Train crew should be required to drive between trains rather than have taxis provided

[Taunton]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/storm-babet-disruption-saturday-21-10.256508/

One wonders why there is crew taxi positioning constantly mentioned.

Every other commercial business has staff doing alternative journeys in their own cars. It's 2023, not 1923, and the vast majority of train crews have their own cars nowadays.

How else do they get to/from their normal daily signing-on point?

 

[InkyScrolls]

One wonders why there is crew taxi positioning constantly mentioned. Every other commercial business has staff doing alternative journeys in their own cars. It's 2023, not 1923, and the vast majority of train crews have their own cars nowadays. How else do they get to/from their normal daily signing-on point?

I think you're missing the point rather.

 

[DDB]

One wonders why there is crew taxi positioning constantly mentioned. Every other commercial business has staff doing alternative journeys in their own cars. It's 2023, not 1923, and the vast majority of train crews have their own cars nowadays. How else do they get to/from their normal daily signing-on point?

My company doesn't generally the use of employees own cars and I suspect they aren't alone. I belive it is so they can be assured the cars used are properly maintained etc as they have come from a reputable hire company.

More importantly car insurance by default doesn't include business use only commuting.

 

[Somewhere]

One wonders why there is crew taxi positioning constantly mentioned. Every other commercial business has staff doing alternative journeys in their own cars. It's 2023, not 1923, and the vast majority of train crews have their own cars nowadays. How else do they get to/from their normal daily signing-on point?

Because a driver will drive themselves to work. Then a taxi will take them to where the train is. When the driver finishes work, it will be where they've parked their car. Or the other way around. Or they may need a taxi from one place to another in the middle of their shift, and be nowhere near where they've parked their car earlier.

 

[Dieseldriver]

One wonders why there is crew taxi positioning constantly mentioned. Every other commercial business has staff doing alternative journeys in their own cars. It's 2023, not 1923, and the vast majority of train crews have their own cars nowadays. How else do they get to/from their normal daily signing-on point?

So when I’ve driven my personal car to a point that’s say 50 miles from my home depot after booking on, how do I get my car back at the end of my shift?

 

[LowLevel]

One wonders why there is crew taxi positioning constantly mentioned. Every other commercial business has staff doing alternative journeys in their own cars. It's 2023, not 1923, and the vast majority of train crews have their own cars nowadays. How else do they get to/from their normal daily signing-on point?

Catch the bus, walk etc. Plenty of traincrew I know don't drive cars at all, in Nottingham you don't need to as the public transport is excellent.

What a daft comment. If I go and pick up a train at Crewe and I finish elsewhere, how do I get my car back? At least provide me a pool car

How long in advance do work need to tell me that I'm actually driving in poor weather to a city 50 miles away? Half an hour?

 

[dk1]

One wonders why there is crew taxi positioning constantly mentioned. Every other commercial business has staff doing alternative journeys in their own cars. It's 2023, not 1923, and the vast majority of train crews have their own cars nowadays. How else do they get to/from their normal daily signing-on point?

To be honest your post hasn't done you any favours and shows you know very little on the subject.

 

[sportzbar]

One wonders why there is crew taxi positioning constantly mentioned. Every other commercial business has staff doing alternative journeys in their own cars. It's 2023, not 1923, and the vast majority of train crews have their own cars nowadays. How else do they get to/from their normal daily signing-on point?

I'm train crew yet I don't drive a car. In fact I dont hold a UK road driving license, I cycle to work roughly 8 miles in all weathers. That's my choice.

But are you seriously suggesting that because its "2023, not 1923" I should use my own transport and cycle from Manchester to Preston (its 03.30 in the morning so no trains to pass on) for my first working? Might take a bit longer than a taxi but hey at least I can put my bike on the train and bring it back for when I finish. Oh and the train might be late because it will take me a bit longer than the accepted 45 min taxi time.....

 

[dk1]

I'm train crew yet I don't drive a car. In fact I dont hold a UK road driving license, I cycle to work roughly 8 miles in all weathers. That's my choice.

