TPE Nova 1 Class 802/2 Progress

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by NewcastleOne, 20 Dec 2017.

  1. 3973EXL

    3973EXL Member

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  2. IamTrainsYT

    IamTrainsYT Member

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    Saw a few 802s out today:
    802212 1P22 Newcastle to Manchester Airport
    802219 1P24 Newcastle to Manchester airport
    802207 9S13 Liverpool lime street to Edinburgh


     
  3. ValleyLines142

    ValleyLines142 Established Member

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    Had my first journey on one last week on a journey from Manchester Airport to Piccadilly. Must admit they are lovely although being a regular commuter between Cardiff and Bristol Parkway I'm used to the similar 800s. A welcome addition to the TPE fleet and I can imagine these being a blessing in rush hour, particularly between Liverpool and Manchester and Manchester and Leeds.

    I was quite surprised by the little number of 6-car 185s as a result. I honestly thought I'd see a few doubles but they were all singles.
     
  4. SuperNova

    SuperNova Member

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    185's are being used to substitute for some 350's that have gone over to West Midlands on the WCML. Some Hull to Man Pic are 6 car and same with Cleethorpes to Man Air. Currently, 12 new Nova's are scheduled to be in operation on a daily basis, which will go up to 17 tomorrow with more 802's in operation.
     
  5. MML

    MML Member

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    I'm really surprised TPE management believe operating 4 different fleets over such a relatively small franchise is an efficient way to run a TOC. Different maintenance and operating regimes will just add to complexity and cost. And this is so unnecessary. Having different drivers qualified for each fleet is adding to operational complexity and increased training costs. It looks an operational mess to be honest.

    A fleet of 185 and electric/bi-mode 800 series trains would have been ideal.
    No need for the 397s or the fleet of 68 locos with Mk5 coaches. The result appears to be too many depots, too many different fleets and lack of flexibility to the complexity of fleet. Higher overall cost of operation.
     
  6. SuperNova

    SuperNova Member

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    As has been explained on here before, this was due to requiring capacity ASAP. To have been delivered an entire fleet for 802's would've taken until 2021 at the earliest and if you go to Leeds at rush hour on any day, you can see why that extra capacity was required asap. Had the DfT back in the 2000's allowed 185's to be 4 car, then it may not have been quite an issue and 802's would've been the fleet of choice.

    Unfortunately, CAF have delivered their product very late as the Mk5a's were due in summer 2018 so capacity has remained a large issue. Still - 802's make little sense operating to Scarborough or Middlesbrough given how little time under wires they would spend.
     
  7. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

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    Really? Where was the depot on the west side that could maintain 802s? Hitachi would have had to take over Longsight if they had gone 802 for all the new stock. As it is, Longsight hasn't had to learn 802s and can concentrate in the CAF fleets.

    As for different traincrew learning different stock, is that actually more training or just different groups being split up. Yes, the relevant training staff need to be split but the traincrew themselves only need to know one set of stock and go through one training process.
     
  8. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

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    2 397, 6 802, 4 68 to 2 397, 11 802, 4 68 from tomorrow or some other combination?
     
  9. SuperNova

    SuperNova Member

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    Like that. 397 diagrams to increase soon too.
     
  10. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    How many Newcastle services will still be 185s (or more precisely, not 802s)?
     
  11. SuperNova

    SuperNova Member

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    4 diagrams are 802
     
  12. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

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  13. 3973EXL

    3973EXL Member

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    5X98 HT 802304 TPE 802205
     
  14. Class455

    Class455 Member

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    There are now no IET's at Eastleigh for the time being partly as a result of the derailment
     
  15. 7522

    7522 Member

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    802212 From York to Newcastle today. Acceleration very impressive on electric, particularly noticeable when leaving stations. I hope they are going to get the electronic reservations working soon as these are far better and clearer than paper. I'm guessing this issue is likely to continue until all the 185's have been phased out.
     
  16. a_c_skinner

    a_c_skinner Established Member

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    Yes, same here. The idea that CAF would deliver quickly has proved an illusion. Newton Aycliffe is emptying out, let alone their Italian and Japanese factories and the 68/Mk5 solution is going to prove eccentric at best, probably not even capable of easy additional vehicles. The UK needs a rolling stock strategy not tactical skirmishing
     
  17. Tim_UK

    Tim_UK Member

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    I spend a lot of time right by the transpennine route.

    What you realise about the 802 is how quiet they are, on diesel, under power up hill. You know when a 185 is going past, loud. And you know when a 68 is going past, same loudness, but you can hear from further away.

