TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[modernrail]

Is there any provision in the contract for any add-on orders?

I would be amazed if they don't end up at 6 carriages across the fleet. Hopefully TPE will not give away cheap advance fares at peak times. There will be a reasonable amount of spare capacity at some off peak services for these fares. They will need all the capacity they can get at peak times.

Any 6th carriage could have one of the new seating systems where it is high capacity leaning during the peaks and then bike space and some seats at the weekends. I have been on quite a few services in Europe with a carriage like this and it seems to work well.

 

[Spartacus]

Personally, I think there is something in this. Formerly of the Brighouse parish, I can attest to the annoyance felt about how difficult it was to get to places like Wakefield by public transport and it's actually a bugger by road as well, the A644 is painful. Grand Central does if in 19 minutes. It is 40 minutes by car. Other than the odd Grand Central service the journey time is an hour by rail. Diverting some of the Wakefield - York traffic from already rammed XC services through Leeds has appeal. It takes an hour to get from Castleford to York by train, half that by car. Could it be done in half an hour by rail the more direct route? These timings feel like they would be such an improvement that people would use the service, even with a reasonably infrequent service.

I suspect the best option would be some form of Northern Connect type of service: Wakefield certainly does need some sort of transpennine link. Relying on a connection at Mirfield isn't great if you want the upper Calder valley too.

I think we're getting quite off topic now, so back to Mk5as, which should be approaching York from Scarborough now.

 

[BucksBones]

I would be amazed if they don't end up at 6 carriages across the fleet. Hopefully TPE will not give away cheap advance fares at peak times. There will be a reasonable amount of spare capacity at some off peak services for these fares. They will need all the capacity they can get at peak times.

Any 6th carriage could have one of the new seating systems where it is high capacity leaning during the peaks and then bike space and some seats at the weekends. I have been on quite a few services in Europe with a carriage like this and it seems to work well.

Ah! I’ve got an idea....

 

[sjpowermac]

The bill is wending its way to your inbox as we speak!

...and the reproduction fees for the photographer are coming right back in the other direction

Seriously though, thank you to the mods and those who have given info, it’s all greatly appreciated

 

[sjpowermac]

Thank you again to all those supplying advanced info, greatly appreciated.

Pic here of 05:34 Scarborough to MID, 68024 on the rear:

https://flic.kr/p/RdsvtR

And here:

 

[sjpowermac]

Video here:

 

[Spartacus]

Moving to 6 car Mk5s would be costly as you'd end up with doors off platforms at certain stations. An eastbound at Dewsbury with the loco leading for instance would leave most of the DT off the end of the platform behind and might be too long to enable it to be overtaken as well depending on track circuits.

 

[sjpowermac]

Final offering of 05:34 Scarborough to MID here:

 

[sjpowermac]

Moving to 6 car Mk5s would be costly as you'd end up with doors off platforms at certain stations. An eastbound at Dewsbury with the loco leading for instance would leave most of the DT off the end of the platform behind and might be too long to enable it to be overtaken as well.

I wonder about depots too, are York and Scarborough being set up for six coaches? If not then the idea probably won’t fly.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is there any provision in the contract for any add-on orders?

The only provision is for additional class 397 units, which was at least partially reliant on Transpennine North electrification being confirmed and an option that should have been exercised by last year.

Transpennine could of course negotiate a deal for additional mark 5s commercially, assuming they were willing to take the hit on additional lease, track access and maintenance charges against their pre-agreed revenue, subsidy and premium payment profiles. Plus with bar couplers within the mark 5 sets I don't think they're intended to be easily chopped and changed.

Plus there are train length limitations as described above.

 

[Ben Bow]

Whilst it is really good to see the mk.5 sets out and about on the TPE network, it is concerning that the mileage accumulation runs on the Manchester-Carlisle-Bletchley-Manchester circuit have all but dried up - only one run (last Monday) over the last two weeks. Time is really pressing.

 

[mikemcniven]

Interesting point I've just spotted, on the TPE website they have now removed the reference for 'Spring 2019' for introduction into service, instead they are now just saying 2019

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/the-nova-fleets/nova-3

@Ben Bow in relation to the testing they've been doing more runs unto Scarborough lately instead of the MID - Carlisle - Crewe - MID runs

 

[Ben Bow]

Why can't testing and mileage accumulation be done at the same time? There are 13 sets to get done eventually, the pace needs to pick up if we are to see them enter service this year. Releasing crews for training will become much more difficult once the summer holiday season starts.

 

[Sleeperwaking]

Why can't testing and mileage accumulation be done at the same time? There are 13 sets to get done eventually, the pace needs to pick up if we are to see them enter service this year. Releasing crews for training will become much more difficult once the summer holiday season starts.

Maybe you've answered your own question - some tests have to be done on specific routes, such as the service route. So if they are combining fault free running with testing over the service routes, then you would expect the Bletchley runs to drop in number.