But are you seriously suggesting that because its "2023, not 1923" I should use my own transport and cycle from Manchester to Preston (its 03.30 in the morning so no trains to pass on) for my first working? Might take a bit longer than a taxi but hey at least I can put my bike on the train and bring it back for when I finish. Oh and the train might be late because it will take me a bit longer than the accepted 45 min taxi time.....

I don’t think we should take that post seriously. It came across as more of an embarrassing rant than anything.

Ironically it was posted on a perfect day for me. Due to flood damage I was yesterday taxied from Norwich to Ipswich where I was asked to work two return services to London the final one being 1P72 23:30 Liverpool St-Ipswich. During the late evening Network Rail reopened the line at Stowmarket and it was decided this train could continue right through to Norwich where I arrived at 01:22. If I had driven my own car to Ipswich (which I will never do I might hasten to add), it would now be stranded 46 miles away.

 

[skyhigh]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/storm-babet-disruption-saturday-21-10.256508/

One wonders why there is crew taxi positioning constantly mentioned.

Every other commercial business has staff doing alternative journeys in their own cars. It's 2023, not 1923, and the vast majority of train crews have their own cars nowadays.

How else do they get to/from their normal daily signing-on point?

What a stupid post.

I'm sorry but utterly utterly stupid.

I book on at my home station and get a taxi out to the depot to collect the unit. At the end of my shift I'm back at my home station. If I have driven to the depot instead of got a taxi, how do I get back to the car?

Not to mention on several shifts I can come to work via bus or train.

 

[pdq]

Some questions, purely out of interest. Are taxis in this context your usual "Jim's cabs" - or even Uber - and booked as and when? Or will there be a contract with a bigger firm that generally has capacity? Will there be proper SLAs etc in place? Taxi firms don't seem to be operated to the same kinds of contractual requirements that other businesses often operate to. What happens in cases when the operator says nothing available for an hour, which happens to public users now and then?

 

[D6130]

Some questions, purely out of interest. Are taxis in this context your usual "Jim's cabs" - or even Uber - and booked as and when? Or will there be a contract with a bigger firm that generally has capacity? Will there be proper SLAs etc in place? Taxi firms don't seem to be operated to the same kinds of contractual requirements that other businesses often operate to. What happens in cases when the operator says nothing available for an hour, which happens to public users now and then?

In my experience, most traincrew depots have a contract with a particular reputable local taxi firm which will come up for renewal every three years or so....but the contract could be terminated short in the event of a serious incident.

 

[LowLevel]

Some questions, purely out of interest. Are taxis in this context your usual "Jim's cabs" - or even Uber - and booked as and when? Or will there be a contract with a bigger firm that generally has capacity? Will there be proper SLAs etc in place? Taxi firms don't seem to be operated to the same kinds of contractual requirements that other businesses often operate to. What happens in cases when the operator says nothing available for an hour, which happens to public users now and then?

What happens at my TOC is they have a contract with a company who act as a middleman (think Fraser Eagle of yore) with actual taxi firms. They tend to be larger local firms. The fees are stipulated in the contract based on mileage and tend to be less than a normal rate, but that's made up for by the fact that it is effectively guaranteed to be paid (eventually) and the longer distance work on motorways can be quite lucrative at quiet times.

There is a mix of long term bookings to suit diagrammed work (for example take a train crew to X location to pick up a train every morning) which are normally covered by the same firms and ad hoc requests made through the interface.

Issues with drivers can be reported and too many issues will result in the driver/company being blacklisted from the contract work.

If they don't have availability they don't have to accept the work. Some accept the work then mess about doing local jobs and turn up late.

If you make an ad hoc booking and there's no availability, it's tough. They'll keep trying but you have to wait.

 

[306024]

Everywhere I've worked there has been a contract set up by the procurement department. You need certainty if sending crews by taxi, so a long term contract gives the taxi firm reliable income, and means they'll make sure they don't screw it up.

