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TPE Nova 1 Class 802/2 Progress

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mallard

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It is starting to look likely that TPE will beat LNER to the "first 80x in passenger service on the ECML" milestone... Which is odd, considering that it's partly signalling compatibility problems on the northern ECML that's apparently holding back the LNER introduction.

TPE still plan to have their ECML service (including the extension to Edinburgh) running with 802s by the end of this year, but LNER don't seem to be planning to have their 800/801 fleet running north of York until next year. Which of them manages to run a passenger service with the new trains first is certainly going to be close...
 
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sprinterguy

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From memory, there is an option for them to be extended to 6 cars though isn't there?
Not that I am aware of for the class 802. The franchise agreement permits an option to be exercised to purchase up to 23 additional 5, 6 or 8-car class 397 EMUs, rather than extension of any existing units: Presumably taking up the full number of additional units would be dependent on the approval of Transpennine North electrification in full.

Though that's not to say that TPE couldn't put together a commercial case themselves for adding an extra carriage at some future point to any of the units currently being delivered. It is worth noting however that the class 802s will already have a higher capacity than TPE's other new fleets.
 

55z

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There is a problem with all 800/802's which will not permit their introduction on LNER/TPEXp, the GW ones will have to be retrofitted. I refer to the wires between coaches which are climbable and H will have to come up with a solution this is besides the signalling problem north of Colton Jn which is currently being fixed by H & Network Rail.
 

superkev

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Presumably the TPE 80x will like the LNER ones be blocked from entering passenger service until the cable ladder issue is resolved to the satisfaction of the safety Taliban. I wonder what they think of this
K
20190108_125537.jpg
 

jh64

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Is it actually possible for you to make a post that doesn't feature the phrase 'Safety Taliban'?
 

superkev

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Is it actually possible for you to make a post that doesn't feature the phrase 'Safety Taliban'?
I think it was a phrase first used by Ian Warmsley in Modern Railways when describing the various safety organisations as he put it "trying to out safe each other" to try achieve intimate safety presumably at infinite cost.
I'm use my persanal favourite I.e. "safety nannys" in future.
K
 

Bletchleyite

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Presumably the TPE 80x will like the LNER ones be blocked from entering passenger service until the cable ladder issue is resolved to the satisfaction of the safety Taliban. I wonder what they think of thisView attachment 57717

It looks like it would be a lot easier to climb the cables on an 800 than that.

All it needs is some sort of canvas or rubber barrier between coaches like LU have. Might help the aerodynamics too, as well as reduce the chance of anyone falling between coaches from the platform.
 

LittleAH

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It is starting to look likely that TPE will beat LNER to the "first 80x in passenger service on the ECML" milestone... Which is odd, considering that it's partly signalling compatibility problems on the northern ECML that's apparently holding back the LNER introduction.

TPE still plan to have their ECML service (including the extension to Edinburgh) running with 802s by the end of this year, but LNER don't seem to be planning to have their 800/801 fleet running north of York until next year. Which of them manages to run a passenger service with the new trains first is certainly going to be close...

Isn't the difference between the 800/1 and 802 that TPE have Hitachi's with an engine under each carriage unlike LNER? So TPE can run their Hitachi's on diesel north of York at 100mph.
 

TBSchenker

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The 802 has a higher rated diesel engine (940hp v 750) and larger fuel tanks, it still only has 3 engines available for power, being the 3 inside vehicles . The 802s for GWR, TPE and HT should be the very same mechanics
 

Spartacus

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Technically they're the same rating, it's the software that extracts the full power rather than being 'electronically de-rated'.
 

modernrail

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So are we saying that TP will need to run on diesel north of York until the signal interference problem is dealt with? If so, what is their max speed on diesel? I always get lost on this point.
 

Spartacus

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The 800s have had a mod to make it the same now, haven't they?

I thought it was just the fuel tanks being replaced with long range 802 tanks due to the reduction in electrification? Getting the full output from the engines would probably cancel that out, but as it's a software thing I don't suppose it would be difficult to do.

As far as I know the signal interference problem is being overcome, it's not like it hasn't affected things in the past and it's always been overcome before.
 

superkev

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engine power per metre length wise, 5-car 800/802s are about 66% of the power of 185s (22hp/m vs. 33), 9-car versions about 62%. There will also be differences to consider with comparative efficiency between the hydraulic transmission on 185s and the electric transmission on 800/802s, as well as the fact that above 30-40mph, the power output of 800s is further reduced by 20%.
Interesting. I hadn't realised 800s had less power than a 185 although hp per ton would be a better measure than hp/m as the 185s are heavy trains. Are the 800s lighter?
I always thought it a pity Hitachi couldn't find a suitable straight horizontal engine rather than a 21litre VEE which would have avoided the step up onto the raised floor.
K
 

kje7812

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Interesting. I hadn't realised 800s had less power than a 185 although hp per ton would be a better measure than hp/m as the 185s are heavy trains. Are the 800s lighter?
I always thought it a pity Hitachi couldn't find a suitable straight horizontal engine rather than a 21litre VEE which would have avoided the step up onto the raised floor.
K
If you trust the numbers on Wikipedia, a 5 car 800 is about 8 tonne lighter per car than a 185. This works out as only 14% lighter.
 

Spartacus

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Assuming a 5 car 802 is the same weight as a 5 car 800 I work it out that an 802 has 86.56% of the hp/t compared to a 185, each 185 vehicle being on average 7.5 tonnes heavier than an 800 despite being shorter.
 

modernrail

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I thought it was just the fuel tanks being replaced with long range 802 tanks due to the reduction in electrification? Getting the full output from the engines would probably cancel that out, but as it's a software thing I don't suppose it would be difficult to do.

As far as I know the signal interference problem is being overcome, it's not like it hasn't affected things in the past and it's always been overcome before.
I am sure it is, but the question is when the fix will be in place. TPE needs to get its units into service quickly to deal with overcrowding. If their Hitachis can run on diesel for now then that is a blessing, except for the emissions obviously but that at least will be temporary. It would also be an unplanned benefit of opting for bi-modes. They will have passed the resilience test from the off!
 
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