• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Todmorden Curve

Status
Not open for further replies.

HowardGWR

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
4,983
Visited Todmorden today.

If you were a stranger, you wouldn't get much of an impression that the new curve exists or even that there is an option for catching trains to Burnley (and beyond).

Well spotted. If I were an average punter with a ticket for Burnley, I would assume that trains for that place probably went from the platform for Rochdale and Manchester.

I makes we supporters of rail weep, does it not?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
9,247
Location
Yorkshire
Visited Todmorden today.

If you were a stranger, you wouldn't get much of an impression that the new curve exists or even that there is an option for catching trains to Burnley (and beyond).

A lot of the signage/information material pre dates the opening, photo below is typical:

IMG_2166_zpsh8e3onkw.jpg

Meanwhile, at Accrington where I visited on Friday, the signage states Manchester as an option from the Colne bound platform! I will upload a picture later
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,868
Location
Airedale
Meanwhile, at Accrington where I visited on Friday, the signage states Manchester as an option from the Colne bound platform! I will upload a picture later

Why the exclamation mark? Glad it's been done as until May the obvious route was to change at Blackburn.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
Why the exclamation mark? Glad it's been done as until May the obvious route was to change at Blackburn.

Clearly on those stations with a valid route in either direction, a Brighouse solution is required: there, the platforms are labelled as being for Huddersfield, Leeds (via Dewsbury), Wakefield and London Kings Cross; and for Halifax, Bradford, Manchester Victoria and Leeds (via Bradford).
 

Sox

Member
Joined
22 Oct 2010
Messages
265
Interestingly, Rail Journey Planner offers just the one alternative, Todmorden to Manchester Road, but two on the return (via Hebden Bridge):

For £8, or so, you could sample all three sides of the Todmorden Triangle (with some beer at each of the three apexes!).

1_zpswdjp8kkf.png



2_zpsozjlyvbn.png
 
Last edited:

crispy1978

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2013
Messages
1,037
Location
Scarborough
Visited Todmorden today.

If you were a stranger, you wouldn't get much of an impression that the new curve exists or even that there is an option for catching trains to Burnley (and beyond).

A lot of the signage/information material pre dates the opening, photo below is typical:

IMG_2166_zpsh8e3onkw.jpg

I spotted that today on my visit from Scarborough to Accrington. It needs sorting as my wife was convinced we were on the wrong platform (what she didn't know was I'd already read the info screen on platform 2 so I knew I was right!

Does anyone have a map/diagram of the curve? I can't quite picture the geography as I don't know the area.
 

Sox

Member
Joined
22 Oct 2010
Messages
265
Does anyone have a map/diagram of the curve? I can't quite picture the geography as I don't know the area.

By a bit of random googling, I found the diagram below showing how the curve fits in with the greater network (this in itself raises an interesting point in that a high proportion of the on-line rail network maps, that include Todmorden, are now inaccurate).

a60b7582-079a-11e5-9-TmF87.png
 
Last edited:

crispy1978

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2013
Messages
1,037
Location
Scarborough
Has Rose Grove station seen an increase in passenger usage, since it was added to the new Blackburn-Rochdale-Manchester service, in addition to its long-standing Preston to Colne service?


I think there was 1 got off from our carriage yesterday, no-one got on though that I recall.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Has Rose Grove station seen an increase in passenger usage, since it was added to the new Blackburn-Rochdale-Manchester service, in addition to its long-standing Preston to Colne service?

By a bit of random googling, I found the diagram below showing how the curve fits in with the greater network (this in itself raises an interesting point in that a high proportion of the on-line rail network maps, that include Todmorden, are now inaccurate).

a60b7582-079a-11e5-9-TmF87.png

Thank you! That clears things in my mind - I understand it now :)
 

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
Visited Todmorden today.

If you were a stranger, you wouldn't get much of an impression that the new curve exists or even that there is an option for catching trains to Burnley (and beyond).

A lot of the signage/information material pre dates the opening, photo below is typical:

That sign is relatively new, until a couple of years ago there was a sign there indicating "Trains to Rochdale, Manchester & Liverpool"!
 