Of course there is then the daily ad-hoc requirements, where all sorts of local agreements may be in place.

I grew up in a world where putting the word Taxi on a crew diagram was a last resort, but there are sound economic reasons why a taxi may be the best option. Rest assured finance departments examine taxi costs regularly.

 

[baz962]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/storm-babet-disruption-saturday-21-10.256508/

One wonders why there is crew taxi positioning constantly mentioned.

Every other commercial business has staff doing alternative journeys in their own cars. It's 2023, not 1923, and the vast majority of train crews have their own cars nowadays.

How else do they get to/from their normal daily signing-on point?

The point is that you generally drive yourself to the signing on point as that's where you are based. If you have to go elsewhere , that isn't where you are based and so the company are required to get you there or at least pay mileage. In train world that is passing on another train or taxi . There might not even be parking at some locations.

 

[RobShipway]

I am the first to admit that I don't work in the railway industry, but I do know some depots because they where built late 19th Century/Early Twentieth century do not have car parks. I could be wrong, but I believe that the depot at Brighton is one of those sites. It is such that if depot staff need to drive, that I believe that they have to use the station car park and walk through the station to the point where they can cross over to the depot?

Other than that staff at Brighton depot have to make their way to the depot either by foot or public transport. However, if they are based at Brighton Depot, but have to drive a train in Hove sidings then they either, if it is before any services start have to be using a taxis to Hove station or if passenger trains have started then using the train is my understanding.

I have in the past when I worked in Hove, dropped off a friend who was actually based at Brighton Depot dropped him off at Hove Station as he was to change with a driver of a class 377 unit there. I did actually get paid a small amount towards my petrol by Southern, as a thank you as at the time they where having difficulty in getting a taxi to pickup my friend.

 

[berwicksfinest]

For the OP's comment , First I am on the freight operating side so possibly use taxis more than most. Question then.

Who pays for the upkeep of MY car if I'm using it for Business use.
Who pays for the insurance as all of a sudden its now not commuting to and from a place of work, its business use.
Who makes sure that MY car is of a standard fit for railway use.
Who Valets MY car when I've done a 11 hr shift in the pouring rain in a quarry railhead/ballast site or other equally dirty place.

I need to go to a location where I relief another driver or start a train from another location, do I allow the other driver to drive my car equally after I finish my shift some 90 miles away how to I get my car to go home (25 miles away from the depot)

Currently I do all of the above and if the Railway want some part in the above I expect to recompensed handsomely for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the OP's comment , First I am on the freight operating side so possibly use taxis more than most. Question then.

Who pays for the upkeep of MY car if I'm using it for Business use.
Who pays for the insurance as all of a sudden its now not commuting to and from a place of work, its business use.
Who makes sure that MY car is of a standard fit for railway use.
Who Valets MY car when I've done a 11 hr shift in the pouring rain in a quarry railhead/ballast site or other equally dirty place.

You speak as if people using their own cars for work was unusual or unheard of. I agree it isn't suitable for most railway contexts as most trips by taxi would be single journeys, not return ones, but in every area of more or less every industry people do business travel using their own cars, and indeed this tends to be what most business travellers prefer because it involves less hassle than unreliable, badly driven taxis (see the dedicated thread) or the faff of hire cars or unreliable rail services.

The answer is that you're typically paid 45p per mile for doing so (up to 10k miles per year, then 25p thereafter, but most people don't get near that before the likes of company cars enter consideration). Unless you have a gas guzzler, this includes a contribution to wear and tear, depreciation, extra insurance*, cleaning etc.

As for ensuring the car is safe, that's what the MoT is for. There isn't a different requirement based on whether you're driving for work or not, there's just legal roadworthiness.

This is set by HMRC as the maximum allowable tax free amount, and could do with being bumped up a bit in line with inflation (and I suspect will be in due course), that said.

* In many if not most non sales professions, getting Business Class 1 usage either adds nothing or very little to the premium, depending on the insurer.