    The 802, you can look up and see it disappearing having been past you.

    I've still not ended up riding on one though.
     
  18. tpjm

    tpjm Member

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    Up to two additional vehicles can be added to the Mk5a rakes. Given the current (and any likely infrastructure) this should be sufficient on the routes they will work for the foreseeable.

    We might one day see platforms that are long enough for 7 coach Mk5a/ Cl802s!
     
  19. a_c_skinner

    a_c_skinner Established Member

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    Thanks, mixed up there. In that case they've ordered them too short! My fear is that we have a huge amount of demand supressed by overloading that will slowly be revealed on all TPE routes with all three Nova series.
     
  20. Spartacus

    Spartacus Established Member

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    No point ordering trains that are too long for a number of platforms, where sometimes signal placing would need altering, not just platform lengthening. It's easy forgotten that a 5 car 802 is only around 10m shorter than two 3 car 185s, and has more seats.
     
  21. a_c_skinner

    a_c_skinner Established Member

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    My pessimism a somewhat allayed, don't forget in my Hornby catalog of 1965 everything was the same length! I still fear the current buy won't satisfy latent demand especially as we exert downwards pressure on car travel. A little off topic your other point is the railway trap, the view that there is no point doing X because of Y and then we find no point in sorting out Y because we've not done X.
     
  22. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    The elephant in the room is being ignored. We are seeing uneven growth in passenger numbers, the overall increase disguising some very big increases in local areas.

    We know overall numbers have more than doubled over the last 20 years. Many stations have tripled numbers in that time. We buy trains with a life expectancy of 30 years.

    Imagine tripling of demand over the next 30 years!

    Further increases in demand are being stifled by lack of capacity evidenced in over crowded trains. HS2 won't help most of them. Building fixed units of 2,3,4,5 cars to work in multiple without through corridor connection isn't ideal. A train of 5 may be too short, but 10 is too long.

    We need to be making it easier to extend train lengths without doubling. The challenge of fitting longer trains into short platforms is increasingly apparent. Manchester Airport is already unable to accept all the trains operators want to stop there. That's a very conspicuous example. We can all see examples of local stations where platform lengthening will be difficult, if not impossible.

    We'll carry on doing a bit here, a bit there. We'll spend billions and in 20-30 years time we'll still have a patched up system operated by a patched together collection of rolling stock. The 800 series of trains may standardise some elements. It will be interesting to see how they all bed down together, with other trains, over those 30 years.
     
  23. Speed43125

    Speed43125 Member

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    The thing is I'm skeptical if the 800 series really is that compatible, 800s and 802s are not permitted to work together on GWR and I suspect there are issues between different subclasses of 802 etc.
    The geography of the North with cities situated all over the place has always resulted in it being tricky to thread railways through it all, especially with so much of the network on viaducts through the dense core of the cities.
     
  24. 3973EXL

    3973EXL Member

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    Last edited: 14 Feb 2020
  25. hibtastic

    hibtastic Member

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    First time on an 802 yesterday between Liverpool and Manchester. They are very nice and a vast improvement. Already booking a Stalybridge to Edinburgh round trip for next month.
     
  26. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

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    Isn't the issue about 800s and 802s working together on GWR contractual rather than technical.

    All sorts of 800s, 801s and 802s have worked together between Eastleigh and Doncaster / Newton Aycliffe / Tyne Yard albeit not with passengers.
     
  27. Speed43125

    Speed43125 Member

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    I recall reading Hitachi engineers were afraid they couldn't communicate with each other properly, or there was a risk under certain circumstances of an issue. But I'll bear your points in mind.
     
  28. gimmea50anyday

    gimmea50anyday Established Member

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    The other week when a HT 802 was on test at Heaton it was coupled to a TPE 802. And both were fully operational. No issues of compatibility there....

    If you look at the side windows of the TPE driving cabs the fading that had been applied to the windows at GWR green coloured as are the cab stickers identifying the unit number. TPE 802s also have ATP isolation switches so to me it's obvious the units are follow on orders and built to GWR spec. Cant see compatibility issues there either. It will be future company specific upgrades that will make the units incompatible
     
  29. SuperNova

    SuperNova Member

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    There's also been an image shared widely on twitter of a TPE 802 coupled to a LNER 800 coming back from Eastleigh
     
  30. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

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    This is a bit "infrastructure-y", but it gives some more detail as to why TPE are having to run their 802s on diesel between Edinburgh & Newcastle.
    https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2020/02/04/azumas-highest-challenge/
     

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