TPE set to run Manchester-Scotland services

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Max

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From tpexpress.co.uk

TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS SET TO RUN SERVICES TO SCOTLAND
Following discussions with the Department for Transport, it was announced today that TransPennine Express (TPE) would, subject to contract, be operating trains between Manchester and Glasgow/Edinburgh, starting in December 2007.
The news means that TPE services running on its North West route will be extended to run to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

The proposal will mean an overall increase in direct services between Manchester and Scotland. In addition, new direct links to Manchester Airport will be created from stations north of Oxenholme.

Vernon Barker, managing director of TransPennine Express, said: “We are delighted to be able to extend the reach of our network to offer more through journey opportunities to and from Manchester Airport.”

TransPennine Express will use new Class 185 diesel trains on the services to Scotland. A 51-strong fleet of new trains is currently being introduced to its network in a £250 million investment in new rolling stock.

Services between Manchester and Scotland will operate to similar journey times as those currently provided.

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This seems ridiculous - using 100 mph trains on a newly upgraded 125 mph line - what a joke! And I hardly see how this will produce 'similar' journey times with substandard speeds and more calling points. I think the idea of TPE having these services is good, but using 185s is just silly. They are noisy, have no proper catering facilities and use suburban style doors.
 
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The Snap

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I like the idea, although it does have its downfalls.
Although direct Virgin series to Scotland and Edinburgh from Manchester are not very frequent, they do it in around 3 hrs 30. Doing it with 185s and having them stop more would surely make it take around 4 to 4 hrs 30??
I love the 185s, they rock, but for this, I think perhaps new investments should be made into perhaps Meridians or other High Speed Train stock?
 

Max

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I like the idea, although it does have its downfalls.
Although direct Virgin series to Scotland and Edinburgh from Manchester are not very frequent, they do it in around 3 hrs 30. Doing it with 185s and having them stop more would surely make it take around 4 to 4 hrs 30??
I love the 185s, they rock, but for this, I think perhaps new investments should be made into perhaps Meridians or other High Speed Train stock?
Yes, I do think they are pretty good at what they were designed for, but they simply aren't designed for such long distance journeys.
 
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I have a sneeky suspicion that first group will try to get more "suitable" units for the route, does the start date of December 2007 not ring any bells of some other big change reguarding rolling stock ?
 

Gizmogle

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Long journeys on 185s don't sound too fun. The auto announcement thing is just annoying. I couldn't stand that all the way upto Scotland.
What's the point anyway if Virgin already do it? TPE aren't gonna manage to be faster or more comfortable than Virgin trains if you ask me. Although, I guess they're cheaper. Hmmm...
 

David

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To clear some of the confusion, It is rumoured that FGW will be getting rid of some units at the start of the December 07 timetable. At the same time, VXC will stop running North of Preston or Carlisle, and TPE will run upto Scotland instead. It is also rumoured that TPE will be getting the surplus units from FGW to run the Manchester - Scotland services.
 
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What's the point anyway if Virgin already do it?
Virgin Trains need the 221's for their West Coast Railway Holyhead Services so the route needs to go to someone, FTPE just seemed to be the easiest option due to it already operatinf its North West Route on the WCML as far as Oxenholm Lake District
 

paul1609

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From tpexpress.co.uk
d.

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This seems ridiculous - using 100 mph trains on a newly upgraded 125 mph line - what a joke! And I hardly see how this will produce 'similar' journey times with substandard speeds and more calling points. I think the idea of TPE having these services is good, but using 185s is just silly. They are noisy, have no proper catering facilities and use suburban style doors.
Is very much of Manchester to Scotland cleared for 125 mph operation by Voyagers? the 185s have similar power to the voyagers and the lower gear ratios would make them faster from the stops and speed restrictions.
 

Max

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Is very much of Manchester to Scotland cleared for 125 mph operation by Voyagers? the 185s have similar power to the voyagers and the lower gear ratios would make them faster from the stops and speed restrictions.
I thought 221/2s had the best acceleration on the network.
 