 

[RobShipway]

For the OP's comment , First I am on the freight operating side so possibly use taxis more than most. Question then.

Who pays for the upkeep of MY car if I'm using it for Business use.
Who pays for the insurance as all of a sudden its now not commuting to and from a place of work, its business use.
Who makes sure that MY car is of a standard fit for railway use.
Who Valets MY car when I've done a 11 hr shift in the pouring rain in a quarry railhead/ballast site or other equally dirty place.

I need to go to a location where I relief another driver or start a train from another location, do I allow the other driver to drive my car equally after I finish my shift some 90 miles away how to I get my car to go home (25 miles away from the depot)

Currently I do all of the above and if the Railway want some part in the above I expect to recompensed handsomely for it.

In the current contract job I do I use company van to transport the new printers that I am being asked to install within hospitals within Hampshire, Sussex and Kent. Now, to pickup that van I have to travel 31.7 miles in my own car, which although my car has business insurance with my car insurance, i would only be able to take one printer and it's tray if I am lucky and would not be more than a hundred pounds in value. Whereas the company van can take 4 printers plus their trays. As part of the money I am paid each day in the contract that is suppose to cover the cost of the 64 miles I am traveling each day in my car.

Now, since a site was close to where I live it was suggested that I leave my car at the site where I pick up the van each day, which has a sign that owners leave their car at their own risk. Now, my concern is that leaving my car overnight at a site where it says my car is left at its own risk would not be covered by my car's insurance and I am not sure that the business insurance on the van would cover for it to be left in the driveway of a private house with four printers within it overnight! So the fact that you can claim for mileage for your car, you are lucky because not all businesses allow for claiming of mileage when people are having to use their own personal car.

As @Bletchleyite says, it does not cost that much more to have cover for basic business usage on a car than without.

 

[baz962]

You speak as if people using their own cars for work was unusual or unheard of. I agree it isn't suitable for most railway contexts as most trips by taxi would be single journeys, not return ones, but in every area of more or less every industry people do business travel using their own cars, and indeed this tends to be what most business travellers prefer because it involves less hassle than unreliable, badly driven taxis (see the dedicated thread) or the faff of hire cars or unreliable rail services.

The answer is that you're typically paid 45p per mile for doing so (up to 10k miles per year, then 25p thereafter, but most people don't get near that before the likes of company cars enter consideration). Unless you have a gas guzzler, this includes a contribution to wear and tear, depreciation, extra insurance*, cleaning etc.

As for ensuring the car is safe, that's what the MoT is for. There isn't a different requirement based on whether you're driving for work or not, there's just legal roadworthiness.

This is set by HMRC as the maximum allowable tax free amount, and could do with being bumped up a bit in line with inflation (and I suspect will be in due course), that said.

* In many if not most non sales professions, getting Business Class 1 usage either adds nothing or very little to the premium, depending on the insurer.

To be fair though that isn't a proper comparison. A lot of those people will be work from home or some such and their job is to visit customers. We aren't doing that and some days you are into your base and back again. Also it's often totally away from the depot. So yesterday my job was book on in London and drive in passenger service to Nottingham and so my car would be in London. My job was then Nottingham to Derby as a passenger to pick up a set to go back to Nottingham. What should I do , tow my car to Nottingham and drive it to Derby and tow it back to Nottingham and then to London to drive home.

 

[deltic]

You speak as if people using their own cars for work was unusual or unheard of. I agree it isn't suitable for most railway contexts as most trips by taxi would be single journeys, not return ones, but in every area of more or less every industry people do business travel using their own cars, and indeed this tends to be what most business travellers prefer because it involves less hassle than unreliable, badly driven taxis (see the dedicated thread) or the faff of hire cars or unreliable rail services.

The answer is that you're typically paid 45p per mile for doing so (up to 10k miles per year, then 25p thereafter, but most people don't get near that before the likes of company cars enter consideration). Unless you have a gas guzzler, this includes a contribution to wear and tear, depreciation, extra insurance*, cleaning etc.