Sox

Member
Joined
22 Oct 2010
Messages
265
Campaign for additional station?

Friday 4 September 2015

CAMPAIGNERS have been told that their ambitions for a new railway station between Burnley and Todmorden must be put on ice because of low projected passenger numbers.

Villagers in Cornholme and Portsmouth had lobbied for the reinstatement of a halt to serve the Calderdale communities, and nearby Cliviger, with hopes renewed by the re-opening of the Todmorden Curve.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/13646727.Bosses_say_train_stop_between_Burnley_and_Todmorden_is_not_a_priority/
 
Last edited:

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,270
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9108250.Cornholme_villagers_bid_for_new_rail_station/

Cornholme villagers bid for new rail station

4:43pm Monday 27th June 2011

A CAMPAIGN has been launched by villagers to open a new railway station halfway between Burnley and Todmorden.

And if the new halt at Cornholme and Portsmouth becomes a reality, the journey time to Manchester for commuters could be as little as 40 minutes.

More than 120 people in the neighbouring communities have so far expressed an interest in the bid for the station, which would be on the Caldervale line between Burnley Manchester Road and Hebden Bridge.

Campaign spokesman Rachel Julian said: “It all started around the discussions to reopen the Todmorden Curve.

“If they are going to restore the curve then this would have clear advantages for people living in this area.”

Questionnaires have been drawn up and have been handed out via Cornholme School, the post office in Burnley Road and nearby general store.

Originally, each of the two villages had its own station, both constructed by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railways company and opened in 1849.

But the Cornholme stop was closed in September 1938 and the Portsmouth station only lasted until July 1958.

The station would be accessible for people living in Cliviger and Worsthorne.

Under the West Yorkshire regional railway plan, a station for the area is listed as an aim.

The posting above was on this thread four years ago in 2011.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
Surely low passenger numbers on the restored services should boost the case for a new station, as (a) there's spare capacity to accommodate the new passengers, and (b) using up that capacity increases revenue generated by said services!
 

Darren R

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2013
Messages
1,252
Location
Lancashire
Surely low passenger numbers on the restored services should boost the case for a new station, as (a) there's spare capacity to accommodate the new passengers, and (b) using up that capacity increases revenue generated by said services!

The trouble is these are just tiny villages we are talking about - the original station at Holme closed as early as 1930. Even in an era when everyone travelled by train, there was insufficient patronage to keep the stations going. The narrow nature of the valley is such that there has been very little expansion of these villages since then.

Additionally, there is the question of cross-border co-operation: the station would be in West Yorkshire, but the trains would be going to Lancashire in one direction and Greater Manchester in the other.

And before anyone has any smart ideas about the Blackpool North to York trains calling at Portsmouth, although it might be fun watching the geographically-impared getting off and looking for the Isle of Wight Ferry Terminal, it's not going to happen! :D
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,223
I live in Todmorden and will mention the signage to my contact at Northern. Burnley and Blackburn - and Dewsbury, for that matter - should be added.

The Blackburn service seems to be loading reasonably well but would do better if it was quicker - i.e. non-stop Rochdale to Manchester. Rose Grove is busier but unfortunately the Manchester service just misses the Colne train in both directions!
 

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
The posting above was on this thread four years ago in 2011.

Its amusing that Todmorden councillors have just been given this news because Cornholme was rejected in a study of 60+ possible new station sites in West Yorkshire published in January 2015 and the 30 passengers a day figure mentioned in the story is included in the report. http://www.wymetro.com/New_Stations_Study.aspx.
 
Last edited:

Sox

Member
Joined
22 Oct 2010
Messages
265
Did the "triangle" on Friday, Tod-BYM-Hebden Bridge-Tod.

Quite a slow journey from BYM to Stansfield Hall Junction, felt like the brakes were stuck on. Tardy due to the "winding nature of the track", was the reason given by the guard. Although I noticed a badly cracked, red brick, retaining wall at one point, which I had assumed was part of the explanation.

Holme tunnel section as smooth as a billiard ball, although 45MPH limit I believe.

