Toilet Retention Tanks. Why bother?

[158747]

Just look out of the window, see that brown stuff up the end of the carriage and all over the door (and that cloud of spray from the other end of the train whilst you're heading along)?
The brown grime on the outside of railway vehicles is mostly caused by brake dust.

 

[najaB]

The brown grime on the outside of railway vehicles is mostly caused by brake dust.

But not exclusively.

 

[GW43125]

But not exclusively.

Yes, brake dust bound by human effluence which makes a lovely cloud...

 

[AY1975]

Class 317 EMUs when first built, Mark 3 sleeping cars, and 319s had conventional train toilets, rather than vacuum toilets as found on most trains built in recent years, but with retention tanks. (The 317s later had their tanks removed in favour of flushing onto the track when the units were transferred away from the rather aptly named "BedPan" route, but that meant when Thameslink had some 317s on hire, they had to have signs asking passengers not to use the toilets between King's Cross Thameslink and Moorgate.)

Would it perhaps have been better to have stuck with conventional toilets with retention tanks? AFAIK incidents of toilets of this type stopping working were relatively rare compared to vacuum toilets, and they did not have sensors that make them automatically lock out when the sensors think the tanks are full even if they are not actually full.

Then again, I suppose the powers-that-be regard conventional retention toilets as yesterday's technology. Also, I guess they used more water than a vacuum toilet.

 

[jon0844]

Didn't the 317s get the tanks re-fitted later?

 

[BestWestern]

You've opened the doors on a HST? Ever wondered what the brown stuff on your fingers is?

I'm sorry, but that's wibble! It's the same 'brown stuff' that coats the underside and body of any train that isn't fresh out of the paintshop, i.e. dirt! The stuff that comes out of the lavs isn't brown, it's full of white flecks of bog roll and is easily spotted!

 

[whhistle]

...but any Mk3 stock retained after 2020 will have to have them fitted.

No they won't.
The government will break their own procedure and allow them to run after that date without the modifications.

 

[yorksrob]

Class 317 EMUs when first built, Mark 3 sleeping cars, and 319s had conventional train toilets, rather than vacuum toilets as found on most trains built in recent years, but with retention tanks. (The 317s later had their tanks removed in favour of flushing onto the track when the units were transferred away from the rather aptly named "BedPan" route, but that meant when Thameslink had some 317s on hire, they had to have signs asking passengers not to use the toilets between King's Cross Thameslink and Moorgate.)

Would it perhaps have been better to have stuck with conventional toilets with retention tanks? AFAIK incidents of toilets of this type stopping working were relatively rare compared to vacuum toilets, and they did not have sensors that make them automatically lock out when the sensors think the tanks are full even if they are not actually full.

Then again, I suppose the powers-that-be regard conventional retention toilets as yesterday's technology. Also, I guess they used more water than a vacuum toilet.

I agree entirely with your point about retention tanks being more reliable then vacuum ones. Up here they're replacing conventional tanks on 158's with vacuum ones, rather foolishly IMO.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I agree entirely with your point about retention tanks being more reliable then vacuum ones. Up here they're replacing conventional tanks on 158's with vacuum ones, rather foolishly IMO.

158s weren’t originally fitted with retention tanks.

 

[yorksrob]

158s weren’t originally fitted with retention tanks.

Ours were retro-fitted a few years back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree entirely with your point about retention tanks being more reliable then vacuum ones. Up here they're replacing conventional tanks on 158's with vacuum ones, rather foolishly IMO.

The downside of traditional tanks is that they need to be bigger.

 

[randyrippley]

The problem with retention tanks is that I find I now have to buy tomato plants as there are fewer free ones along the line.
I find the shop-bought ones need more fertiliser as well, so they work out even more expensive

 

[driver_m]

I'd go along with the others that I appreciate not having to inspect the filthy underside of a mk3 coach when I used to prep them on depot .You'd be surprised at how many staff were exposed to this .Not just p/way staff but drivers, shunters, fitters, Guards when helping out on unplanned duties etc. Doing a rotation test was no fun when someone decides to then empty the bog.