As for ensuring the car is safe, that's what the MoT is for. There isn't a different requirement based on whether you're driving for work or not, there's just legal roadworthiness.

This is set by HMRC as the maximum allowable tax free amount, and could do with being bumped up a bit in line with inflation (and I suspect will be in due course), that said.

* In many if not most non sales professions, getting Business Class 1 usage either adds nothing or very little to the premium, depending on the insurer.

We are generally not allowed to use our own cars for company business. We are actively discouraged from driving in the first place and if there is no other option then hire cars should be used. This is for safety reasons. Out biggest cause of accidents and near missed are all car related. We are not unusual amongst major companies. I remember talking to ICI safety manager many years ago who made the same point - their biggest cause of accidents were down to driving on business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair though that isn't a proper comparison. A lot of those people will be work from home or some such and their job is to visit customers. We aren't doing that and some days you are into your base and back again. Also it's often totally away from the depot. So yesterday my job was book on in London and drive in passenger service to Nottingham and so my car would be in London. My job was then Nottingham to Derby as a passenger to pick up a set to go back to Nottingham. What should I do , tow my car to Nottingham and drive it to Derby and tow it back to Nottingham and then to London to drive home.

I agree own car isn't generally viable for most rail purposes, but I was just making the point that it's very common indeed.

We are generally not allowed to use our own cars for company business. We are actively discouraged from driving in the first place and if there is no other option then hire cars should be used. This is for safety reasons. Out biggest cause of accidents and near missed are all car related. We are not unusual amongst major companies. I remember talking to ICI safety manager many years ago who made the same point - their biggest cause of accidents were down to driving on business.

I've never worked for a company that prohibited own car use, and it's not at all common to do so (indeed those who travel often will have a company car, which is in effect a company funded personal car). The risks mostly come from how the people drive and what they do e.g. fiddling with sat navs and phones, driving tired and speeding/aggressive driving, not from the vehicle.

 

[baz962]

I agree own car isn't generally viable for most rail purposes, but I was just making the point that it's very common indeed.



I've never worked for a company that prohibited own car use, and it's not at all common to do so (indeed those who travel often will have a company car, which is in effect a company funded personal car). The risks mostly come from how the people drive and what they do e.g. fiddling with sat navs and phones, driving tired and speeding/aggressive driving, not from the vehicle.

Also it's better in many regards. Sometimes our situation is very fluid and can change. I will give you an example as I'm one of those very helpful drivers. Real scenario a few months ago. This is how it went. Driver we need a train working from London to Corby. You are our only driver in London , will you do it. You don't have to as you wouldn't be able to get back to London within your hours , but we have a spare man at Kettering who can relieve you on route but won't make it to London in time. Me of course ( I live in a village near Bedford and can just go home) . Driver relieved me at Bedford.
How this would of gone had my car been in London. Driver can you work this train. Me . Stop there you will have to cancel the train because I can't get back to London within my hours , but I have to come back because my car is there.

 

[RobShipway]

To be fair though that isn't a proper comparison. A lot of those people will be work from home or some such and their job is to visit customers. We aren't doing that and some days you are into your base and back again. Also it's often totally away from the depot. So yesterday my job was book on in London and drive in passenger service to Nottingham and so my car would be in London. My job was then Nottingham to Derby as a passenger to pick up a set to go back to Nottingham. What should I do , tow my car to Nottingham and drive it to Derby and tow it back to Nottingham and then to London to drive home.

If that was me, I would be travelling back to London as a passenger on a train back to London if available and if the parking is not near the London terminus then be using the bus or tube to get back to my car. The cost of the train back, bus/tube fare should be paid back in full in expenses. If the last train back to London has already gone from Nottingham, then it is taxi all the way to the car park where car is parked up with the TOC picking up the charge for the taxi.

 

[Gloster]

A few thoughts.