Interesting visit to the Fox and Goose at Hebden Bridge, slightly out from the madding crowd, olde worlde style real ale den with a beer garden you access by going "upstairs".
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
The descent from Copy Pit down into Tod always feels very slow and although I haven't done it on a Curve train there is probably approach control at Stansfield Hall to make it even slower. As well as the poor alignment I believe the earthworks are unsuitable for higher speeds - probably the formation itself as well as the bulging retaining wall.
 

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
9,247
Location
Yorkshire
I live in Todmorden and will mention the signage to my contact at Northern. Burnley and Blackburn - and Dewsbury, for that matter - should be added.

The Blackburn service seems to be loading reasonably well but would do better if it was quicker - i.e. non-stop Rochdale to Manchester. Rose Grove is busier but unfortunately the Manchester service just misses the Colne train in both directions!

I noted the plus zero at Rose Grove to Colne - absolutely hopeless. I have Heard it said that there isn't a demand for it...but with a connection like that, there almost certainly won't be!
 

spongsdad

Member
Joined
17 Sep 2013
Messages
160
Given the seemingly inevitable delay in completion of the Farnworth Tunnel enlargement, it seems reasonable to predict that trains from Clitheroe to Manchester via Burnley & Todmorden will continue to run at weekends until well into December.
It will be interesting to see what the load factors will be in the busy period up to Christmas.
Ironically trains couldn't run this route last year, not least because the signalling was incomplete and Northern Rail didn't want to allow possessions which would disrupt the Calder Valley line.
 

Darren R

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2013
Messages
1,252
Location
Lancashire
Did the "triangle" on Friday, Tod-BYM-Hebden Bridge-Tod.

Quite a slow journey from BYM to Stansfield Hall Junction, felt like the brakes were stuck on. Tardy due to the "winding nature of the track", was the reason given by the guard. Although I noticed a badly cracked, red brick, retaining wall at one point, which I had assumed was part of the explanation.

If you are referring to the retaining wall I think you're referring to, I shouldn't worry too much: it's been like that for at least half a century! :lol: It is indicative of the geological instability of the valley though, which was a problem when building the line and remains a problem still.

Regarding connections at Rose Grove to/from Colne: on Saturdays the Colne train is five minutes later leaving Preston and so does connect with the service from Victoria at Rose Grove. I presume there is a reason for this, but I can't see any obvious differences between M-F departures and Saturday departures from Preston that would preclude the weekday services running five minutes later also.

However, there still wouldn't be any connections from Colne to Manchester. This just isn't possible though without completely re-writing the Calder Valley and East Lancashire Line timetables, and even then I'm not sure if it's possible to come up with a 'perfect' timetable.

Bad news for rail supporters, but good news for bus operators.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,270
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
If you are referring to the retaining wall I think you're referring to, I shouldn't worry too much: it's been like that for at least half a century! :lol: It is indicative of the geological instability of the valley though, which was a problem when building the line and remains a problem still.

Was that not the same geological instability that caused the recent works to be effected on the Holme tunnel?
 

Darren R

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2013
Messages
1,252
Location
Lancashire
Was that not the same geological instability that caused the recent works to be effected on the Holme tunnel?

The southern portal of Holme Tunnel is at the meeting point of four geological faults, with the railway following the line of one of these faults closely as far as Todmorden. It marks the boundary of the Millstone Grit to the south and east, and the Westphalian Productive Coal Measures to the west and north.

(I remember when I could read Geological Maps without needing a magnifying glass! :()
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,229
Location
Greater Manchester
Regarding connections at Rose Grove to/from Colne: on Saturdays the Colne train is five minutes later leaving Preston and so does connect with the service from Victoria at Rose Grove. I presume there is a reason for this, but I can't see any obvious differences between M-F departures and Saturday departures from Preston that would preclude the weekday services running five minutes later also.

However, there still wouldn't be any connections from Colne to Manchester. This just isn't possible though without completely re-writing the Calder Valley and East Lancashire Line timetables, and even then I'm not sure if it's possible to come up with a 'perfect' timetable.