 

[hexagon789]

Ours were retro-fitted a few years back.

The ScotRail ones were fitted a few years back as well.

 

[Ploughman]

How many people here have picked apple and brambles etc alongside a railway line?

 

[adamedwards]

A particular joy at Hatfield is when a down fast come though with the canted curve pointing the HST loos at commuters on platform 1. It is not nice! Retention tanks asap please!

 

[lyndhurst25]

I seem to recall hearing a story that as part of the testing of the new HSTs in the 1970s, buckets of whitewash were flushed down the toilets at 125mph to see where the splatter ended up. I doubt that the door handles escaped a coating. It's something that could be repeated today using that fluorescent dye that is used to detect water leaks, if someone wants to give it a go.

 

[Chris Hamilton]

You are welcome to come with me next time I have points maintenance to do and find that one of ScotRail’s units have deposited a fresh and well spread out crap complete with toilet paper all over the point operating equipment. Feel free to get down on your hands and knees, as is required by the job, and really get up close to it, as is required for close visual inspection.

It’s 2018. It was acceptable back in the day, but not any more.

 

[mark-h]

Do the mk4 coaches have traditional toilets with tanks rather than a vacuum system (they seem to flush like a normal domestic toilet)? They don't have the best reputation for not spraying out brown water.

 

[yorksrob]

Do the mk4 coaches have traditional toilets with tanks rather than a vacuum system (they seem to flush like a normal domestic toilet)? They don't have the best reputation for not spraying out brown water.

They do.

Not an infallible solution in all circumstances, but a better compromise than 'logs' on the track or toilets that lock themselves out of use at the drop of a hat.

 

[mikey9]

Well done OP - you asked a question - and we have all had the opportunity to be educated.
I certainly learned a lot.

And well done all those who contributed to the process of education (without resorting to slagging the OP for asking the question)
Please remember - we all come from a knowledge different start point, and what is obvious to you - is perhaps one of the hidden secrets tot he rest of the population).

 

[jon0844]

A particular joy at Hatfield is when a down fast come though with the canted curve pointing the HST loos at commuters on platform 1. It is not nice! Retention tanks asap please!

It's not really a problem for the HSTs. It's more a problem for the Mk4s that DO have tanks, but they overflow and 'spill' when going around tight curves, such as this one.

As it sprays from a higher level, it covers people a lot easier and I'd hate to think how much bacteria there is on the counter of Chuggs. It's in the firing line many times a day because VTEC doesn't empty the tanks often enough (nor did DOR or GNER - this problem goes way back). It will only get solved when these trains go.

 

[yorksrob]

It's not really a problem for the HSTs. It's more a problem for the Mk4s that DO have tanks, but they overflow and 'spill' when going around tight curves, such as this one.

As it sprays from a higher level, it covers people a lot easier and I'd hate to think how much bacteria there is on the counter of Chuggs. It's in the firing line many times a day because VTEC doesn't empty the tanks often enough (nor did DOR or GNER - this problem goes way back). It will only get solved when these trains go.

I disagree. Surely it must be possible to direct the overflow downwards, so that any spray at the very least occurs from a lower level.

Caught a nice modern 333 this afternoon. Needless to say, the single vacuum toilet for four carriages was out of use in the middle of the day - not much cop when few of the stations have loo's.

Even worse was a recent visit to the Shepperton branch in South West London. Not only did the trains not have toilets (455's) but neither did the station have a gents, even though it seemed to be staffed most of the day and had a disabled bog.

How do these companies get away with it !

 

[Spartacus]

Personally I'm in favour of some sort of controlled emissions, there seems to be a general upsurge in people 'going' on trains after the loo has locked itself out when the tank is full, and it's not just limited to late night drunks either. I know I've been on trains when the only loo has been out of service for some reason, and other times when I've unexpectedly HAD to go, thankfully never the twain has met.