 

[Ben Bow]

As I understand it mileage accumulation is separate from the testing over the routes to be operated. The former is just proving that the trains themselves are fit for acceptance by TPE. The urgent need is to get some sets available to TPE for crew training to start. You can do all the testing you want, but without fully trained up crews they aren't going anywhere. The longer it takes for this process to start, the bigger the problem becomes since in due course there will be a training requirement for 397's and 802's also. Crews can only be stretched so far before the service starts to suffer due to a shortage of available train crews, we've seen it time and time again. I doubt that another summer of cancellations and delays would go down well with TPE's long suffering passengers. As usual when things aren't going well, TPE have gone into 'radio silence' mode.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Repeat post:-

Slightly off topic but involving Nova 3, is there any more information on the Mk5a sets being used in the future on what at the moment is EMT (East Midland Trains) services from Liverpool to Norwich via Warrington Central but terminating at Nottingham, I believe. All down to Dft and Co. actually making some sort of desision!!
If that happens Class 185s can be doubled up on other services.
Mk5a sets cannot really be lengthened on North Trans-Pennine routes but perhaps could via the South.

 

[sjpowermac]

As I understand it mileage accumulation is separate from the testing over the routes to be operated. The former is just proving that the trains themselves are fit for acceptance by TPE. The urgent need is to get some sets available to TPE for crew training to start. You can do all the testing you want, but without fully trained up crews they aren't going anywhere. The longer it takes for this process to start, the bigger the problem becomes since in due course there will be a training requirement for 397's and 802's also. Crews can only be stretched so far before the service starts to suffer due to a shortage of available train crews, we've seen it time and time again. I doubt that another summer of cancellations and delays would go down well with TPE's long suffering passengers. As usual when things aren't going well, TPE have gone into 'radio silence' mode.

I wonder if the down time in mileage accumulation is to allow engineers some time to rectify problems that have already come to light? There’s not much point in sending a set out if it’s already known to have problems. There was a hint on the thread last week that some of the problems *might* be related to the CAF kit on the Class 68, or maybe I read too much into that.

In addition, I passed the both York and Scarborough depots this week and neither looked anywhere near like ready for service, so I think it’s reasonable to suppose initial diagrams will be out and back from a Liverpool.

 

[sjpowermac]

Repeat post:-

Slightly off topic but involving Nova 3, is there any more information on the Mk5a sets being used in the future on what at the moment is EMT (East Midland Trains) services from Liverpool to Norwich via Warrington Central but terminating at Nottingham, I believe. All down to Dft and Co. actually making some sort of desision!!
If that happens Class 185s can be doubled up on other services.
Mk5a sets cannot really be lengthened on North Trans-Pennine routes but perhaps could via the South.

I think before making plans for Nova 3 on other routes TPE would want to see them in service on their planned routes. Let’s hope the trains are a success, it would be nice to see further orders for 68s plus Mk5a for the route you mentioned.

 

[sjpowermac]

Interesting point I've just spotted, on the TPE website they have now removed the reference for 'Spring 2019' for introduction into service, instead they are now just saying 2019

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/the-nova-fleets/nova-3

@Ben Bow in relation to the testing they've been doing more runs unto Scarborough lately instead of the MID - Carlisle - Crewe - MID runs

Thanks for that Mike. I’m not sure if you read ‘Modern Railways’ but in that magazine Roger Ford always says to mistrust introductions given in terms of seasons, goodnesses knows what he would make of a service introduction given in terms of a year! Let’s hope by 2019 TPE don’t mean 31.12.2019

 

[Ben Bow]

I wonder if the down time in mileage accumulation is to allow engineers some time to rectify problems that have already come to light? There’s not much point in sending a set out if it’s already known to have problems. There was a hint on the thread last week that some of the problems *might* be related to the CAF kit on the Class 68, or maybe I read too much into that.

In addition, I passed the both York and Scarborough depots this week and neither looked anywhere near like ready for service, so I think it’s reasonable to suppose initial diagrams will be out and back from a Liverpool.

Yes, you're absolutely correct, there would be no point in sending out trains with known faults, unless it was to test a remedy. It is disappointing that more of these issues weren't picked up on during the weeks of testing in Velim.

 

[EE Andy b1]

I think before making plans for Nova 3 on other routes TPE would want to see them in service on their planned routes.

We all want to see Mk5a sets in service on there planned routes, and we should have seen them by now!! But nobody for sure knows when!!!

CAF and TPE are way behind where they should be with this rolling stock and I'm not just thinking about rail enthusiasts of which I am one but the long suffering passengers.

It was DfT that talked about splitting the EMT Norwich - Liverpool service and I'm sure it was mentioned Nova 3 could be utilised in the future.

Remember the mainly Class 31 hauled 4 coach Liverpool - Norwich services. Better than any Class 158 and EMT ones are probably some of the best.