Is there a health and safety element? Do you want your train to be driven by someone who has just fought their way through rush-hour traffic to get to an outlying stabling point? There will be people who are quite comfortable driving a train, but nervy when driving a car. Being taxied may not be a PNB level of rest, but it can avoid a lot of strain on a driver.

Who is responsible for ensuring that if a driver is down for a turn requiring him to drive his car he actually has a car: cars need maintenance (which can take longer than planned), get stolen, damaged, etc? Does the driver have the responsibility of organising a replacement (at whose cost?) or find that he loses a day’s pay and leave the railway looking for cover?

Related to the above is a suspicion that it is the bean-counter end of management who like to push more and more responsibility for problems onto staff (“It’s not HappyRail’s fault: it’s the driver who failed to bring his car“). I would think that many lower down in management know that it would be a silly idea and that they would not be able to push it through.

 

[berwicksfinest]

You speak as if people using their own cars for work was unusual or unheard of. I agree it isn't suitable for most railway contexts as most trips by taxi would be single journeys, not return ones, but in every area of more or less every industry people do business travel using their own cars, and indeed this tends to be what most business travellers prefer because it involves less hassle than unreliable, badly driven taxis (see the dedicated thread) or the faff of hire cars or unreliable rail services.

The answer is that you're typically paid 45p per mile for doing so (up to 10k miles per year, then 25p thereafter, but most people don't get near that before the likes of company cars enter consideration). Unless you have a gas guzzler, this includes a contribution to wear and tear, depreciation, extra insurance*, cleaning etc.

As for ensuring the car is safe, that's what the MoT is for. There isn't a different requirement based on whether you're driving for work or not, there's just legal roadworthiness.

This is set by HMRC as the maximum allowable tax free amount, and could do with being bumped up a bit in line with inflation (and I suspect will be in due course), that said.

* In many if not most non sales professions, getting Business Class 1 usage either adds nothing or very little to the premium, depending on the insurer.

Oh I agree, people using their car for business use is certainly not unheard of, However I begrudge allowing MY car to be used for company use. Thats not what I bought it for.

My company has fuel cards for the van but, we are not allowed to book our own taxis so given a free reign with the fuel cards, I've more chance of Kylie Minogue taking me for a beer (sanitised version)

Correct that is what an MOT is for, but currently my car has an engine management light on awaiting a new vapouriser, that is enough to ground a works van until repairs are effected, does that mean fault on car use a taxi ??

You put way too much faith in our wonderful government, but thats another story

 

[ComUtoR]

Logistics and common sense aside, I only have one issue.

How would you 'Mandate it' ? If train crew are 'required' to use their own vehicle then it will need a fundamental change to their terms and conditions. How would this impact recruitment ? Would a driving licence and own be required as part of employment criteria ?

I have seen some FOC jobs that have required a driving licence but not yet seen one for a TOC.

 

[baz962]

If that was me, I would be travelling back to London as a passenger on a train back to London if available and if the parking is not near the London terminus then be using the bus or tube to get back to my car. The cost of the train back, bus/tube fare should be paid back in full in expenses. If the last train back to London has already gone from Nottingham, then it is taxi all the way to the car park where car is parked up with the TOC picking up the charge for the taxi.

My point was if I have driven a train to Nottingham and then have to go to Derby for a different unit , how do I drive from Nottingham to Derby if my car is in London. I can't drive both my car and the train. And it was three hours before I drove the unit I get from Derby to London via Nottingham. I wouldn't have time to get back to London and drive to Derby.

 

[alistairlees]

GTR spends over £20m a year on taxis. See this latest procurement notice: https://www.sell2wales.gov.wales/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=SEP452182 (no idea why it's on the Sell to Wales site too!)

 

[baz962]

GTR spends over £20m a year on taxis. See this latest procurement notice: https://www.sell2wales.gov.wales/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=SEP452182 (no idea why it's on the Sell to Wales site too!)

If we used our own cars or they gave us company cars it would cost a fortune. Only to probably still need to provide taxis when we end up nowhere near our cars.