ChrisCooper

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Acceleration is a figure that doesn't tend to mean that much though, since different trains will accelerate better or worse at different speed ranges. The 222s AFAIK are overall the fastest accelerating trains, but will still be beaten at certain speeds. Compare one pulling away to a London Underground train, or even a suburban EMU like a 315. The 47 hauled services the Voyagers replaced could give a Voyager a good run up to a certain speed aswell, although they had less power than a 4 car Voyager, but probably weighed twice as much, and were no match at higher speeds. On the other hand, above 125mph a Eurostar would easily out accelerate a Voyager (which would be above top speed not 60mph below it). As far as the comparision between Voyagers and 185s, a 185 should be faster pulling away from stations, but would have a lower top speed and would be slower reaching higher speeds. I'd still expect a 185 to reach 100mph before a Voyager though. Oviously, as far as journey times go the line speeds and calling pattern are a big factor. On a 100mph line with lots of stations, a 185 would be best, wheras on a line with lots of 125mph running and long distances between stations a Voyager would be best. As far as Manchester to Glasgow goes, I don't think there is a lot of, if any, none EPS 125mph running, and I expect the service will call at more stations than the current service, so 185s should be well suited. Oviously the 221s with tilt would be able to travel at higher speeds on a lot of sections, but they have lower acceleration due to the extra weight (10t per coach), so in many cases loose the advantage over 220s. One other factor is that on hilly routes like this, balencing speed is important, so having a higher top speed isn't an advantage if you can't maintain it up the hills, although higher top speed becomes an advantage when decending, even on a train with poorer acceleration.
 

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185s should be just about perfect. They fly like s*** of a shovel when pulling away from a station, and they can do Manchester Piccadilly - Stockport in just under 6 minutes. A time (I'm led to believe) that 220/1/2s can't match.
 

xtradj

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good idea

but alot of people would travel virgin wigan preston - scotland

its ok for people travelling from the airport and manchester, but areas further north you'd rather be on a virgin, which id expect would pass the tpe's on the fast line

the train isnt comfortable enough for a long journey 185's and no doubt they'd stop at more stations than the virgins

i may be biased, but i see more use of tpe running a lime street - scotland service

the number of people i know who travel on a stopper train from lime-street to wigan to connect with a virgin to go north, and the amount of people who hate it, as its very uncomfortable and takes a while

a fast tpe lpool - st helens - wigan - preston - north would surely be a better idea, as virgin xc go to scotland twice a day, and offer tpe services to oxenholme for connections to scotland
 

Ascot

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end of the day i would rather go on a 185 than a 220 even if it ment an extra half an hr. Apart from the fact i now hate Virgin as of recent events, 185s have that bit of room so your not packed into a tin can. Then again if TPE are also doing nice cheap tickets then more people will be doing the cheaper options for the time. Still where's the transPENNINE bit?
 

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185s should be just about perfect. They fly like s*** of a shovel when pulling away from a station, and they can do Manchester Piccadilly - Stockport in just under 6 minutes. A time (I'm led to believe) that 220/1/2s can't match.
They do indeed:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-253633931943428681

The back coach sounds worrying though! :shock:

Anyway, I think 185s on the route is a good idea, I really CBA to write a reason at the minute, but basically what david said ;)

Jordy :sleepy2:
 

Julian G

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if we look at the Northern Line

1959TS vs 1995TS Plastic Misery
The 1959TS accelerate/decelerate more slower than the 95TS

now the Victoria Line
67TS vs 09TS Plastic B*tch
According to Metronot, they state that the '09TS will accelerate and decelerate much more faster, i'm not sure about the seats though, pretty flat to me, '67 can be severly rocky at 45mph (which is great for me! Oxford Circus-Green Park is the rocky part)

now the Centra Line
62TS vs 92TS Plastic Scrapheap
We can see that the C.line had the modernisation project even when the 62TS still ran, but the 92TS have cut journey times and doesn't provide a comfortable ride, when you had 62Ts, you had to get used to all that jumping around as the train kept jumping up and down on the track
 

metrocammel

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if we look at the Northern Line

1959TS vs 1995TS Plastic Misery
The 1959TS accelerate/decelerate more slower than the 95TS

now the Victoria Line
67TS vs 09TS Plastic B*tch
According to Metronot, they state that the '09TS will accelerate and decelerate much more faster, i'm not sure about the seats though, pretty flat to me, '67 can be severly rocky at 45mph (which is great for me! Oxford Circus-Green Park is the rocky part)

now the Centra Line
62TS vs 92TS Plastic Scrapheap
We can see that the C.line had the modernisation project even when the 62TS still ran, but the 92TS have cut journey times and doesn't provide a comfortable ride, when you had 62Ts, you had to get used to all that jumping around as the train kept jumping up and down on the track
That is all very well Gaje, but is completely irrelevant!

