainly busy enough to be annoying.

 

[Flying Claret]

I found myself using the new service from Todmorden to Victoria today due to there no longer being a direct service between Bradford and the intermediate stops around Rochdale.

Given it's a new service, I thought I was going to have an easy time of it, perhaps having to share a carriage with one flat capped man and his dog.

Imagine my surprise to see a 150 pull up at Todmorden almost standing room only! It was certainly busy enough to be annoying.

Rob, just out of interest, what time was this?
Although this service has been funded by local authorities based on increasing commuter passengers, I suspect in the short term, it will be leisure travellers that will use the service more, especially at weekends. A lot of people in east lancs enjoy a day out in manc.
The commuter usage of the train will take a lot longer to increase.

 

[krus_aragon]

Before this thread expires, totally exhausted, does anyone know why it has to be a Todmorden 'curve' and not a 'chord' as with Ordsall? To me a curve, in railway or road terms, (er, hastily clarified) is a bend and does not have to join up anything.

Todmorden's not exclusive in that club. The chord in Cardiff that connects the City line (Ninian Park) with the Penarth/Barry line (Grangetown) has always been known as the Penarth Curve. The junctions at each end are named Penarth Curve North & South Jns.

 

[edwin_m]

Todmorden's not exclusive in that club. The chord in Cardiff that connects the City line (Ninian Park) with the Penarth/Barry line (Grangetown) has always been known as the Penarth Curve. The junctions at each end are named Penarth Curve North & South Jns.

Also Dore South Curve, Lifford Curve, and probably others that don't spring to mind at present.

 

[yorksrob]

Rob, just out of interest, what time was this?
Although this service has been funded by local authorities based on increasing commuter passengers, I suspect in the short term, it will be leisure travellers that will use the service more, especially at weekends. A lot of people in east lancs enjoy a day out in manc.
The commuter usage of the train will take a lot longer to increase.

It was some time after 11, so no doubt plenty of people out to Manchester for shopping.

 

[30907]

It was some time after 11, so no doubt plenty of people out to Manchester for shopping.

And through from Clitheroe reversing at Blackburn because of Farnworth Tunnel.

 

[yorksrob]

And through from Clitheroe reversing at Blackburn because of Farnworth Tunnel.

Ah, that might explain it.

I did wonder whether it had come through from somewhere else. Good to see that the curve is already proving valuable in terms of wider operating flexibility.

 

[lejog]

Ah, that might explain it.

I did wonder whether it had come through from somewhere else. Good to see that the curve is already proving valuable in terms of wider operating flexibility.

I travelled from Victoria to Clitheroe via Burnley a couple of weeks ago. While the train was full leaving Victoria a grand total of four people got off at Burnley, on the return journey there were 6 passengers from Burnley on a Saturday evening (there were a few more passengers travelling Burnley to Blackburn and vice versa). Rose Grove had one solitary passenger alighting, Accrington had similar numbers to Burnley.

Most of the passengers were for stations to Tod and Blackburn to Clitheroe.

 

[edwin_m]

The main purpose of reinstating the curve was to give residents of Burnley and surrounding areas, which are some of the most impoverished in the UK, access to jobs in central Manchester and elsewhere. This sort of demand doesn't appear overnight, as it depends on people identifying opportunities and going through the application process. Some may even depend on people moving to take advantage of cheap housing that now has much better links to the city centre. So it won't really be possible to judge whether this service is meeting its predictions until probably a couple of years in.

 

[30907]

most of the passengers were for stations to Tod and Blackburn to Clitheroe.

As you would expect, as even the Clitheroe line has been running for 20 years.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As you would expect, as even the Clitheroe line has been running for 20 years.

Indeed, that was one of the line reopenings to passenger train services that has proved its worth.

 

[Darren R]

Although I've not had chance to traverse the full route yet, I do regularly catch or see the services arriving and departing at the Blackburn end. They offer a very useful third train per hour between Blackburn, Accrington and Burnley, a commuter market (in both directions) that is larger than most people would expect. I've noticed that, even off-peak, loadings along this corridor have visibly increased as the weeks have progressed since their introduction. Even if loadings have been generally light between Burnley and Todmorden, for which there is anecdotal evidence at least, it is a very useful service at both ends. I think that passenger loadings over the actual Curve itself will slowly continue to increase over time.

In addition, the route has proved a valuable alternative route between Blackburn and Manchester at times of disruption via Bolton - whether the disruption be planned or otherwise. (There are a lot of low bridges between Blackburn and Darwen! ) There is some anecdotal evidence that weekend services are more heavily patronised when the route via Darwen is closed. With the imminent total closure of that route for five weeks for the upgrade works, I rather suspect that a lot of passengers from stations between Clitheroe and Blackburn heading to Manchester will chose the Todmorden services rather than the plethora of bus replacements.