Bad news for rail supporters, but good news for bus operators.
Yes, I travelled from Manchester to Colne and back today and was a bit miffed to find that the quickest rail route is still via Preston not Tod. Quicker still was to take the X43 Witch Way bus from Manchester to Burnley bus station, followed by a leisurely stroll across the town centre for the train from Central to Colne. It is a bit ironic that, although the bus is in competition with the railway, it actually provides better connectivity by virtue of the 15 minute frequency.

However, I found that the ride of the much-vaunted "high quality" double deckers was much rougher, bouncier and rattlier than that of any Pacer - even on the motorway, let alone the cobbles of Rawtenstall! And, while the leather seats are admittedly more comfortable than most of Northern Rail's offerings, their high backs greatly impair the view of any passengers who wish to admire the Lancashire countryside from the upper deck, rather than avail themselves of the (very sluggish) wi-fi.

From my limited observations, the bus does not seem to attract many through Manchester-Burnley passengers off peak. In both directions, it was virtually all change at Rawtenstall.
 

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
9,247
Location
Yorkshire
Yes, I travelled from Manchester to Colne and back today and was a bit miffed to find that the quickest rail route is still via Preston not Tod. Quicker still was to take the X43 Witch Way bus from Manchester to Burnley bus station, followed by a leisurely stroll across the town centre for the train from Central to Colne. It is a bit ironic that, although the bus is in competition with the railway, it actually provides better connectivity by virtue of the 15 minute frequency.

However, I found that the ride of the much-vaunted "high quality" double deckers was much rougher, bouncier and rattlier than that of any Pacer - even on the motorway, let alone the cobbles of Rawtenstall! And, while the leather seats are admittedly more comfortable than most of Northern Rail's offerings, their high backs greatly impair the view of any passengers who wish to admire the Lancashire countryside from the upper deck, rather than avail themselves of the (very sluggish) wi-fi.

From my limited observations, the bus does not seem to attract many through Manchester-Burnley passengers off peak. In both directions, it was virtually all change at Rawtenstall.

I quite enjoyed the Witch Way X43 the couple of times I have been on it, though being sat right at the front may have helped. I also didn't find the WiFi too bad either
 

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
9,247
Location
Yorkshire
Meanwhile, at Accrington where I visited on Friday, the signage states Manchester as an option from the Colne bound platform! I will upload a picture later

As said :)
 

Attachments

  • Accrington.jpg
    Accrington.jpg
    171.9 KB · Views: 88
Last edited:

Flying Claret

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2014
Messages
193
A brief update on the pax numbers. I caught the 12.28 from accy to BMR . There were plently aboard already whilst a good number joined at accy. It filled up at Burnley. Everyone off to manc for the day out. Good to see.
 

wasi

Member
Joined
5 Feb 2014
Messages
29
Finally did the Burnley > Todmorden > Manchester route yesterday. Granted it was a Monday afternoon at 3pm.... So the train was pretty quiet.... and 15 minutes late.

......BUT I have to say the service itself was superb. Right into Victoria in under an hour for £9 return.....Fantastic :)

I know I wont ever take the bus again !

As for the return journey just before 6pm, the train ( a 3 car service) was extremely busy up until Todmorden..... But a good number of people including myself got off at Burnley Manchester Road. Superb to see the difference it is already making to the area.

Now all we need is Colne > Skipton to be re-instated ...... We can all dream ;)
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,270
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Finally did the Burnley > Todmorden > Manchester route yesterday. Granted it was a Monday afternoon at 3pm.... So the train was pretty quiet.... and 15 minutes late.......BUT I have to say the service itself was superb. Right into Victoria in under an hour for £9 return.....Fantastic :)

I know I wont ever take the bus again !

An interesting posting based upon a mid-afternoon rail journey from Burnley with a hourly rail service journey being 15 minutes late which in your words was "pretty quiet". You did not say what rolling stock was provided for that journey.

I too have made a similar journey on the Lancashire Witch X43 bus from Burnley Manchester Road station that departed ON TIME at 1456 and arrived at Manchester, Victoria Street, next to Manchester Victoria station at 1601, a time of 65 minutes. The return price on the bus was quoted as £9.00 for a day trip.

So at that time of the day, I had the choice of a 15-minute bus service on a most modern bus with wi-fi and comfortable seating.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top