Long journeys on 185s don't sound too fun. The auto announcement thing is just annoying. I couldn't stand that all the way upto Scotland.
What's the point anyway if Virgin already do it? TPE aren't gonna manage to be faster or more comfortable than Virgin trains if you ask me. Although, I guess they're cheaper. Hmmm...
I was talking to the TPE Head of Onboard services earlier today (while on a 185 to from Staly to Mcr),she asked me what I thought of the new trains. I said they are a big improvement of the 158's, but the mentioned the unrealistic-sounding, annoying announcements. She actually said TPE were looking into better sounding (more seamless) announcements.
At the current moment, the announcements sound totally un-human, however they are supposed to be actual TPE employees voices(!). I wonder what they will come up with in the improvements?

end of the day i would rather go on a 185 than a 220 even if it ment an extra half an hr. Apart from the fact i now hate Virgin as of recent events, 185s have that bit of room so your not packed into a tin can. Then again if TPE are also doing nice cheap tickets then more people will be doing the cheaper options for the time. Still where's the transPENNINE bit?

I dont understand the logic of that Mark? As much as I dont like Voyagers, how is replacing a four / five car unit with a 3-car unit, so even though 185's dont have tilt-profiles, when the amount of pax that would normally travel on a 5-car train are packed into 3, the situation is just as bad!! (and if there are two units, there is the age-old problem of aethetics over functionality- NO Bloody gangways!) At the moment TPE's "cheap-tickets" are not good at all. (only fractionally cheaper than buying on the day tickets), so if they continue with the poor AP's on the WCML services, then that will cause problems for people. And yes, surely they must change the franchise name- anybody with an ounce of geographical knowledge knows the WCML doesn't cut through the Pennines (I suppose Shap is the closest you get- but it still isn't officially the Pennines!). As mentioned previously, surely First British Rail is more suitable name!
 

1D53

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At the current moment, the announcements sound totally un-human, however they are supposed to be actual TPE employees voices(!). I wonder what they will come up with in the improvements?
The vast majority are voiced by Angie Hunt - one of the Supervisors at Huddersfield - so they are accurate. They aren't perfect though as we all know and I believe they are to be re-recorded and 'put together' better.
 

xtradj

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i havnt yet travelled on a 185, something im dying to do... however i used to use the 158's TPE lpool - leeds service on a regular basis, it was always packed, train was poor quality and very cramp, however back in the day the 158 was one of my favourite trains

once ive been on a 185 maybe i might agree that they are better than the 220's

what i will say is, ive been on a 220 and i dont see why so many people dont like them. yes the pendolino is a better train, but the 220 to me was very comfortable in business class, and reasonable in standard, plus it tilts and has up2 five cars. the 185 has 3.

i still think at this point the 220 is a far better long distance train than the 185, however once ive been on a 185 i can comment further
 

Ben

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what i will say is, ive been on a 220 and i dont see why so many people dont like them. yes the pendolino is a better train, but the 220 to me was very comfortable in business class, and reasonable in standard, plus it tilts and has up2 five cars.
I think you'll find thats the 221 'Super Voyager'.
 

Mojo

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The 185 might have less coaches, but a 4-Car Voyager has 26 First class & 160 Std class seats, whilst the 185 has 15 First and 168 Std class seats (inc 12 Tipup seats.)
 

xtradj

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The 185 might have less coaches, but a 4-Car Voyager has 26 First class & 160 Std class seats, whilst the 185 has 15 First and 168 Std class seats (inc 12 Tipup seats.)
which prooves the point

185's are better for intercity journeys and commuting with extra seats

220's are better long distance, less seats, more space
 

The Snap

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I think 180s would be nice from Picc to Glasgow, only if they werein TPE neon though :razz:
185s would be nice too, although for 3 hr 30 mins, they will need some more first class accomodation, not just a little area in a coach, for those of us who like to travel in style :razz:.
222s would also be nice...
 
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