 

[PR1Berske]

These daily updates of passenger numbers have their use, but I agree that the true story of the reopening will only be told in a wider context from a future vantage point.

 

[Deerfold]

The competition is on the move again in a few weeks.

As suspected, the Witch Way is adding later journeys - on a Saturday night / Sunday morning at 0000, 0100, 0200 and 0300 from Manchester. It's also changing route in Manchester in a bid to speed up journeys.

http://www.lancashirebus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=1459

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The competition is on the move again in a few weeks.

As suspected, the Witch Way is adding later journeys - on a Saturday night / Sunday morning at 0000, 0100, 0200 and 0300 from Manchester. It's also changing route in Manchester in a bid to speed up journeys.

http://www.lancashirebus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=1459

It was only to be expected that Transdev would not just let matters lie. Those late Saturday night and Sunday morning new services are helpful to those using the club scene in Manchester. The current Manchester Metrolink 2CC ongoing and future works on Cross Street are something that were bound to cause disruption in the Manchester city core.

 

[lejog]

Although I've not had chance to traverse the full route yet, I do regularly catch or see the services arriving and departing at the Blackburn end. They offer a very useful third train per hour between Blackburn, Accrington and Burnley, a commuter market (in both directions) that is larger than most people would expect. I've noticed that, even off-peak, loadings along this corridor have visibly increased as the weeks have progressed since their introduction. Even if loadings have been generally light between Burnley and Todmorden, for which there is anecdotal evidence at least, it is a very useful service at both ends. I think that passenger loadings over the actual Curve itself will slowly continue to increase over time.

While I agree that in railway revenue terms, increasing the Burnley to Blackburn share of the commuter market is a good thing, it actually is counter to the regeneration aims of the funding for the Curve. This was to reduce the overwhelming numbers of commuters from Burnley to neighbouring low salary districts (Pendle, Hyndburn and Blackburn) and increase the numbers commuting to areas with higher pay.

As has been posted before in this thread, the numbers commuting to each district area may be determined online from census data.

 

[Peter Lanky]

I wasn't aware of the reasoning behind the reinstatement of the line, not being from that area. While any regeneration of the railway is to be welcomed. it worries me that there is actually an official drive to increase the number of people commuting anywhere, but especially into Manchester.

This may create the so called 'northern powerhouse' that the politicians love to talk about so much, but it will eventually drain all smaller towns of any jobs, culture and facilities in order to achieve this, along with wasting a couple of hours a day of everybody's life just travelling to work, and putting more pressure on the transport infrastructure twice a day while being massively underused the rest of the time.

There should be a drive to create jobs in the towns where people actually live, and using the railways to then enjoy the extra leisure time they have by not spending all of it going to and from work, but then who am I to comment compared with a 'clever' politician?

 

[yorksrob]

I wasn't aware of the reasoning behind the reinstatement of the line, not being from that area. While any regeneration of the railway is to be welcomed. it worries me that there is actually an official drive to increase the number of people commuting anywhere, but especially into Manchester.

This may create the so called 'northern powerhouse' that the politicians love to talk about so much, but it will eventually drain all smaller towns of any jobs, culture and facilities in order to achieve this, along with wasting a couple of hours a day of everybody's life just travelling to work, and putting more pressure on the transport infrastructure twice a day while being massively underused the rest of the time.

There should be a drive to create jobs in the towns where people actually live, and using the railways to then enjoy the extra leisure time they have by not spending all of it going to and from work, but then who am I to comment compared with a 'clever' politician?

Maybe to a point, but there's a limit to what you can do in terms of employment and culture with small towns because they don't have that critical mass of population. Cities like Manchester and Leeds etc are the economic and cultural lungs of the area, and small towns that don't have adequate access to them suffer.

In terms of your argument, I feel that the bigger risk is of everything getting sucked down to London by HS2, but that's another thread.

 

[edwin_m]

It's a similar reasoning to reopening the Robin Hood Line or developing the Cardiff Valleys. The towns served by these routes were originally largely self-contained in employment terms, with people living near the mill, steelworks or pit where the men worked and the women were mainly housewives. Virtually nobody would have commuted into the city from these towns, as the relatively few people with the income to afford a commute would have chosen to live somewhere more leafy such as south Manchester.

That no longer applies with the loss of most of these heavy industries. Jobs are now much more in the big city centres and commuting is essential because there isn't enough space to house all the workers within walking distance. Thus providing good links to surrounding towns is essential to the prosperity of the city centres and probably the only way to bring a degree of prosperity to the towns.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In terms of your argument, I feel that the bigger risk is of everything getting sucked down to London by HS2, but that's another thread.

The counter-balance to inwards London job migration is the cost of rented accommodation that is the norm in London or for those hoping to buy a property, the large percentage mortgage deposit requirements of house prices in London which are far in excess of those normally seen in the North of England....except for those fortunate to live where I reside in the Cheshire Golden Triangle.