 

[sjpowermac]

A

We all want to see Mk5a sets in service on there planned routes, and we should have seen them by now!! But nobody for sure knows when!!!

CAF and TPE are way behind where they should be with this rolling stock and I'm not just thinking about rail enthusiasts of which I am one but the long suffering passengers.

It was DfT that talked about splitting the EMT Norwich - Liverpool service and I'm sure it was mentioned Nova 3 could be utilised in the future.

Remember the mainly Class 31 hauled 4 coach Liverpool - Norwich services. Better than any Class 158 and EMT ones are probably some of the best.

Agree all round. At some point in the next year lots of high quality loco hauled stock will be kicking around with nothing to do, 68 plus Mk4 on the routes you mentioned as an interim?

 

[sjpowermac]

Yes, you're absolutely correct, there would be no point in sending out trains with known faults, unless it was to test a remedy. It is disappointing that more of these issues weren't picked up on during the weeks of testing in Velim.

I wonder if the Velim testing was more related to mechanical items and the problems have come from all the ‘fancy’ items like the train management system?

 

[sprinterguy]

It was DfT that talked about splitting the EMT Norwich - Liverpool service and I'm sure it was mentioned Nova 3 could be utilised in the future.

I think that would be entirely dependent on Transpennine North electrification, and the proposed follow-on order of class 397s allowing mark 5 rakes to be cascaded, which in itself would still be no certain thing.

Without that, there's no way that substituting class 185s for brand new mark 5 rakes that had barely been introduced to their planned Scarborough/Middlesbrough routes so that they could operate Liverpool - Nottingham would be seen as palatable.

If Liverpool - Nottingham were to go to TPE, I assume it would be based on TPE retaining additional 185s to operate it.

Agree all round. At some point in the next year lots of high quality loco hauled stock will be kicking around with nothing to do, 68 plus Mk4 on the routes you mentioned as an interim?

There are barely 15 class 68s going spare once the Chiltern and Transpennine contingents are taken into account, and I assume that DRS have work for at least some of them (Including the Scotrail contract in the short term), while there's 22 class 185s that Eversholt seem desperate to find work for, and are currently employed by TPE. I presume that the latter would take precedence.

Remember the mainly Class 31 hauled 4 coach Liverpool - Norwich services. Better than any Class 158 and EMT ones are probably some of the best.

Despite my love of all things loco-hauled, I'm inclined to disagree: The impression I've gained of the scratch rakes that BR formed to operate the likes of Norwich and Cleethorpes services in the early eighties is that they were the most bottom of the barrel stock that BR could scrape up, with low powered locomotives and the grottiest, most worn out coaching stock. EMT's class 158s are cleaner, faster accelerating and offer more seats, which is the most important factor.

Though admittedly, they lack the soul of a temperamental and well worn loco hauled train!

 

[BucksBones]

Despite my love of all things loco-hauled, I'm inclined to disagree: The impression I've gained of the scratch rakes that BR formed to operate the likes of Norwich and Cleethorpes services in the early eighties is that they were the most bottom of the barrel stock that BR could scrape up, with low powered locomotives and the grottiest, most worn out coaching stock. EMT's class 158s are cleaner, faster accelerating and offer more seats, which is the most important factor.

Though admittedly, they lack the soul of a temperamental and well worn loco hauled train!

I’m probably looking through rose tinted glasses but I remember early mk2s with wood panelling, comfy big seats with winged headrests.... and being singularly unimpressed when they were replaced by crush-loaded single 156s!!

 

[nat67]

I have just seen on YouTube that on the 28/2/19 68024 with a Nova set doing a mileage accumulation run had graffiti on the last two Mk5's already

 

[_toommm_]

I have just seen on YouTube that on the 28/2/19 68024 with a Nova set doing a mileage accumulation run had graffiti on the last two Mk5's already

Reported up thread - the set got graffiti'd at Scarborough overnight, although it seems by the emoji that you find it funny?

 

[geoffk]

Reported up thread - the set got graffiti'd at Scarborough overnight, although it seems by the emoji that you find it funny?

Does that mean it will be taken back to York for overnight stabling in future? This is a problem we don't suffer from as much as some our European neighbours, at least on passenger stock, presumably because it's usually kept in securely-fenced depots. Freight wagons are more likely to be targets, also stock on heritage railways.

 

[geoffk]

Whilst it is really good to see the mk.5 sets out and about on the TPE network, it is concerning that the mileage accumulation runs on the Manchester-Carlisle-Bletchley-Manchester circuit have all but dried up - only one run (last Monday) over the last two weeks. Time is really pressing.

I assume the end vehicle is called a DT (Driving Trailer). When in service, will it have a fairing on the end to conceal the cables, coupling etc.?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume the end vehicle is called a DT (Driving Trailer). When in service, will it have a fairing on the end to conceal the cables, coupling etc.?

I don't think so, no.